[Redway]

Like someone else said first and second wave’s where it’s it.

As for me personally I’m more interested in seeing the subtle idea that a woman marries into a man’s family die out completely. That and the surname tho t. Patriarchy in the context of marriage and family.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Redway

Like someone else said first and second wave’s where it’s it.

As for me personally I’m more interested in seeing the subtle idea that a woman marries into a man’s family die out completely. That and the surname tho t. Patriarchy in the context of marriage and family.

In most marriages I know, it seems more like the man joins the woman's family, than the other way around.

[Marches]

Feminism is an outdated movement that has lost its meaning through some of the rediculous claims by the most vocal third wave feminists

We don’t need to have groups or movements like this anymore just advocate for rights and equal treatment of ALL people anyway I don’t see what’s wrong with that

[MTVN]

I know the dictionary definition of feminism is just equality of the sexes but in practice it's now associated with a militancy that puts me off. I do find that hardcore feminists can be intolerant of other people's views on gender and they dont make it an inclusive movement. People get criticised for saying they are not feminists but if someone who's right of centre identifies as a feminist they'll often be told that they're not by feminist groups and that their politics are incompatible with it

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I know the dictionary definition of feminism is just equality of the sexes but in practice it's now associated with a militancy that puts me off. I do find that hardcore feminists can be intolerant of other people's views on gender and they dont make it an inclusive movement. People get criticised for saying they are not feminists but if someone who's right of centre identifies as a feminist they'll often be told that they're not by feminist groups and that their politics are incompatible with it

When I see posts like this It just reminds me of Muslims and ISIS, like Muslims are one thing, it’s a defined religion, just because ISIS say they are Muslims doesn’t mean they are when they act in the complete opposite way that Islam teaches

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Smithy

When I see posts like this It just reminds me of Muslims and ISIS, like Muslims are one thing, it’s a defined religion, just because ISIS say they are Muslims doesn’t mean they are when they act in the complete opposite way that Islam teaches

I suppose that's true but someone can still support equality of the sexes without identifying as a feminist whereas you can't follow Islam and not identify as a Muslim. 'Feminism' is just a word in this sense really that some people are happy to identify as and some people are not, it's not as powerful as someone's religion

[ethanjames]

for me feminism is equal rights whatever the gender identity!!!

[MTVN]

Admittedly this is quite an extreme example but it was a story this week, if I tried to tell this lot 'Oh yeah I'm a feminist too' I'd probably be met with a roundhouse kick

https://order-order.com/2018/01/29/f...sh-patriarchy/

Queer feminist fight club Femme Feral offers women and femme-identifying people a place to express their rage about the Conservative government through body-slams and dropkicks.”

[bots]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Admittedly this is quite an extreme example but it was a story this week, if I tried to tell this lot 'Oh yeah I'm a feminist too' I'd probably be met with a roundhouse kick

https://order-order.com/2018/01/29/f...sh-patriarchy/

ha ha

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Admittedly this is quite an extreme example but it was a story this week, if I tried to tell this lot 'Oh yeah I'm a feminist too' I'd probably be met with a roundhouse kick

https://order-order.com/2018/01/29/f...sh-patriarchy/

Well yes, these seem to be extremest nutters. Using feminism as an excuse for violence and being a dickhead. I would not say these people are feminists in any sense of the word tbh, though its not really my place to tell people they are not feminists I guess.

This to me comes across as quite similar to the religious extremists who use religion as an excuse for violence.

We (or normal people would not) would not judge an entire religion because of a few nutters surely. So the people who reckon feminists are all man hating loons who want women to rule the world and men eradicated completely...well those people are quite silly and tbh it sounds like they are just looking for an excuse to hate feminism in general.

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well yes, these seem to be extremest nutters. Using feminism as an excuse for violence and being a dickhead. I would not say these people are feminists in any sense of the word tbh, though its not really my place to tell people they are not feminists I guess.

This to me comes across as quite similar to the religious extremists who use religion as an excuse for violence.

We (or normal people would not) would not judge an entire religion because of a few nutters surely. So the people who reckon feminists are all man hating loons who want women to rule the world and men eradicated completely...well those people are quite silly and tbh it sounds like they are just looking for an excuse to hate feminism in general.

Did I not just say this

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Smithy

Did I not just say this

Heh. Yes you did, sorry. I just waffled on in more words about it

[Alf]

It means hair dye and tattoos

[waterhog]

Originally Posted by lewis111

There's loads of debates as to wether Courtney can be a feminist because she's a man that dresses as a woman
People think Ann saying women are equal already doesn't make her a feminist

And obviously Donal Trump recent stated he wasn't a feminist

So what does the word and movement mean to you, and by your definition are you a feminist?

I am disappointed - if you was a true feminist - you would have let me go first lewis - chivalry is dead.

[Maru]

It means equal opportunity for women, but still not forgetting what it means to be a woman...

But if I'm honest, I'm not a fan of these labels and I feel like group identity should really be a thing of the past. Being proud of being a woman as an individual though is different because it's a descriptor, but I just don't think that we should be wearing labels as a badge to be included in "communities", etc... I used to think that was such a great thing, a great way to make your voice heard. However, that thinking actually leads to people being sheltered from the issues since once you are apart of the group, you have to "subscribe" to it's views... therefore if you go out of your way to make issues known within the group, your "card" can be pulled and it becomes taboo. It's just hegemony disguised as "equal rights"...

I think that's such an outdated way of doing things. It's just weird to me... that in the 90's, it was all about non-conformity, shedding stereotypes and getting rid of group think and eschewing labels... and now where we are in 2018, trying to get back into group-think and wearing labels and it's just such a huge step backwards imho. It seems like individualism is understanding a re-evaluation in our culture...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Maru

It means equal opportunity for women, but still not forgetting what it means to be a woman...

But if I'm honest, I'm not a fan of these labels and I feel like group identity should really be a thing of the past. Being proud of being a woman as an individual though is different because it's a descriptor, but I just don't think that we should be wearing labels as a badge to be included in "communities", etc... I used to think that was such a great thing, a great way to make your voice heard. However, that thinking actually leads to people being sheltered from the issues since once you are apart of the group, you have to "subscribe" to it's views... therefore if you go out of your way to make issues known within the group, your "card" can be pulled and it becomes taboo. It's just hegemony disguised as "equal rights"...

I think that's such an outdated way of doing things. It's just weird to me... that in the 90's, it was all about non-conformity, shedding stereotypes and getting rid of group think and eschewing labels... and now where we are in 2018, trying to get back into group-think and wearing labels and it's just such a huge step backwards imho. It seems like individualism is understanding a re-evaluation in our culture...

I agree Maru, I'd much rather be part of a community of a thousand different nuanced and personally considered views where everyone respectfully (or even non-respectfully!) shares them... Than one where everyone sings from the same hymn sheet and pats each other on the back for how correct they are.

That's one of my main gripes with these movements... You hear exactly the same buzzwords and phrases, said in the same way, in the same context, but coming from different people and I just think... How much of this is just echoed from the last thing you read on the topic? Are any of these your own words? Have you even really given it all that much thought?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier[B

;9849027]I agree Maru, I'd much rather be part of a community of a thousand different nuanced and personally considered views where everyone respectfully (or even non-respectfully!) shares them... Than one where everyone sings from the same hymn sheet and pats each other on the back for how correct they are.[/B]

That's one of my main gripes with these movements... You hear exactly the same buzzwords and phrases, said in the same way, in the same context, but coming from different people and I just think... How much of this is just echoed from the last thing you read on the topic? Are any of these your own words? Have you even really given it all that much thought?

Perfectly put

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Maru

It means equal opportunity for women, but still not forgetting what it means to be a woman...

But if I'm honest, I'm not a fan of these labels and I feel like group identity should really be a thing of the past. Being proud of being a woman as an individual though is different because it's a descriptor, but I just don't think that we should be wearing labels as a badge to be included in "communities", etc... I used to think that was such a great thing, a great way to make your voice heard. However, that thinking actually leads to people being sheltered from the issues since once you are apart of the group, you have to "subscribe" to it's views... therefore if you go out of your way to make issues known within the group, your "card" can be pulled and it becomes taboo. It's just hegemony disguised as "equal rights"...

I think that's such an outdated way of doing things. It's just weird to me... that in the 90's, it was all about non-conformity, shedding stereotypes and getting rid of group think and eschewing labels... and now where we are in 2018, trying to get back into group-think and wearing labels and it's just such a huge step backwards imho. It seems like individualism is understanding a re-evaluation in our culture...

Completely agree Maru. A big step backwards. Regressive - not ‘progressive’.

[Livia]

I just watched The Big Question on TV, and one of the discussions was about feminism. And what struck me was this: Women have been oppressed by men for millennia. Things are changing now... we've come an awful long way. And now... men want to join in the discussion. Not just join in, they want to lead the discussion. While I watched the men on the show tell women what feminism is and how they should deal with it, I wondered what would happen if it was a discussion about racial oppression, and there were a bunch of white males in the front row saying, look, we understand your feelings of oppression... We know how that feels... we're going to help... and this is what we're going to do...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

I just watched The Big Question on TV, and one of the discussions was about feminism. And what struck me was this: Women have been oppressed by men for millennia. Things are changing now... we've come an awful long way. And now... men want to join in the discussion. Not just join in, they want to lead the discussion. While I watched the men on the show tell women what feminism is and how they should deal with it, I wondered what would happen if it was a discussion about racial oppression, and there were a bunch of white males in the front row saying, look, we understand your feelings of oppression... We know how that feels... we're going to help... and this is what we're going to do...

yep

[bots]

Originally Posted by Livia

I just watched The Big Question on TV, and one of the discussions was about feminism. And what struck me was this: Women have been oppressed by men for millennia. Things are changing now... we've come an awful long way. And now... men want to join in the discussion. Not just join in, they want to lead the discussion. While I watched the men on the show tell women what feminism is and how they should deal with it, I wondered what would happen if it was a discussion about racial oppression, and there were a bunch of white males in the front row saying, look, we understand your feelings of oppression... We know how that feels... we're going to help... and this is what we're going to do...

it makes a lot of sense for men to control what equality means to a women

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

I just watched The Big Question on TV, and one of the discussions was about feminism. And what struck me was this: Women have been oppressed by men for millennia. Things are changing now... we've come an awful long way. And now... men want to join in the discussion. Not just join in, they want to lead the discussion. While I watched the men on the show tell women what feminism is and how they should deal with it, I wondered what would happen if it was a discussion about racial oppression, and there were a bunch of white males in the front row saying, look, we understand your feelings of oppression... We know how that feels... we're going to help... and this is what we're going to do...

Have the women who are part of the discussion today been oppressed by the men who are part of the discussion today for millenia? This part always confuses me; this idea that "women" and "men" are some sort of cohesive sentient entity with a memory stretching back beyond the lifespan of the individual. It doesn't really make sense.

That's not to say the millenia of oppression doesn't still affect society today; it does in many ways and that's something that society as a whole needs to address. But the fact is, many (most) of the men who are part of the discussion today have never oppressed anyone in any way, and so the idea that they should be excluded from the discussion of achieving equality is ludicrous and entirely misses the point. Of course men shouldn't lead or dominate the discussion, but nor should women lead or dominate the discussion... And anyone who thinks they should, frankly, is not seeking equality.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Have the women who are part of the discussion today been oppressed by the men who are part of the discussion today for millenia? This part always confuses me; this idea that "women" and "men" are some sort of cohesive sentient entity with a memory stretching back beyond the lifespan of the individual. It doesn't really make sense.

That's not to say the millenia of oppression doesn't still affect society today; it does in many ways and that's something that society as a whole needs to address. But the fact is, many (most) of the men who are part of the discussion today have never oppressed anyone in any way, and so the idea that they should be excluded from the discussion of achieving equality is ludicrous and entirely misses the point. Of course men shouldn't lead or dominate the discussion, but nor should women lead or dominate the discussion... And anyone who thinks they should, frankly, is not seeking equality.

Well... firstly, no, they were not the same men that have oppressed women over millennia. In much the same way that Britain is no longer an Empire, oppressing other countries but we're constantly reminded of our input... You only have to have a glance through Serious Debates to know that Britain is STILL accused of all kinds of stuff that happened before any of us was born... what we did in the Raj... what we did in Africa.... etc. etc. I don't see how it's different, really. People IN those countries don't want British people involved in affairs affecting their country. And in much the same way, although the men alive now have not oppressed women over millennia, I for one don't want men to be leading a discussion about feminism.

Of course, that doesn't mean I think men should not be involved in the discussion. We need men on board... but this is about women. And while most men are very supportive and thoughtful... you've only got to look at some of the aggression that surfaces, from some men, whenever there's a discussion about feminism and women's rights.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Well... firstly, no, they were not the same men that have oppressed women over millennia. In much the same way that Britain is no longer an Empire, oppressing other countries but we're constantly reminded of our input... You only have to have a glance through Serious Debates to know that Britain is STILL accused of all kinds of stuff that happened before any of us was born... what we did in the Raj... what we did in Africa.... etc. etc. I don't see how it's different, really. People IN those countries don't want British people involved in affairs affecting their country. And in much the same way, although the men alive now have not oppressed women over millennia, I for one don't want men to be leading a discussion about feminism.

Of course, that doesn't mean I think men should not be involved in the discussion. We need men on board... but this is about women. And while most men are very supportive and thoughtful... you've only got to look at some of the aggression that surfaces, from some men, whenever there's a discussion about feminism and women's rights.

Very well said Livia.

Of course male allys is a good thing. But men trying to basically...take over and tell women they are doing feminism wrong, well...thats a bit not good.

And so many men cannot help but dominate a conversation. Its socialized into them. Thats not an insult as socialization is extremely hard to fight (I have tried and failed many many times) so men being socialized to dominate and be strong, while women are socialized to be 'nice' and put others first..well its not a good combination is it...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Very well said Livia.

Of course male allys is a good thing. But men trying to basically...take over and tell women they are doing feminism wrong, well...thats a bit not good.

And so many men cannot help but dominate a conversation. Its socialized into them. Thats not an insult as socialization is extremely hard to fight (I have tried and failed many many times) so men being socialized to dominate and be strong, while women are socialized to be 'nice' and put others first..well its not a good combination is it...

I have another theory, and I know this will be a bit unpopular and it is slightly off-topic, but here goes...

Whenever I've met a transsexual person, or see them on TV, I've been struck by how much less dramatic and loud the female to male transsexuals are. You really don't see them in the press, demanding their rights, crying "I'm a REAL man!". Male to female transsexuals, however, have been men all their lives and they are used to standing up and saying, right, this is what I think and you're going to listen.