[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Don't be so self-important Kizzy; I quite explicitly stated that Vicky "is the worst for it".

You also quoted me and mentioned Niamh.. As you pointed out there is enough prejudice on this forum already without your unnecessary accusatory comments.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Don't be so self-important Kizzy; I quite explicitly stated that Vicky "is the worst for it".

..but how is Kizzy being ‘self important’...when her post was specifically quoted as ‘exhibit A’, to highlight your thoughts...to respond to that isn’t being ‘self-important’...you said that you explicitly stated that another member ‘was the worst’...but it wasn’t that member’s post or posts if you feel there were multiples...that you gave as ‘an example’ of your concerns..

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's one Kizzy. That was easy enough.

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

...’I am perfectly willing to agree that it’s open for reasonable, considered debate..that my main concern is consistency’...apologies, I struggle to bold with this device, TS...but I really am confused..because you’ve said Vicky is ‘the worst’...but that this topic is open for considered debate...yet you’ve interacted with Vicky in the thread so far as I can see...and didn’t express any concerns you’ve just stated...in your interactions, if concerns were being felt...was that not the perfect opportunity and opening for reasonable and considered debate...but you didn’t pursue it with that opening..?...and if you feel that Vicky ‘is the worst’...then surely there’s consistency...because if there wasn’t consistency then a ‘worst’ couldn’t be felt..?....

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's one Kizzy. That was easy enough.

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

...I don’t feel there is mocking about ‘blokes pretending to be women’...quite clear anger, yes I would agree...but (...from my perspective of any recently related thread../..topic..)...that anger, or fear I should maybe say...has been quite specific of possible vulnerabilities ...the fear of creating an opening if someone was able to ‘identify as’...with ‘self-declaration’...when there has been no transitioning..?...hmmm, I may not agree with Vicky in all areas, but her concerns are understandable and very valid also...so surely expressing those concerns can’t be deemed in any way as ‘phobic’....otherwise we all silence ourselves.....and surely there have been some debates in parliament when discussing legislations on ‘self-declaration’...because others have the same concerns as Vicky....and progression would never be a possibility if these concerns were not expressed and discussed...but you haven’t discussed them though TS, you’ve condemned them ....which is confusing....

[Ammi]

...I don’t always agree with Vicky on ‘transsexual topics’ but I do understand her concerns and fears...and her concerns and fears are quite consistent, I feel...there is no inconsistency in them...many seem to come from personal experiences which sadly have been quite negative...which makes them more understandable...so something which is good to express and create openings for discussion...Niamh also understands her concerns and fears, I feel...so is very open to discussion also....


...just specific to the topic and Paris Lees...I’ve just googled her because I wasn’t familiar with her ‘story’...

While in prison Lees decided to change: "I just thought, 'I'm this silly teenage boy in a prison cell who has made a huge mistake and I want to be this happy person'

...so she identified herself as a ‘boy’ with that statement...(..there may be many other statements also, I don’t know..)...but she’s relating aspects of her life...which is basically what Anne did in the ‘debate’ on The Wright Show...saying ‘you where a boy’, so you have understanding of ‘boys clubs’...Paris would have understandings in some aspects of her life from the perspective of ‘male’, which was what Anne was inferring...and Paris is relating one of those very perspectives of her time in prison..?...

...it’s often said about ‘male priveledge’...and I do struggle a bit with that I have to say....just because I don’t feel anyone who has felt ‘incorrectly gendered’ through their lives...would never have felt a sense of ‘priveledge’ to be their society recognised gender through that time in their lives...to be priveledged, you would have to ‘feel’ that priveledge...and to me...that would feel impossible..so the comparisons can’t be made or are hard to be made in the same way with males who do feel completely correctly gendered....because that person has never felt any ‘priveledge’...all they’ve felt is unhappiness and a sense of ‘not fitting’ ...obviously this is just male to female specifically because of the topic of discussion being Anne and Paris...but I do also feel it’s relevant in many discussions to discuss a ‘whole story’ of someone’s life because of the individuality of life stories ..and how specifics have relevance’s to experiences which form opinions and stances etc...as Paris herself has obviously spoken about her specific experiences...obviously how Anne addressed it, didn’t lend to any ‘discussion’ or debate, in her directness and tactlessness...but because if her own ‘story’ of her Aspergers, it’s difficult to say whether her comment was ‘deliberate’ and intended to ‘shut down’....which makes for the interest of this news story also...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's one Kizzy. That was easy enough.

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

I think that's extremely unfair tbqh TS and I'm pretty surprised to hear this coming from you especially. Vicky has put her concerns about the subject across in a very well thought out and well read manner, I would say she's probably one of the most open to listening posters in SDs. Just because you don't agree with her POV on this particular subject doesn't mean that her opinions are invalid or phobic, I haven't heard her say something like "oh bloke in a dress lololol" her opinions come from actual concerns for women, whether you agree with that or not

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I think that's extremely unfair tbqh TS and I'm pretty surprised to hear this coming from you especially. Vicky has put her concerns about the subject across in a very well thought out and well read manner, I would say she's probably one the most open to listening posters in SDs. Just because you don't agree with her POV on this particular subject doesn't mean that her opinions are invalid or phobic, I haven't heard her say something like "oh bloke in a dress lololol" her opinions come from actual concerns for women, whether you agree with that or not

I think it obvious many women share vicky’s concerns on this as the reactions of many women over issues such as non-transitioned men using women’s bathrooms, has highlighted.

But TS is not a woman so I question why he thinks he has the right to not only question such concerns that would not affect him personally - but to attach labels to women who have them. The potential risks to women, not men, are obvious.

[chuff me dizzy]

I dont think she said anything wrong

[Northern Monkey]

I think this person of trans origin should stop being such a snowflake and grow some balls.Take it on the chin.
I don’t think old Frosty Drawers meant any harm.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I think this person of trans origin should stop being such a snowflake and grow some balls.Take it on the chin.
I don’t think old Frosty Drawers meant any harm.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I think this person of trans origin should stop being such a snowflake and grow some balls.Take it on the chin.
I don’t think old Frosty Drawers meant any harm.

Bwaahaaaa I spit my coffee!

[user104658]

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

You're braver than me for saying this but I have to agree with you. Some of the things that have been said about trans people on here recently are quite depressing.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

A moderator's role though is not really to play thought police, which is what we are getting into when we are starting to hand select what is "unacceptable" conversation versus what isn't. It should only be to manage discussions so that they topics don't fall entirely apart and to moderate for obvious baiting and incendiary behavior. SD is a boiler room, and I think that that will never change. The goal should be to moderate as little as possible. (anything else is "curation"). And sometimes less is done of what is needed because of the thin line between censorship and guiding discussion... otherwise it'll turn into a cliquey turf war.

I'm still for creating a relationships/LGBT/humanities section, as I think this forum really needs it. It will help alleviate the pressure I think. In which case, I nominate Jamie89 for President of said section.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Maru

A moderator's role though is not really to play thought police, which is what we are getting into when we are starting to hand select what is "unacceptable" conversation versus what isn't. It should only be to manage discussions so that they topics don't fall entirely apart and to moderate for obvious baiting and incendiary behavior. SD is a boiler room, and I think that that will never change. The goal should be to moderate as little as possible. (anything else is "curation"). And sometimes less is done of what is needed because of the thin line between censorship and guiding discussion... otherwise it'll turn into a cliquey turf war.

I'm still for creating a relationships/LGBT/humanities section, as I think this forum really needs it. It will help alleviate the pressure I think. In which case, I nominate Jamie89 for President of said section.

Make TiBB Gay Again

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

I agree with the first paragraph, I'm not sure if its the mods' personal prejudices though - its just a lack of consistency.

Its like theres some sort of heirachy. You can be a little bit transphobic or islamophobic, just no sexism or homophobia.. racism is somewhere in the middle. Idgi either.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

What... Where

Where are they the accepted targets of vitriol on here?
Exactly what would be so unacceptable, if you take issue with a comment quote it then it might highlight any discrepancy that's been overlooked by every moderator and the rest of the forum.

[Matthew.]

not necessarily transphobic, just an ill-timed comment and i certainly don’t think she meant any malice by it.

as previously said, anne has aspergers syndrome. so she sometimes doesn’t think before speaking. transphobic is not the right word here.

[Mokka]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

Well then stop putting people in groups, and start treating people as individuals, and treat each case on their own merit.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Alf

Well then stop putting people in groups, and start treating people as individuals, and treat each case on their own merit.

A nonsense post. He isn't putting people into groups, he's talking about comments targeted towards people who share a common trait. Whether that be of a certain colour, gender, race, religion, sexuality etc.

That's not grouping people. If a comment ridicules black people for example, then it's disparaging to everyone who is black not just an individual.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

A nonsense post. He isn't putting people into groups, he's talking about comments targeted towards people who share a common trait. Whether that be of a certain colour, gender, race, religion, sexuality etc.

That's not grouping people. If a comment ridicules black people for example, then it's disparaging to everyone who is black not just an individual.

Please don't disagree with me, my feelings are hurt when you do that, you're committing a hate crime by hurting my feelings, I feel like you're ridiculing me by not agreeing with me.

I'm only kidding, I ain't a con man.

[smudgie]

It's all this "Branding" that gets on my tits.
Everything has to be have a label, be a this or a that.

[Marsh.]

Thinking someone can't hold an educated opinion on something because of a lack of understanding/research on something is different to saying they can't understand something because of their genitalia.

That's the difference between TS' stance that you weren't "qualified" to fully have an opinion on that games debate versus Anne insinuating this other woman couldn't hold an opinion simply because she used to have a penis I would imagine.

And before I get pushed into a corner and threatened with my life, that's just my understanding of the situation.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Thinking someone can't hold an educated opinion on something because of a lack of understanding/research on something is different to saying they can't understand something because of their genitalia.

That's the difference between TS' stance that you weren't "qualified" to fully have an opinion on that games debate versus Anne insinuating this other woman couldn't hold an opinion simply because she used to have a penis I would imagine.

And before I get pushed into a corner and threatened with my life, that's just my understanding of the situation.

Right now I'm less interested in Annes take on things and more interested why my take on this subject is being labeled 'vitriol' :/