[Maru]

There's a growing backlash against random celebs, journalists, musicians, actors, "civil rights" organizations, etc speaking on behalf of all of us. It's still smallish, but it's definitely growing. I think long-term, we will look back and say that mob mentality has been bad for society. This goes beyond just politics. Businesses and everyday people have had their lives destroyed or disrupted in some manner because random groups of people with a common cause have found a target they can domineer, intimidate and otherwise play with their lives... occasionally there's another person in front of that that says the "right" thing in the media and then the mob use that to start petitions, run disinformation campaigns, target small businesses, etc to try to destroy those they perceive as a threat... this links back to our culture... modern day western culture has always been a bit of a busybody, because western culture knows best... much of what is happening currently can be blamed on liberalism and Hollywood, sure, but exceptionalism paved the way to supporting that framework, which made it possible for any of those movements to be cultivated, much less thrive. If that isn't corrected in our culture, it doesn't matter if liberalism in it's current manifestation were to reform... there would be some other domineering influence tomorrow that takes it's place that picks up where it left off...

[Withano]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I nominate John Venables - but don't bother with any effigy, just burn the real thing.

Or if we are strictly talking 'Political Figures only, how about Dianne Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn?

...so your previous outrage at Jones was? Him nominating the wrong person? Cos actually you and him are sharing the exact same thought process. Some might call that hypocritical idk.

[bots]

like him or hate him, trump is a democratically elected president. We got annoyed when outside influences got involved in the brexit vote, the only ones that can change things are the american people, and outside protests are just going to strengthen their resolve to keep him

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

like him or hate him, trump is a democratically elected president. We got annoyed when outside influences got involved in the brexit vote, the only ones that can change things are the american people, and outside protests are just going to strengthen their resolve to keep him

Well said BOTS.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

like him or hate him, trump is a democratically elected president. We got annoyed when outside influences got involved in the brexit vote, the only ones that can change things are the american people, and outside protests are just going to strengthen their resolve to keep him

Well yes but he's the democratically elected president of The United States, by US citizens, and any protest about him coming to the UK / interacting with the UK is surely a protest against him having any political influence over the UK... Where he is not an elected anything.

I mean I would understand your point if there was a planeload of British folks heading to Washington to stage an anti-Trump demonstration... But that's not what's happening. No one is protesting against the democratically elected Trump doing whatever it is he does in his own country... Only when he boards a plane and brings his rhetoric to nations where he is not president?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well yes but he's the democratically elected president of The United States, by US citizens, and any protest about him coming to the UK / interacting with the UK is surely a protest against him having any political influence over the UK... Where he is not an elected anything.

I mean I would understand your point if there was a planeload of British folks heading to Washington to stage an anti-Trump demonstration... But that's not what's happening. No one is protesting against the democratically elected Trump doing whatever it is he does in his own country... Only when he boards a plane and brings his rhetoric to nations where he is not president?

He was invited by our government as the US President. What political influence exactly is he trying to impose on the Brits? Do some of the British Public now think they can dictate what high ranking Western politicians the government can invite to the UK!

I think some, like Jones, are getting a bit too big for their boots. He isn’t a mass murderer! People who vocalise what a fool the man is sure act as though they see him as a considerable threat.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Withano

...so your previous outrage at Jones was? Him nominating the wrong person? Cos actually you and him are sharing the exact same thought process. Some might call that hypocritical idk.

WHY do you persistently MISINTERPRET and MISREPRESENT what I have written?

Is it because - by your own admission - you refuse to READ my posts because of my 'random capitalisation' and therefore are totally CLUELESS about what I have ACTUALLY said?

In any event, I CHALLENGE you to reproduce here ANY example of my 'Previous outrage' at Jones.

Go on, QUOTE me - you have NEVER accepted similar challenges from me before when you have misrepresented what I have said.

[Jack_]

I've met Owen twice and he was nothing but lovely, approachable and down to earth. Some of the vitriol in this thread is absurd.

What's more is (and I'm really getting tired of having to explain this, I lose brain cells every time I do) protesting cannot be anti-democratic, because the act of protest is quite literally democracy in action. There are no two ways about this. It doesn't matter whether you think the cause is worthy, or stupid, or pointless, people are entitled to protest about whatever they like - regardless of whether or not it will have any effect. And THAT'S democracy.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Jack_

I've met Owen twice and he was nothing but lovely, approachable and down to earth. Some of the vitriol in this thread is absurd.

What's more is (and I'm really getting tired of having to explain this, I lose brain cells every time I do) protesting cannot be anti-democratic, because the act of protest is quite literally democracy in action. There are no two ways about this. It doesn't matter whether you think the cause is worthy, or stupid, or pointless, people are entitled to protest about whatever they like - regardless of whether or not it will have any effect. And THAT'S democracy.

Fair points Jack, but I have met Nigel Farage numerous times and have also found him always friendly, ultra-civil and polite, sincere, very intelligent and knowledgeable, and very approachable, but such DIRECT personal experience would not sway any anti-Farage members on here to change their dislike of him.

Also, I agree that PEACEFUL protests ARE a part of 'Democracy In Action' but, experience has shown us - time and time again - that these protests are anything but peaceful, and that is down to the Anti-Democratic factions which are behind these protests, the Political Agitators employed by them to take control of the way in which the protests develop ensuing violence and anarchy, and the mindless unknowing sheep who go along with the protests.

I would also argue that Democracy In Action could also be defined as accepting State Protocol.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Jack_

I've met Owen twice and he was nothing but lovely, approachable and down to earth. Some of the vitriol in this thread is absurd.

What's more is (and I'm really getting tired of having to explain this, I lose brain cells every time I do) protesting cannot be anti-democratic, because the act of protest is quite literally democracy in action. There are no two ways about this. It doesn't matter whether you think the cause is worthy, or stupid, or pointless, people are entitled to protest about whatever they like - regardless of whether or not it will have any effect. And THAT'S democracy.

Democracy when it suits as the very same people are those desperately trying to overturn a democratic vote by British people to leave the EU. So please don’t preach about democracy whilst one of our oldest acts of democracy - the vote - is being ignored by those who insist on having their way despite the result.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Democracy when it suits as the very same people are those desperately trying to overturn a democratic vote by British people to leave the EU. So please don’t preach about democracy whilst one of our oldest acts of democracy - the vote - is being ignored by those who insist on having their way despite the result.

Great point Brillo.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Democracy when it suits as the very same people are those desperately trying to overturn a democratic vote by British people to leave the EU. So please don’t preach about democracy whilst one of our oldest acts of democracy - the vote - is being ignored by those who insist on having their way despite the result.

To be fair, I don't know of many people who are just saying "ignore the vote", just that there should be a second vote to confirm that it is indeed what the majority of people still want.

I do understand people's reasons for not wanting "vote after vote" (although, I personally don't think one follow up vote on such a huge undertaking as brexit is unwarranted)... HOWEVER... you can't claim that a second vote is undemocratic. If a follow up vote was to suggest that "the will of the people" has dramatically changed, then accepting that would be entirely democratic... arguably, more democratic than dogmatically accepting the outcome of one snapshot vote.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To be fair, I don't know of many people who are just saying "ignore the vote", just that there should be a second vote to confirm that it is indeed what the majority of people still want.

I do understand people's reasons for not wanting "vote after vote" (although, I personally don't think one follow up vote on such a huge undertaking as brexit is unwarranted)... HOWEVER... you can't claim that a second vote is undemocratic. If a follow up vote was to suggest that "the will of the people" has dramatically changed, then accepting that would be entirely democratic... arguably, more democratic than dogmatically accepting the outcome of one snapshot vote.

A second vote is simply an attempt to overturn the original vote - just dressed up to sideline the real intent whilst insulting the intelligence of those that voted. Come on TS you know it, I know it, everyone knows it! Why the heck should a second vote be any more valid than the first! It’s all bull**** and everyone knows it. Surprised at you TS.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

A second vote is simply an attempt to overturn the original vote - just dressed up to sideline the real intent whilst insulting the intelligence of those that voted. Come on TS you know it, I know it, everyone knows it! Why the heck should a second vote be any more valid than the first! It’s all bull**** and everyone knows it. Surprised at you TS.

The truth is that the Brexit result of the 'Referendum' was a COMPLETE and UTTER surprise to the Tories AND Labour - who BOTH desired for, and expected a huge 'Remain' result.

The Tories paid 'Lip Service' to the Referendum whilst covertly, the powerful Multi-Nationals, Super-Rich, and 'Landed' Classes - ALL who have vested interests in remaining in the EU - poured millions and huge resources into propaganda campaigns full of bollox and lies to brainwash us all into voting Remain.

The Labour Party were and are desperate to remain in the EU - thus the meandering of their leader Corbyn - but at least THEY were more upfront about it.

Since the result, NOTHING has changed, except now - instead of trying to brainwash us into 'staying in' - these lying bastards are using their massive resources and covert connections to instil fear into us all and try to make us doubt that our decision to Brexit was the correct one so that:

a) We will change our vote to 'Remain' if their campaign for a 'Second Referendum' had succeeded.
b) Be more ACCEPTING of ALL the many concessions which May is making to the EU as part of the Brexit 'Deal'.

There is no GENUINE reason for May to procrastinate or offer huge bribes or make other concessions to those crooked bastards in Europe and it is ALL part of the covert strategy to make us believe that we are OUT of the EU when - by the time May has finished with her B.S. concessions - we will be out in name only.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

A second vote is simply an attempt to overturn the original vote - just dressed up to sideline the real intent whilst insulting the intelligence of those that voted. Come on TS you know it, I know it, everyone knows it! Why the heck should a second vote be any more valid than the first! It’s all bull**** and everyone knows it. Surprised at you TS.

That doesn't really matter though. Like I said - I fully understand why many people think that a second vote is unwarranted and unnecessary. I understand the government's inclination to hold their ground and not hold such a vote.

However, if there WAS a vote, so long as it is an open public vote, and the result is a true reflection of how genuine voters have voted... then there's just no way it can be described as "undemocratic".

For example; there was no reason at all for May to hold a General Election last summer. No one wanted it... it was a total waste of time... and the result ended up doing nothing but further muddy the waters. However... that doesn't mean that the result was undemocratic.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Fair points Jack, but I have met Nigel Farage numerous times and have also found him always friendly, ultra-civil and polite, sincere, very intelligent and knowledgeable, and very approachable, but such DIRECT personal experience would not sway any anti-Farage members on here to change their dislike of him.

Also, I agree that PEACEFUL protests ARE a part of 'Democracy In Action' but, experience has shown us - time and time again - that these protests are anything but peaceful, and that is down to the Anti-Democratic factions which are behind these protests, the Political Agitators employed by them to take control of the way in which the protests develop ensuing violence and anarchy, and the mindless unknowing sheep who go along with the protests.

I would also argue that Democracy In Action could also be defined as accepting State Protocol.

That doesn't surprise me, I can imagine that Farage would be a perfectly decent person to go for a pint with. And while I agree that may be the case with a lot of people, it's not for me. My point is that just because people disagree with someone's political opinions it doesn't necessarily make them a bad person, and many of the comments in here were just absurd. I'll add the caveat that this is less so the case with people who are exerting direct influence over people's lives (i.e. a sitting PM and ministers), but Owen and to a lesser extent Farage aren't doing that.

Most of the protests in question are peaceful, with respect Kirk. As with any protest that attracts a significant turnout, there will always be a minority of opportunists looking to cause trouble. It's also important to point out the role that the police often have in provoking violence and unrest - kettling is a deliberate and almost surefire way to antagonise people and in a lot of these scenarios that's how it begins. The problem is of course is that you only get to hear of the unrest, whilst there are thousands upon thousands of people from all walks of life who have turned up with their family, friends and kids to walk down a street with a few banners. The demonstrations being organised (that provoked this thread) will be much the same thing, and I don't see a problem with that. I won't be attending one, but all power to those who do - I hope they enjoy exercising their democratic right to be there.

With regards to the last sentence - unless I've misunderstood, I totally disagree. Making people accept the status quo with no dissent Just Because is a very slippery slope...

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Democracy when it suits as the very same people are those desperately trying to overturn a democratic vote by British people to leave the EU. So please don’t preach about democracy whilst one of our oldest acts of democracy - the vote - is being ignored by those who insist on having their way despite the result.

How many times do I have to explain this to you? Democracy doesn't begin and end at the ballot box. If it did, what would be the point in having an official opposition to the government in parliament? Why not just let them get on with it without scrutiny or criticism? That always works well!

If democracy begins and ends with elections and referenda, then how come those who wanted to leave the EU have been campaigning to do so for the last four decades? After - funnily enough - the last referendum we had on the matter? At what point does it become acceptable again to express one's opposition to a particular political issue? A year? Five years? A decade? Who decides this? You?

The fact is Brillo, in a fully functioning democracy, political dissent and scrutiny is not only permissible - it is encouraged. General elections and referenda are not the only democratic tools people have at their disposal. They have a number of other things too - enshrined into international law in fact. One is even that thing you protest to love so much - free speech! Freedom of assembly and the right to protest are others. If people disagree with any political agenda, whether that's Brexit, the cuts to the NHS, a town's youth centre being closed down, a Mosque opening in a local area - you name it - they're entitled to protest about it. And you will have to learn to accept that.

You got what you wanted. We're leaving the EU. I don't think any of the protests are going to make a blind bit of difference, and quite frankly I'm sick of hearing about Brexit altogether - but they are still entitled to oppose it, protest it, call for another vote, for it to be overturned, whatever they like. Why are you so scared about that? My only advice would be to let them get on with it, it's going to make no difference to you.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Jack_

That doesn't surprise me, I can imagine that Farage would be a perfectly decent person to go for a pint with. And while I agree that may be the case with a lot of people, it's not for me. My point is that just because people disagree with someone's political opinions it doesn't necessarily make them a bad person, and many of the comments in here were just absurd. I'll add the caveat that this is less so the case with people who are exerting direct influence over people's lives (i.e. a sitting PM and ministers), but Owen and to a lesser extent Farage aren't doing that.

Most of the protests in question are peaceful, with respect Kirk. As with any protest that attracts a significant turnout, there will always be a minority of opportunists looking to cause trouble. It's also important to point out the role that the police often have in provoking violence and unrest - kettling is a deliberate and almost surefire way to antagonise people and in a lot of these scenarios that's how it begins. The problem is of course is that you only get to hear of the unrest, whilst there are thousands upon thousands of people from all walks of life who have turned up with their family, friends and kids to walk down a street with a few banners. The demonstrations being organised (that provoked this thread) will be much the same thing, and I don't see a problem with that. I won't be attending one, but all power to those who do - I hope they enjoy exercising their democratic right to be there.

With regards to the last sentence - unless I've misunderstood, I totally disagree. Making people accept the status quo with no dissent Just Because is a very slippery slope...



How many times do I have to explain this to you? Democracy doesn't begin and end at the ballot box. If it did, what would be the point in having an official opposition to the government in parliament? Why not just let them get on with it without scrutiny or criticism? That always works well!

If democracy begins and ends with elections and referenda, then how come those who wanted to leave the EU have been campaigning to do so for the last four decades? After - funnily enough - the last referendum we had on the matter? At what point does it become acceptable again to express one's opposition to a particular political issue? A year? Five years? A decade? Who decides this? You?

The fact is Brillo, in a fully functioning democracy, political dissent and scrutiny is not only permissible - it is encouraged. General elections and referenda are not the only democratic tools people have at their disposal. They have a number of other things too - enshrined into international law in fact. One is even that thing you protest to love so much - free speech! Freedom of assembly and the right to protest are others. If people disagree with any political agenda, whether that's Brexit, the cuts to the NHS, a town's youth centre being closed down, a Mosque opening in a local area - you name it - they're entitled to protest about it. And you will have to learn to accept that.

You got what you wanted. We're leaving the EU. I don't think any of the protests are going to make a blind bit of difference, and quite frankly I'm sick of hearing about Brexit altogether - but they are still entitled to oppose it, protest it, call for another vote, for it to be overturned, whatever they like. Why are you so scared about that? My only advice would be to let them get on with it, it's going to make no difference to you.

No Jack democracy doesn’t begin and end at the ballot box - but we had a democratic vote. Protesting to overturn that vote because the vote didn’t go your way is undemocratic - how many times do I have to explain that.

What are these people expecting to happen - that they manage to overturn that vote, by whatever deceitful means, and finally get their way - is that your idea of democracy! What if people then protest against that - where does it stop. The vote has been made - and cannot be interfered with until it goes the ‘right’ way - now that would be the very worst kind of undemocratic rule now wouldn’t it!

[Twosugars]

Brillo, chill. You're getting too worked up in this hot weather.
Burning effigies is a staple of political protests. It will go on whether you like it or not.
I bet Trump's narcissism would be tickled if we told him his effigy would be the biggest and the bestest in the world.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Brillo, chill. You're getting too worked up in this hot weather.
Burning effigies is a staple of political protests. It will go on whether you like it or not.
I bet Trump's narcissism would be tickled if we told him his effigy would be the biggest and the bestest in the world.

Of course it will go on - the kids have to have their hypocritical fun! If it makes them feel better - which I doubt it will. They will still be filled with hate.

[Twosugars]

As much as I hate it, Kirk, I think Brexit is gonna happen. But the referendum didn't address any details so these are up for a debate.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

As much as I hate it, Kirk, I think Brexit is gonna happen. But the referendum didn't address any details so these are up for a debate.

I take your point Twosugars and respect you for making it civilly.

[Tom4784]

You can't complain about 'fear-mongering' while ignoring the fallacies and fairy tales that formed the cornerstones of the Leave campaign. It's basically complaining about one cheap tactic just because the cheap tactic you backed wouldn't work twice in a row.

Every vote is democratic by nature, you can't just disavow things because they might not go your way. I voted Remain yet I wouldn't want a second vote to happen just because people who don't know what fact checking is believed in the lies of the Leave camp and now they regret it. Votes have consequences and people need to lie in the bed that they've made.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You can't complain about 'fear-mongering' while ignoring the fallacies and fairy tales that formed the cornerstones of the Leave campaign. It's basically complaining about one cheap tactic just because the cheap tactic you backed wouldn't work twice in a row.

Every vote is democratic by nature, you can't just disavow things because they might not go your way. I voted Remain yet I wouldn't want a second vote to happen just because people who don't know what fact checking is believed in the lies of the Leave camp and now they regret it. Votes have consequences and people need to lie in the bed that they've made.

Votes indeed do have consequences - but no doubt if Brexit is the success many believe it can be the sour-faced remainers doing their worst to stop it will undoubedely be quick to reap the benefits - hope they choke on it.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Votes indeed do have consequences - but no doubt if Brexit is the success many believe it can be the sour-faced remainers doing their worst to stop it will undoubedely be quick to reap the benefits - hope they choke on it.

Considering that Micheal Gove was telling people to ignore expert advice on what would happen if we left the EU, it doesn't paint a strong picture for the likely outcome and being optimistic won't change that. If the leaders of the Leave movement were trying to tell people to ignore expert advice just because it wasn't what they wanted to hear then what does that say for the chances of a successful Brexit?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Considering that Micheal Gove was telling people to ignore expert advice on what would happen if we left the EU, it doesn't paint a strong picture for the likely outcome and being optimistic won't change that. If the leaders of the Leave movement were trying to tell people to ignore expert advice just because it wasn't what they wanted to hear then what does that say for the chances of a successful Brexit?

There are experts on both sides so attempting to suggest expert advice is all against Brexit is not well informed or honest, whichever applies.