[Twosugars]

Next parents choosing to reject treated water or pasteurized food bc they read on some nutty blog that its harmful?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Next parents choosing to reject treated water or pasteurized food bc they read on some nutty blog that its harmful?

So you want the government to mandate diet as well? Maybe we'll start getting soylent green deliveries.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

So you want the government to mandate diet as well? Maybe we'll start getting soylent green deliveries.

Don't they intervene already? Sugar tax is inevitable in future

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Don't they intervene already? Sugar tax is inevitable in future

Again, that's not an intervention. Sugar being made completely illegal wouldn't be an intervention.

Saying "Your child must eat Brocolli or they will be taken into care" would be your direct comparison here.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Again, that's not an intervention. Sugar being made completely illegal wouldn't be an intervention.

Saying "Your child must eat Brocolli or they will be taken into care" would be your direct comparison here.

You're overreacting

[Twosugars]

I'm not that arsed about it all TS as personally I decided not to breed. But I worry when science is being undermined. Anti vac movement is part of that imo.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

I'm not that arsed about it all TS as personally I decided not to breed. But I worry when science is being undermined. Anti vac movement is part of that imo.

The anti-vaxx movement is indeed absolutely packed with junk "science" but the antidote to that isn't more lies, scare tactics and authoritarianism. It's doubling down on the real scientific facts.

[Twosugars]

Any chance for a naked wrestle to settle our little argument?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Any chance for a naked wrestle to settle our little argument?

Dezzy might try to get involved, and unchecked sarcasm completely kills my buzz

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Dezzy might try to get involved, and unchecked sarcasm completely kills my buzz

Dezzy means well. We all are really in broad agreement on this issue.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Dezzy might try to get involved, and unchecked sarcasm completely kills my buzz

...and yet you have been a user of it on several occasions TS, you know you have...enough now with the personal silliness...you both just have polar opposite opinions with this is all and both feel equally strongly about it...

[Ammi]

...it is a very difficult one though because if people in large numbers chose to ignore medical opinion and didn’t have their children inoculated...?...then deadly infant diseases would grow more and more common in the western world...and that’s also going backwards in time surely..?...to me that would be the by far worse scenario...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...it is a very difficult one though because if people in large numbers chose to ignore medical opinion and didn’t have their children inoculated...?...then deadly infant diseases would grow more and more common in the western world...and that’s also going backwards in time surely..?...to me that would be the by far worse scenario...

We fundamentally disagree on where that ends though Ammi. In an ideal world we can "pick and choose" our freedoms but that's never how it's going to work. Either you fight to protect autonomy and the basic right of people to make their own decisions, or you accept that all of these decisions are ultimately in the hands of a higher authority.

I will never agree that the latter is the better option, and I think a "half way" choice with "exceptions" is naive. If you accept giving the authorities the right to make one medical decision for yourself and your family, you accept the path where the authorities make all medical decisions for all families.

Vaccinating is the right choice but no one is ever going to convince me that the choice should be taken away.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

We fundamentally disagree on where that ends though Ammi. In an ideal world we can "pick and choose" our freedoms but that's never how it's going to work. Either you fight to protect autonomy and the basic right of people to make their own decisions, or you accept that all of these decisions are ultimately in the hands of a higher authority.

I will never agree that the latter is the better option, and I think a "half way" choice with "exceptions" is naive. If you accept giving the authorities the right to make one medical decision for yourself and your family, you accept the path where the authorities make all medical decisions for all families.

Vaccinating is the right choice but no one is ever going to convince me that the choice should be taken away.

...but then this ‘choice’ is not made about us as adults, TS...what if every parent or a majority of parents said...no!!...we won’t inoculate, it’s our child and our choice...the Western world regresses into many child deaths and we as parents felt it was our right to decide on the potential life or death of our child..?...I really do think it’s a complicated thing to consider tbh...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...but then this ‘choice’ is not made about us as adults, TS...what if every parent or a majority of parents said...no!!...we won’t inoculate, it’s our child and our choice...the Western world regresses into many child deaths and we as parents felt it was our right to decide on the potential life or death of our child..?...I really do think it’s a complicated thing to consider tbh...

It is complicated but it's not something I haven't given significant thought or that I say flippantly. We have to protect our right to freedom and autonomy tooth and nail, the world's systems of authority - and certainly those in the US, and here in the UK - have done absolutely NOTHING that suggests we should give them such implicit trust that we hand over such fundamental decisions to them. Maybe in another, much better, world it would be safe to do that but not in this one.

[Tom4784]

There's a lot of 'look over here instead of at the issue' going on here.

The current outbreaks in the US are down to the rise of anti-Vaxxers that believe what they find to be convenient over scientific fact. They disregard reality in favour of conspiracy.

Vaccines can have side effects but it's down to vaccines that many terrible diseases have been eradicated and it's because of moronic parents that care more about their facebook groups than their children that these illnesses could return. If you are willing to put your child in harm's way for your beliefs then that is child endangerment to me and should be treated as such.

Even entertaining their ignorance for a second validates it in their eyes so I can't see TS' view as anything other than encouragement of the anti-vaxxer movement even if he says he disagrees with it.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

There's a lot of 'look over here instead of at the issue' going on here.

The current outbreaks in the US are down to the rise of anti-Vaxxers that believe what they find to be convenient over scientific fact. They disregard reality in favour of conspiracy.

Vaccines can have side effects but it's down to vaccines that many terrible diseases have been eradicated and it's because of moronic parents that care more about their facebook groups than their children that these illnesses could return. If you are willing to put your child in harm's way for your beliefs then that is child endangerment to me and should be treated as such.

Even entertaining their ignorance for a second validates it in their eyes so I can't see TS' view as anything other than encouragement of the anti-vaxxer movement even if he says he disagrees with it.

I can only refer you to what I said above. Giving up the freedom of choice in terms of medical treatment goes way beyond vaccination in terms of precedent, and I think believing "it would definitely just be vaccination" is naive. Its advocating an end game of increasing state control over medical decisions and the removal of literally THE most basic right: bodily autonomy.

So I can only stand by what I said. Legal intervention is wrong and conceptually terrifying, and scare tactics that involve flat out lies ("your children will die if you don't vaccinate!!") are ineffective at best and counterproductive at worst. Because it literally takes 5 seconds of googling to reveal that that is false, and thus, the whole argument collapses and becomes irrelevant. WHY would you expect people to listen to people after they have engaged in arguments that are scientifically verifiable lies? It's madness.

[user104658]

All or even most parents will never say no to the main vaccines though, it's not realistic, and you can either believe in the concept of a legal guardian or not I suppose. If you do, then you trust that the legal guardian is genuinely acting in what they sincerely believe is the best interests of their ward. That's what legal guardianship is. It's not a perfect system, but it's the best and least authoritarian system we have.

If you believe that the authorities should have the right to overrule then you don't believe in parental guardianship, you believe in universal state guardianship... And that requires a level of trust in the intentions and competence of the state that I will never agree is justified. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[Ammi]

...yeah we’ll agree to disagree..(...although I did think I agreed until I thought about it more and how complicated it is )...because this seems to be the point where I came in...societal pressure../..social and media influences etc..it’s quite possible that many/far too many parents would say No and with no specific reasons other than fears or concerns ...yes I do believe that the majority of parents always try to act in the interest of their children but I also know that ‘the best interest’ will not be the same for every parent..and sometimes will go against best medical advice...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...yeah we’ll agree to disagree..(...although I did think I agreed until I thought about it more and how complicated it is )...because this seems to be the point where I came in...societal pressure../..social and media influences etc..it’s quite possible that many/far too many parents would say No and with no specific reasons other than fears or concerns ...yes I do believe that the majority of parents always try to act in the interest of their children but I also know that ‘the best interest’ will not be the same for every parent..and sometimes will go against best medical advice...

I think Facebook / Social Media is a sociological disaster in general and "junk science" is absolutely also a huge problem, but really that's a totally separate issue, and the answer to the problems created by those things is not (in my opinion) to just "grab more control and force people to do the right thing anyway".

[bots]

education is the obvious solution. Teach people to have critical thinking

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

education is the obvious solution. Teach people to have critical thinking

I do think a big part of the problem is poor perception of risk. E.g. The major death risk of a vaccine reaction is anaphylaxis but your kid is literally at much greater risk of that very thing the first time they encounter a peanut or get stung by a wasp than the first time they get a vaccine but people don't give it a second thought.

They're also at greater risk every time we strap 'em into a car but again, parents who are terrified of vaccines do that every day with a smile.

But again IMO we don't help this poor risk perception with "scary myths" designed to force people to vaccinate, it just furthers the perception of the human body as unpredictable and fragile, and that actually is part of what puts people off vaccines in the first place, ironically.