[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Oh I'm not saying they don't come with consequences, that wasn't the point I was trying to make in my last post. What I meant was the phrasing "The left hold their own accountable" sounds to me like the left are some sort of organisation that only allow people to hold the views they approve of otherwise you're out on your ear and who is deciding which views are the "correct" ones. Why can't people sometimes share similar views and sometimes not?




No not at all, certainly not from my point of view. I don't think my opinions in general are very out there or offensive, so certainly from a personal level, I find that to be untrue

What I was trying to say with that comment is that they basically typically hold everyone to the same standard. There's consistency there.

People are allowed their opinions and others are free to react to them.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

All opinions come with a consequence because free speech works both ways. JK can say what she wants and people are free to react to her views how they see fit (with obvious exceptions). If people choose to turn their backs on someone because they find their views reprehensible then that's their choice.

That would be fine if it was all that's happening, but it isn't... The idea isn't just that they can turn their backs on someone they no longer like, it's that if other people don't ALSO turn their backs then they are complicit and must also be branded, shunned or "punished".

The issue isn't and never has been people's personal opinions on JK Rowling changing because of something she's said. That's just normal human interaction. It's the tribalism and group-think mentality of "... And YOU must agree and also change your opinion of her, or you are a TERF/TERF sympathiser!" that is a massive problem. And the hypocrisy of refusing to address the threats and violence coming from the same "Tribe". "The difference is that the left hold their own accountable" is an absolute JOKE if you take a look at that side of things. Justifying or ignoring threats of sexual violence "because its understandable that people are angry" whilst also insisting that "silence is violence" from people who don't subscribe to the same hive. Blaring mantras and *insisting* with veiled threats that others repeat their mantra "or else something"... Face the consequences... Bleh. Creepy. Cultish. I've personally had enough of it and to be quite honest, I think most people have. The bubble is going to burst quite soon and sadly some blameless people are going to be caught up in that.

[Scarlett.]

If you don't wanna be cancelled, don't be a dick.

It's that simple.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Scarlett.

If you don't wanna be cancelled, don't be a dick.

It's that simple.

Nothing is ever "that simple" as I'm sure you know, but allowing emotion to override any semblance of reasoned, considered argument is another (worryingly) accepted norm/standard.

All you're saying here is "say the right things and you don't need to worry". The irony is in how worrying that is.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Nothing is ever "that simple" as I'm sure you know, but allowing emotion to override any semblance of reasoned, considered argument is another (worryingly) accepted norm/standard.

All you're saying here is "say the right things and you don't need to worry". The irony is in how worrying that is.

...hmmmm, I think it’s more that Scarlett is saying that people should self monitor and (..at times..)...have more thought in what they say and how it impacts others...

...(...that doesn’t justify pack mentality btw but I’m thinking it’s more pack mentality rather than another label of ‘cancel culture’...)...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...hmmmm, I think it’s more that Scarlett is saying that people should self monitor and (..at times..)...have more thought in what they say and how it impacts others...

It is demonstrably not true, though. People with well-reasoned and thought through opinions will find them self on the receiving end of an aggressive Twitter mob if the opinion happened to fall outwith their definition of acceptable thinking. No attempt at rational debate, no attempt to CHANGE the opinions they think are wrong, just a lazy "cancelling".

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It is demonstrably not true, though. People with well-reasoned and thought through opinions will find them self on the receiving end of an aggressive Twitter mob if the opinion happened to fall outwith their definition of acceptable thinking. No attempt at rational debate, no attempt to CHANGE the opinions they think are wrong, just a lazy "cancelling".

...they’re not necessarily ‘well reasoned’ though.....when for instance, things are ‘thrown out’ out on Twitter and such the like social media...and even to the news media...?..they can also be thrown out with no well reasoning at all and simply for a reaction...unfortunately it’s an illusion of feeling some type of control and manipulation of media platforms or media etc....when once something is ‘thrown out there’ in such a way, all control becomes lost as the pack circles and strikes...but isn’t that the reaction that was anticipated in some cases.../..as opposed to ‘well reasoned’...

[Ammi]

...either making or ignoring threats of sexual violence wouldn’t be a ‘left’ or ‘right’ thing though...it would be a very extreme stance and wouldn’t apply to either...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...either making or ignoring threats of sexual violence wouldn’t be a ‘left’ or ‘right’ thing though...it would be a very extreme stance and wouldn’t apply to either...

It isn't a left or right thing, the extreme language and expectation of homogenous opinion is completely non-partisan at this point. Tribalism by necessity requires multiple tribes and cancel-culture, because it inherently requires the influence and power of the mob, is tribal in nature.

[Liam-]

The ones crying most about ‘cancel culture’ are the ones benefitting the most from it.

Dawn Butler has to shut her offices down because of the constant abuse and damage being caused to it, why isn’t that splashed over the media? Because it wouldn’t fit into the right wing narrative that they are the ones being silenced

[Liam-]

JHB this week applauded hundreds of people losing their jobs because they worked for a paper she doesn’t like, yet cries foul when people on her side are questioned for their opinions and their actions, they pick and choose when they’re offended or when something is malicious, ‘cancel culture’ is yet another meaningless talking point made up by right wingers to portray themselves as victims of a society they actually have much more power over than the other side.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Liam-

JHB this week applauded hundreds of people losing their jobs because they worked for a paper she doesn’t like, yet cries foul when people on her side are questioned for their opinions and their actions, they pick and choose when they’re offended or when something is malicious, ‘cancel culture’ is yet another meaningless talking point made up by right wingers to portray themselves as victims of a society they actually have much more power over than the other side.

The attempt at a culture of cancellation is a (flawed) attempt to regain power and control for marginalised groups that has spiraled into extreme thinking and language. Are people often successfully cancelled? No. Are some people on the right constructing a victim narrative? Probably. Do proponents of cancellation WISH it did work, and are they still attempting to make it work? Yes and yes. And they are happy to ignore the toxic elements of the mob because the mob - as you say, being at a power disadvantage - relies heavily on having the numbers.

Its a bad tactic that's going to backfire spectacularly, and that relies on boiling every issue down to "its simples" no matter how complex they actually are.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

JHB this week applauded hundreds of people losing their jobs because they worked for a paper she doesn’t like, yet cries foul when people on her side are questioned for their opinions and their actions, they pick and choose when they’re offended or when something is malicious, ‘cancel culture’ is yet another meaningless talking point made up by right wingers to portray themselves as victims of a society they actually have much more power over than the other side.

Plenty of people on the left believe in cancel culture though, even on this thread alone

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Plenty of people on the left believe in cancel culture though, even on this thread alone

Okay? They’re entitled to believe in it if they wish

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Okay? They’re entitled to believe in it if they wish

Well I'm just saying, you're the one saying that cancel culture is a figment of the rights imagination when that's clearly not true.

*disclaimer - I'm not defending the right here at all

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well I'm just saying, you're the one saying that cancel culture is a figment of the rights imagination when that's clearly not true.

*disclaimer - I'm not defending the right here at all

I didn’t say it’s in their imagination, what they’re doing is disproportionately highlighting a very small minority of angry, obsessed, abusive people and claiming they’re the targets of a pandemic like ‘culture’ when they themselves in fact, relish in the consequences and situations people they don’t like face, mob rule doesn’t get people fired, if an employer didn’t think they had done something to bring whatever they do into disrepute, or goes against what they believe in as a company or organisation, they wouldn’t be fired, by allocating intellectually dishonest and unproven power to a minority, they’re creating a loophole to avoid responsibility.

If people don’t agree with that it’s fine, I’m not gonna cancel them.

[Oliver_W]

JK Rowling didn't even say anything that bad. Like, it's not nice to say transwomen aren't female, but ... they're not? Nothing she's said (that I know of) has been hateful, and certainly not warranting the disgusting comment and pictures replying to her tweets. The response she's been getting isn't what "consequences" should be.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

JK Rowling didn't even say anything that bad. Like, it's not nice to say transwomen aren't female, but ... they're not? Nothing she's said (that I know of) has been hateful, and certainly not warranting the disgusting comment and pictures replying to her tweets. The response she's been getting isn't what "consequences" should be.

At some point she's descended into being a bit petty, which is a shame, but there was nothing wrong with her actual articles. And that's not to say that I agree with everything she said but - and this is the part I think some people struggle with - not agreeing with every aspect of an article doesn't mean there was something wrong with it. That's where the dogged insistence on a consensus of thought and opinion comes in, and that's the part that concerns me. "Don't be a dick" too often comes with the caveat of "... And if you hold opinions contrary to mine, you're being a dick".

I also think the people sending porn and rape threats, the supposed transpeople telling her to suck their ****, are a SMALL and extreme percentage of the people who disagree with her BUT I think a much larger and more worrying proportion refuse to condemn the aggressive ones because, again, group cohesion is seen as vital to "maintaining a voice". Which is why I found the "we hold our own to account" part a bit hard to swallow.

[Ammi]

..I do agree also with the debate on the vid that James posted, that JKR is not the best example in considering aspects of ‘cancel culture’ ...because she’ll never be ‘cancelled’...it’s not in a ‘pack or mob’ power to cause that for her...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I do agree also with the debate on the vid that James posted, that JKR is not the best example in considering aspects of ‘cancel culture’ ...because she’ll never be ‘cancelled’...it’s not in a ‘pack or mob’ power to cause that...

I think it makes her an excellent example when used in a set of other examples; people expected it to work better than it did and when it was like firing a BB gun at a freight train, they became increasingly frustrated and aggressive.

Some people are FURIOUS that JK Rowling is not cancelled.

The argument that cancel culture doesn't exist because it doesn't often work is quite a flimsy one. The fact that it often fails is largely irrelevant.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think it makes her an excellent example when used in a set of other examples; people expected it to work better than it did and when it was like firing a BB gun at a freight train, they became increasingly frustrated and aggressive.

Some people are FURIOUS that JK Rowling is not cancelled.

The argument that cancel culture doesn't exist because it doesn't often work is quite a flimsy one. The fact that it often fails is largely irrelevant.

...(...I think, honestly...)...that the ‘some people who are furious’ are a very, very small minority...who if their ‘views’ or ‘opinions’ or whatever incorporate ones of violent acts toward her or anyone else...are not people who we can look at as having any type of reasonable social reasoning...they’re abusive online trolls who should be dealt with by the police...and I honestly doubt also that their aggression is because they’ve experienced a ‘freight train’, it’s the way they would express themselves with whoever that person was...they’re very much a huge part of what goes to make social media in the modern day so toxic...because they don’t care who they throw their toxicity at...?...the Internet is a place that enables dehumanisation to them...

...anyways, as I said...I’m going to leave the specific JKR debate for others
but I was very interested in other examples in the debate that James posted because had actually been ‘cancelled’...or had they..?...hmmmmm...we rarely get ‘complete stories’ with no slanting is another issue...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

At some point she's descended into being a bit petty, which is a shame, but there was nothing wrong with her actual articles. And that's not to say that I agree with everything she said but - and this is the part I think some people struggle with - not agreeing with every aspect of an article doesn't mean there was something wrong with it. That's where the dogged insistence on a consensus of thought and opinion comes in, and that's the part that concerns me. "Don't be a dick" too often comes with the caveat of "... And if you hold opinions contrary to mine, you're being a dick".

I also think the people sending porn and rape threats, the supposed transpeople telling her to suck their ****, are a SMALL and extreme percentage of the people who disagree with her BUT I think a much larger and more worrying proportion refuse to condemn the aggressive ones because, again, group cohesion is seen as vital to "maintaining a voice". Which is why I found the "we hold our own to account" part a bit hard to swallow.

It's a shame because what these trans activists are doing is almost proving why she's concerned and most of them probably aren't even trans people.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It's a shame because what these trans activists are doing is almost proving why she's concerned and most of them probably aren't even trans people.

That's why I think the extremes of trans activism are doing far more damage to trans acceptance right now than good. A lot of the Twitter accounts making threats or "wishes" of sexual violence are, at least in claim, transwomen... By "the rules" that has to be accepted because we're supposed to accept without reservation that self-ID is all that's required. They say they are women, so they are women.

Except that using threats, wishes or jokes about sexual violence as a shaming technique against women is a very psychologically male mindset. It's a thing that MEN do when they are angry. This is pretty well studied by psychological shaming researchers. So you have a group of biologically male transwomen engaging in male behaviours that come from male socialisation - male gendered behaviour - while insisting that they are women by gender. It turns the whole thing into a sham.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's why I think the extremes of trans activism are doing far more damage to trans acceptance right now than good. A lot of the Twitter accounts making threats or "wishes" of sexual violence are, at least in claim, transwomen... By "the rules" that has to be accepted because we're supposed to accept without reservation that self-ID is all that's required. They say they are women, so they are women.

Except that using threats, wishes or jokes about sexual violence as a shaming technique against women is a very psychologically male mindset. It's a thing that MEN do when they are angry. This is pretty well studied by psychological shaming researchers. So you have a group of biologically male transwomen engaging in male behaviours that come from male socialisation - male gendered behaviour - while insisting that they are women by gender. It turns the whole thing into a sham.

Exactly. And this is why the shutting down of any attempts at conversation about self ID, trans rights vs women's sex based rights etc is damaging to both women and trans women. Telling a group who are genuinely concerned about how their rights will be affected by new laws to shut up and start calling them names and threatening them if they don't is really only going to cause a bigger divide and so much bad blood

[Liam-]

Sorry I just don’t buy it, one one hand we’re told to not believe that social media reflects true society and then on the other, we’re being told that angry people on social media are ruining society by trying to cancel everyone, it can’t and doesn’t work both ways.

Being ‘cancelled’ started as a joke that stans would use when someone they liked did something weird, it was never about ruining careers or livelihoods, it has been hijacked by bad faith actors desperate for a culture war to feed their narratives and egos, to the point now where people who do and say things deserving of disdain and criticism, absolve themselves of criticism, I mean there was a week last week that claimed R Kelly was a ‘victim’ of cancel culture

We’re getting to the point where anyone can dodge fault by claiming they’re just being targeted by ‘deranged lefty mobs’

It’s dangerous precedent to start setting