[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Swan

Youtube video

All undercover cops and white supremacists? I know you wont watch, but it's pretty clear what's happening in the video.

Ah, it's okay, police reports from across the US that blame white supremacy for riots and violence in protests have all been proven wrong because Swan has posted an edited compilation footage from Youtube!

You should ask yourself why you are so intent on trying to discredit people protesting police brutality.

[Swan]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Ah, it's okay, police reports from across the US that blame white supremacy for riots and violence in protests have all been proven wrong because Swan has posted an edited compilation footage from Youtube!

You should ask yourself why you are so intent on trying to discredit people protesting police brutality.

Im all for the decent, honest people fighting police brutality, never said otherwise. But it's pretty obvious you've not watched the video, it's not edited to manipulate, it's just a compilation of clips where people are stealing clothes, electronics, guns, and various other stuff. Also of people needlessly smashing up shops and and property.

If you wanna blame that kind of behaviour on white supremacy, and/or right wingers that's up to you.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Swan

Im all for the decent, honest people fighting police brutality, never said otherwise. But it's pretty obvious you've not watched the video, it's not edited to manipulate, it's just a compilation of clips where people are stealing clothes, electronics, guns, and various other stuff. Also of people needlessly smashing up shops and and property.

If you wanna blame that kind of behaviour on white supremacy, and/or right wingers that's up to you.

You know what they say about assumptions, Swan. I watched it, and saw it was exactly what I said it was the first 1,000 times you posted this video as an argument.

Yes, I will blame the violence on the racists, that is the correct outcome in this conversation. For every protest that gets sabotaged to violence, there are hundreds of peaceful protest without any racist interference. But by all means, make out that I'm just believing what I want to believe, you obviously know more about this then the police that investigated cases of violence throughout the protests that all led back to racist interference.

[Tom4784]

Also you won't get many black people outside the likes of Candace Owens who only has a career so white republicans can be like 'look, we aren't racist, a black person agrees with us!' who disagree with BLM. It's the same with LGBT people, you have a number of gays in republican pockets simply because it makes them look less homophobic.

Right Wing commentators will say the lines they are paid to say but most others won't oppose BLM because they've lived experiencing why they need change.

[Oliver_W]

You can acknowledge that black lives matter and simultaneously not like the rioting which has been attributed to them (and unless you look on every corner of the net you'd have no reason to doubt the attributions are rightful) and also dislike their links to communism. Disliking the movement of Black Lives Matter isn't the same as saying that black lives don't matter.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

You can acknowledge that black lives matter and simultaneously not like the rioting which has been attributed to them (and unless you look on every corner of the net you'd have no reason to doubt the attributions are rightful) and also dislike their links to communism. Disliking the movement of Black Lives Matter isn't the same as saying that black lives don't matter.

A bad faith statement on your part since you've made it abundantly clear in other posts on this matter that you care more about buildings and things over lives.

[user104658]

Rioting and looting is a symptom of civil unrest and has been since there was a civilisation to be unrestful. It's just an inevitability of prolonged protest and should be viewed as a side-issue; it makes no difference in terms of discussing the reasons for the original protesting, though people will be more than happy to use it as a distraction.

Small groups of opportunistic people will use the cover of civil unrest to carry out selfish actions. You can acknowledge that but it's not really a key issue... It's just dolphins surfing the wake of a ship.

[Kizzy]

I think a murder is an excellent reason for a riot...especially if those doing the murdering are in the business of law enforcement. ..

Protests peaceful or otherwise are a gauge of public feeling, how are the public feeling about this?
Throughout history there have been violent and non violent protests and riots for noble causes, and for things that the modern day take for granted.
They are sometimes necessary. .. when all other avenues have been exhausted. Of course they're not ideal, but can everyone hand on heart say they are never warranted? Imo no.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I think a murder is an excellent reason for a riot...especially if those doing the murdering are in the business of law enforcement. ..

Protests peaceful or otherwise are a gauge of public feeling, how are the public feeling about this?
Throughout history there have been violent and non violent protests and riots for noble causes, and for things that the modern day take for granted.
They are sometimes necessary. .. when all other avenues have been exhausted. Of course they're not ideal, but can everyone hand on heart say they are never warranted? Imo no.

which "murder" are you referring to that has gone to court and been confirmed?

[Oliver_W]

If they took their riots to the police stations or City Hall (if that's the right term ) I might well be in support. Take it to the perpetrators!

But the level of destruction is inexcusable; pardon the anecdotal evidence but a twitter "friend" of mine lives in Chicago, and the riots left him without available food or medication for at least five miles.

You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone sane who agrees with the police murdering people, but it'd be just as hard to find anyone who thinks a riot which achieved nothing but a food desert was worth it.

[Swan]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I think a murder is an excellent reason for a riot...especially if those doing the murdering are in the business of law enforcement. ..

Protests peaceful or otherwise are a gauge of public feeling, how are the public feeling about this?
Throughout history there have been violent and non violent protests and riots for noble causes, and for things that the modern day take for granted.
They are sometimes necessary. .. when all other avenues have been exhausted. Of course they're not ideal, but can everyone hand on heart say they are never warranted? Imo no.

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

If they took their riots to the police stations or City Hall (if that's the right term ) I might well be in support. Take it to the perpetrators!

But the level of destruction is inexcusable; pardon the anecdotal evidence but a twitter "friend" of mine lives in Chicago, and the riots left him without available food or medication for at least five miles.

You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone sane who agrees with the police murdering people, but it'd be just as hard to find anyone who thinks a riot which achieved nothing but a food desert was worth it.

What Oliver said. No need in destroying small business and livelihoods of those you are supposedly fighting for. Take the riot to the criminals, the guilty, the murderers. If that were the case, i don't think there'd be much of an issue. Yet it's mainly the innocent who suffer.

[Tom4784]

When the police officers that murdered Breonna Taylor get charged for the bullets that didn't hit her but not the ones that killed her, people are going to get angry and white supremacists will stir up that anger with violence.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

When the police officers that murdered Breonna Taylor get charged for the bullets that didn't hit her but not the ones that killed her, people are going to get angry and white supremacists will stir up that anger with violence.

Okay, Mystic Meg.

Maybe the protests will organically turn into riots. To say that every BLM protest was pushed further by white supremacistsis as daft as saying none were. And no amount of righteous anger should be used as an excuse to follow whoever gets it going.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Okay, Mystic Meg.

Maybe the protests will organically turn into riots. To say that every BLM protest was pushed further by white supremacistsis as daft as saying none were. And no amount of righteous anger should be used as an excuse to follow whoever gets it going.

I'm not making predictions here, remember all those news stories I've shown you multiple times that stated the same things are happening in different states but you keep pretending to have not seen that and keep acting like I'm some fraud because you can't handle acknowledging something that doesn't go with your agenda. Also you are acting in complete bad faith by twisting my words and making out that I'm speaking in absolutes when I'm not. Argue against what I'm saying, not what you desperately want me to have said so you can edit it to suit your narrative.

Some opportunists will spoil things, some people will let their anger reign and considering the situation, I think that's very ****ing understandable, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of police departments are saying the same thing, that violence is often spurred on by extremist right wing and white supremacist people which is why most protests are peaceful, but they don't serve your purpose so you won't acknowledge them.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I'm not making predictions here, remember all those news stories I've shown you multiple times that stated the same things are happening in different states but you keep pretending to have not seen that and keep acting like I'm some fraud because you can't handle acknowledging something that doesn't go with your agenda. Also you are acting in complete bad faith by twisting my words and making out that I'm speaking in absolutes when I'm not. Argue against what I'm saying, not what you desperately want me to have said so you can edit it to suit your narrative.

Some opportunists will spoil things, some people will let their anger reign and considering the situation, I think that's very ****ing understandable, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of police departments are saying the same thing, that violence is often spurred on by extremist right wing and white supremacist people which is why most protests are peaceful, but they don't serve your purpose so you won't acknowledge them.

I don't have an agenda beyond "they're all scum", when it comes to rioters. Maybe the protests get sabotaged, maybe not. But either way, the former protesters who join in with the riots are entirely culpable for their own actions, whether they're following a white supremacist without knowing it, or whether they just happen to be violent.

Your list of links included people handing out leaflets and distributing stickers, putting paper in unwelcome places doesn't belong in the same conversation as rioting and looting. Unless you think they'd have behaved like human beings until they read some words on a bit of paper?

I don't need to acknowledge peaceful protests because they were never part of the conversation riots and protests don't need to be lumped in with each other.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Maybe the protests get sabotaged, maybe not. But either way

So, you're basically saying sabotaged or not they're to blame? Kind of shown your hand there.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I don't have an agenda beyond "they're all scum", when it comes to rioters. Maybe the protests get sabotaged, maybe not. But either way, the former protesters who join in with the riots are entirely culpable for their own actions, whether they're following a white supremacist without knowing it, or whether they just happen to be violent.

Your list of links included people handing out leaflets and distributing stickers, putting paper in unwelcome places doesn't belong in the same conversation as rioting and looting. Unless you think they'd have behaved like human beings until they read some words on a bit of paper?

I don't need to acknowledge peaceful protests because they were never part of the conversation riots and protests don't need to be lumped in with each other.

Here he goes again, choosing to ignore the links that detailed how white supremacists were behind violence in several protests to focus on the one link that benefits his agenda. Common sense dictates that, if you ignore several different things telling you the same thing to focus on the one thing that's more pleasing to your ears, you're probably in the wrong.

You keep going on about the evils of violence and vandalism but you are intent on scrubbing clean anything related to white supremacist violence and vandalism, of which there is a lot. Why are you so focused on minimising white supremacist incidents but you're so keen to amplify anything, whether it's true or not, that discredits and paints BLM in a bad light?

You should ask yourself if you are stood on the right side of history in this matter.

[Crimson Dynamo]

No one murdered the Taylor girl that is spreading misinformation in the thread.

The court in the county in which she lived have already decided on this case. Heed the law.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

No one murdered the Taylor girl that is spreading misinformation in the thread.

The court in the county in which she lived have already decided on this case. Heed the law.

Regardless of whatever the courts are currently saying, I think it could easily be called manslaughter. If I'm remember it correctly, the cops fired into a "blind spot" where she'd been standing, I think there was a partition or something? So was shot and killed by a cop, who wasn't intending to kill her?

[Tom4784]

Also murder is murder, if anyone tries to argue against Breonna Taylor's murder not being murder then they're doing so for racial reasons because they don't want to admit the police murdered a black woman and it's easier for them to believe the black woman did something to deserve it.

They burst into her house unannounced, shot her up and then arrested the boyfriend for making use of his second amendment rights to defend his home and his girlfriend against unknown intruders. Then, after months of people demanding justice for her, the state charges the officers for the shots that didn't kill her.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Also murder is murder, if anyone tries to argue against Breonna Taylor's murder not being murder then they're doing so for racial reasons because they don't want to admit the police murdered a black woman and it's easier for them to believe the black woman did something to deserve it.

They burst into her house unannounced, shot her up and then arrested the boyfriend for making use of his second amendment rights to defend his home and his girlfriend against unknown intruders. Then, after months of people demanding justice for her, the state charges the officers for the shots that didn't kill her.

How do you know all this dezzy?

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by parmnion

How do you know all this dezzy?

Well I heard she was shot by accident they weren't after her,who knows the real truth ?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by parmnion

How do you know all this dezzy?

Because I can read and have kept up with the facts of the case, instead of assuming she did something wrong and that the police are beyond blame for their own actions.

[Kizzy]

Essentially though it should not negate your right to support a movement because some people choose to break the law.

It does not detract from the the original sentiment or from your right to promote its core values.

[user104658]

I don't particularly believe the conspiracy theory that "all" or even a large number of the protests that turn into riots are because they were secretly infiltrated by white supremacists who lit the kindling. I'm sure it happens, but it will be a relatively small number of the total incidents, and we should be wary of buying into the "twitter detective work" showing sneaky shadowy figures frequently being behing civil unrest while everyone else was behaving themselves and would have continued that way. It's just overly convenient nonsense, really, and a bit too easy (when riots are widespread) to collect together a half dozen clips or examples of it happening and use those to suggest that it's happening in every case.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Essentially though it should not negate your right to support a movement because some people choose to break the law.

That's my thoughts on it really, rioting and looting are a standard symptom of civil unrest, be that people getting caught up in violence or people who have little care for the cause using it as a cover for looting, it's literally ALWAYS been a feature of large protests, you can see it in pretty much every ancient culture (Romans, Greeks et al) ... it's just what ends up happening. It doesn't change the reasons for the protest, nor lessen them, nor does it mean people shouldn't protest out of "fear" that a number of people will go too far. Lumping all protesters in with the percentage that are lighting fires and smashing windows is an easy way for those being protested against to shut the whole thing down. Essentially, if you're in power, you have to accept that if you have an angry and unhappy population they're going to start breaking **** and wailing about "personal responsibility" isn't good enough. Yes they have personal responsibility, no rioting is not a good idea, yes anyone looting should face legal consequences... but that doesn't change the fact that if you've got rioting and looting in your cities, the people in power have ****ed up.