[Crimson Dynamo]

[Niamh.]

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I have a couple of questions about this. They are good faith questions not meant as gotchas, but as an attempt to try and understand more about how you think.

Who are these men with all this power to tell women what and what not to think and fear? If you take the lawmakers in this country, for example, all of the men with the power to protect women's spaces, mostly appear on the face of it to be anti-trans. If we're talking about the Scottish bill, then it was the equality act in 2010 that opened up womens spaces, and why wasn't there all this outrage back then rather than being used in a modern day culture war? Was there outrage that I just missed?

Do you think it's men telling women to shut up, or do you think that both men and women can be either pro, or anti-trans and both can express their opinions equally vocally? Do you think that trans rights is a civil rights issue?

A really weird issue I have with all of this, is that the anti-trans community seem perfectly fine with sending a person they consider a woman, into a male bathroom, so don't you think they would be more vulnerable, and yet they seem completely excluded in any discussion?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I have a couple of questions about this. They are good faith questions not meant as gotchas, but as an attempt to try and understand more about how you think.

Who are these men with all this power to tell women what and what not to think and fear? If you take the lawmakers in this country, for example, all of the men with the power to protect women's spaces, mostly appear on the face of it to be anti-trans. If we're talking about the Scottish bill, then it was the equality act in 2010 that opened up womens spaces, and why wasn't there all this outrage back then rather than being used in a modern day culture war? Was there outrage that I just missed?

Do you think it's men telling women to shut up, or do you think that both men and women can be either pro, or anti-trans and both can express their opinions equally vocally? Do you think that trans rights is a civil rights issue?

A really weird issue I have with all of this, is that the anti-trans community seem perfectly fine with sending a person they consider a woman, into a male bathroom, so don't you think they would be more vulnerable, and yet they seem completely excluded in any discussion?

Well in regards to this tweet I'm pretty sure JK Rowling is talking about a specific set of men on Twitter who constantly lecture women on this topic (Owen Jones being an example) You don't need to have power to tell someone anything.

In regards to specific bills, a lot of this stuff was done under the radar, people have only started realising what changes have been happening in the last few years (I know that's true for me, for example Self ID in Ireland was snuck in on the back of the very popular Gay marriage referendum here, people voted for Self ID without actually knowing they did that. There was actually a report called The Denton report advising activists to use strategies like that in order to change laws.

Anyway, here’s another tip from the document: ‘Tie your campaign to more popular reform.’

For example:

‘In Ireland, Denmark and Norway, changes to the law on legal gender recognition were put through at the same time as other more popular reforms such as marriage equality legislation. This provided a veil of protection, particularly in Ireland, where marriage equality was strongly supported, but gender identity remained a more difficult issue to win public support for.’
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...ans-lobbyists/

Do you think it's men telling women to shut up, or do you think that both men and women can be either pro, or anti-trans and both can express their opinions equally vocally?
I'm not anti trans, I'm pro women just for clarification. Of course there are women on the "other side" too but men seem more vocal to me and obviously a man telling a woman what a woman is or isn't is more jarring.
Do you think that trans rights is a civil rights issue?
No, I don't. I think it's an identity politics issue, trans people already have the same human rights as everyone else.

A really weird issue I have with all of this, is that the anti-trans community seem perfectly fine with sending a person they consider a woman, into a male bathroom, so don't you think they would be more vulnerable, and yet they seem completely excluded in any discussion?

"Anti-trans Community" is an odd concept but anyway, who is "sending" transmen into mens bathrooms? This is an odd question, if a transman chooses to enter the mens toilets they're choosing to take that risk, the women in the womens toilets aren't choosing to have have men in there?

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well in regards to this tweet I'm pretty sure JK Rowling is talking about a specific set of men on Twitter who constantly lecture women on this topic (Owen Jones being an example) You don't need to have power to tell someone anything.

In regards to specific bills, a lot of this stuff was done under the radar, people have only started realising what changes have been happening in the last few years (I know that's true for me, for example Self ID in Ireland was snuck in on the back of the very popular Gay marriage referendum here, people voted for Self ID without actually knowing they did that. There was actually a report called The Denton report advising activists to use strategies like that in order to change laws.

Anyway, here’s another tip from the document: ‘Tie your campaign to more popular reform.’

For example:

‘In Ireland, Denmark and Norway, changes to the law on legal gender recognition were put through at the same time as other more popular reforms such as marriage equality legislation. This provided a veil of protection, particularly in Ireland, where marriage equality was strongly supported, but gender identity remained a more difficult issue to win public support for.’
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...ans-lobbyists/

Do you think it's men telling women to shut up, or do you think that both men and women can be either pro, or anti-trans and both can express their opinions equally vocally?
I'm not anti trans, I'm pro women just for clarification. Of course there are women on the "other side" too but men seem more vocal to me and obviously a man telling a woman what a woman is or isn't is more jarring.
Do you think that trans rights is a civil rights issue?
No, I don't. I think it's an identity politics issue, trans people already have the same human rights as everyone else.

A really weird issue I have with all of this, is that the anti-trans community seem perfectly fine with sending a person they consider a woman, into a male bathroom, so don't you think they would be more vulnerable, and yet they seem completely excluded in any discussion?

"Anti-trans Community" is an odd concept but anyway, who is "sending" transmen into mens bathrooms? This is an odd question, if a transman chooses to enter the mens toilets they're choosing to take that risk, the women in the womens toilets aren't choosing to have have men in there?

Cheers for taking the time to reply,

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

A really weird issue I have with all of this, is that the anti-trans community seem perfectly fine with sending a person they consider a woman, into a male bathroom, so don't you think they would be more vulnerable, and yet they seem completely excluded in any discussion?

There's a bit of a catch 22 on that one - if they're a trans man who is still obviously biologically female and is at risk, in which case it's their choice to use the men's bathroom, not to excuse the risk but it is a fundamental that people have the autonomy to take their own risks but not insist on risk for others. If they look female and would be at risk, no one is going to question them using female bathrooms.

If (like most trans men over time, because T is a helluva drug) they're a trans man who simply looks like a maybe slightly short bloke then they're not actually at increased risk.

I'm just going to veer into what might be considered offensive territory here becauser there's no other way to talk about this part without talking in circles - there's an elephant in the room that some trans people are convincingly the gender they've chosen and some are not. The bathroom issue in general is far more complicated because of that issue - there's no denying that trans women are at SERIOUS risk of harm in male bathrooms either way - "convincingly female" trans women of sexual assault, "clearly trans" trans women because they might simply have an actual violent bigot turn on them.

There's no easy answer but again the point has never been "let's do nothing, what we have is fine" vs "let's forge ahead with everyone using whichever spaces they fancy being in" ... it's MASSIVELY complicated, it needs a TONNE of work in psychology, sociology and legislation to get anywhere close to a solution but people are, frankly, even understandably, impatient. They don't want to slow down. We don't live in a rational world of contemplation and compromise, we live in a world where it's "All, NOW, or you're a bigot!"

[bots]

cut their cocks off if they want to transition during a trial. Then we will see how committed they are to the process

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

cut their cocks off if they want to transition during a trial. Then we will see how committed they are to the process

I have just read a tweet where transmen can access some gay saunas ONLY if they have top surgery, but men with penises can go where they like?

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I have just read a tweet were transmen can access some gay saunas ONLY if they have top surgery, but men with penises can go where they like?

I hate to sound all Tumblr and say Male Privilege, but ...

Or at least it's the result of male socialisation, where they insist and guilt-trip their way into whatever spaces they want, but give entry requirements to their own.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

I hate to sound all Tumblr and say Male Privilege, but ...

Or at least it's the result of male socialisation, where they insist and guilt-trip their way into whatever spaces they want, but give entry requirements to their own.

This has been a double-standard for many years, ever since the term "genital fetishist" started creeping in as an insult (and pressuring tool) against lesbians.

You're a woman who likes women and you say you're only interested in women with vaginas, and wouldn't consider a sexual relationship with a trans woman because you have no interest in penis: prepare to be blasted as a transphobe/genital fetishist/creep by trans women and gay men.

You're a gay man who gleefully states that not only are you only interested in penis, but in fact the bigger the better, penis and only penis all day long! ... it's rarely branded anything other than completely understandable. Literally zero backlash against gay men who aren't interested in men who don't have penises.

I feel it's important to note here that I think the latter is COMPLETELY VALID and an individuals sexual preferences WHATEVER they may be (disclaimer: consenting adults, obviously) are personal and valid and beyond questioning by anyone else. Gay men are allowed to like penis. Gay women are allowed to enjoy vaginas. It's not weird/creepy/gross for sexually active adults to be able to make these decisions FFS.

But yes a bit off topic - basically I was saying, it's seemingly always been OK for gay men to slam lesbians as transphobes for not dating trans women in one breath and then openly declare that they wouldn't touch a vagina with a 10 foot pole in the next .

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I have just read a tweet where transmen can access some gay saunas ONLY if they have top surgery, but men with penises can go where they like?

Which is a literal double standard tbh .

[user104658]

To suggest that the situation regarding gender, gender transition and the landscape both cultural and political hasn't changed since 2010 is naive at best, deliberately blinkered as a happy medium and flat-out disingenuous at worst.

There wasn't a huge outrage and backlash about trans rights and particularly in regards to women's spaces in the past because in the past the number of trans people was tiny, and in almost their entirety they were people who - whatever one's thoughts on gender/sex - were in themselves acting in good faith.

In 2023 the motivations are diverse and the increase in numbers staggering - you cannot separate it from culture wars. It's different now BECAUSE of culture walls, because of incel/redpill ideologies and cultures, because of rampant "chronically online" misogyny, and because people who are not acting in good faith know that major loopholes are being opened up that they can exploit.

No one dares address it because ANY skepticism is branded transphobia. It's just flat out shocking that trans rights, and massively ironic, has been appropriated by blatant misogyny and redpill/porn culture and there has been no pushback from the genuine LGBT community but here we are. Most I think are just still refusing to believe that it's happening. Some I horribly suspect just don't really care because it doesn't personally affect them.

[bots]

The Slim Terf Reaper has a certain ring to it

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The Slim Terf Reaper has a certain ring to it

I'm just acknowledging biology

[user104658]

Again being fair to TiBB - I managed to get into this on TikTok (I know, I know...) and within 4 or 5 posts it had descended into someone telling me that God is non-binary and Jesus is trans, because if Mary was a virgin Jesus couldn't have had male chromosomes in order to be born male.

I tapped out at that point. Americans eh

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

Again being fair to TiBB - I managed to get into this on TikTok (I know, I know...) and within 4 or 5 posts it had descended into someone telling me that God is non-binary and Jesus is trans, because if Mary was a virgin Jesus couldn't have had male chromosomes in order to be born male.

I tapped out at that point. Americans eh

You're laughing but it's not funny,this is also another reason why more people are identifying as "trans" & "non binary" thanks to sh1tty sh1tty tiktok , there's no proper education or genuine information, you can simply be what you want without any dysphoria or anything.
These tiktokers just want views & attention , and the scary thing is alot of their audience are children. So yeah things will only get worse.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

Again being fair to TiBB - I managed to get into this on TikTok (I know, I know...) and within 4 or 5 posts it had descended into someone telling me that God is non-binary and Jesus is trans, because if Mary was a virgin Jesus couldn't have had male chromosomes in order to be born male.

I tapped out at that point. Americans eh

The Americans are the only people that can nearly push me into Xenophobia.

[Liam-]

Tiktok isn’t making people trans don’t be so bloody easily led

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Tiktok isn’t making people trans don’t be so bloody easily led

Here we go again
If you don't think a social media platform as big as tiktok isn't influencing people's choices,then I think you're the naive one .

And I'm talking impressionable kids ,who are usually the main demographic of these channels. It's the same with YouTube ...when there's a big old loud voice with alot of followers ,and people hang on their every word.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Tiktok isn’t making people trans don’t be so bloody easily led

TikTok is 100% part of the increase in young teenage girls identifying as boys and teenagers in general identifying as non-binary. Is it making people genuinely trans? No, it's an aesthetic the same way that skaters/goths were the aesthetic when I was at high school. It's also basically harmless IF it's allowed to just be what it is and most of them just do a bit of experimenting and then figure themselves out which is completely normal for teens.

It would be fine if it was allowed to just be what it is but it's also simply true that TikTok and other social media sells a version of reality that is patently false; e.g. that puberty blockers are reversible or a good idea, or that reassignment surgery is a simple process and not a major bodily trauma with permanent health consequences.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

TikTok is 100% part of the increase in young teenage girls identifying as boys and teenagers in general identifying as non-binary. Is it making people genuinely trans? No, it's an aesthetic the same way that skaters/goths were the aesthetic when I was at high school. It's also basically harmless IF it's allowed to just be what it is and most of them just do a bit of experimenting and then figure themselves out which is completely normal for teens.

It would be fine if it was allowed to just be what it is but it's also simply true that TikTok and other social media sells a version of reality that is patently false; e.g. that puberty blockers are reversible or a good idea, or that reassignment surgery is a simple process and not a major bodily trauma with permanent health consequences.

Exactly
This is why we're in this mess , I can't stand tiktok.

I truly believe that alot of these youngsters would have just been goth or emo if it was back when I was at school,but now with all these influencers they're fed other ideas .

[Liam-]

No, social media platforms aren’t making people trans, like they can’t make people gay, or bisexual or you can’t make someone straight, stop parroting things that ate just blatantly not true if you look at them with even an ounce of logic or thought other than ‘we have to stop trans people!’

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Liam-

No, social media platforms aren’t making people trans, like they can’t make people gay, or bisexual or you can’t make someone straight, stop parroting things that ate just blatantly not true if you look at them with even an ounce of logic or thought other than ‘we have to stop trans people!’

I'd be genuinely interested to hear if you think the same about non-binary identities.

I mean I'm just going to be real here and say that my daughter has a TONNE of natal-female friends who identify as non-binary. They look, sound, and socialise as entirely female - but they certainly claim to be non-binary and quite a few identify as boys. To be clear; they identify as boys but all of their friends are girls, they're "gay" and have crushes on straight boys, and they are visually and socially quite clearly female other than having short hair. She already (by EARLY teens) has multiple friends who are biologically female, were "male" for a year to 18 months (with a new name and everything) and are ALREADY back to being female with their original name. This is anecdotal yes, but it's also documented to be the case in schools all across the western world.

It's not the same as sexuality in the slightest, entirely unrelated and not even really comparable, and there's just no doubt whatsoever that there's an element of aesthetics and trends for young people.

Again not saying that "real" dysphoria isn't a thing, just that there are multiple very different things at play here and one of them is absolutely a social trend. Again, in my day these same kids would have been buying a leather duster coat and chains, loading up on eyeliner and calling themselves "Azrael". It is the same thing. LGBTQ has been thoroughly appropriated by a tonne of young people who will shed it as soon as they find a style they like better.

[GoldHeart]

You know something ...I don't know what Aretha Franklin would say if she was alive today, are they seriously trying to cancel her song !?? ! . Ridiculous .

Aretha Franklin was a legend in the music industry!! .