[bots]

i hope they record the individuals who vote to rob pensioners

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bots

i hope they record the individuals who vote to rob pensioners

I heard last night that the majority will vote for the cut for fear of losing the Whip, they may abstain but there in no guarantee they wont be punished for doing that...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I heard last night that the majority will vote for the cut for fear of losing the Whip, they may abstain but there in no guarantee they wont be punished for doing that...

Ahhh... Democracy in action.

[bots]

It's going to be quite enlightening if all of labour vote to rob pensioners and everyone else supports them, which is the likely outcome

Even enforcing the whip to rob pensioners is an obscene act

[Cherie]

ir Keir Starmer faces his first major rebellion this week amid warnings cuts to winter fuel payments will become his "poll tax moment".

Angry MPs branded the decision "brutal" and "shameful" and fear the government will be blamed if pensioners die in the cold.

The Prime Minister is fighting to keep the lid on an explosive row as backbenchers and union leaders pile on pressure for a U-turn.


Twelve Labour rebels have signed a Commons motion demanding a re-think, backed by six colleagues suspended for voting against the child benefit cap.

Last night government whips were accused of making "terrifying" threats to keep their troops in line ahead of a crunch vote on Tuesday. On the same day, Labour's union paymasters will back the rebels in a vote at the TUC conference in Brighton.
Sir Keir is under fire after ruling that up to 10 million elderly people will lose the winter fuel payment - which pays up to £300 - to plug a "black hole" in public finances.

The decision was announced just before train drivers were given inflation-busting pay rises. While ministers are confident of winning Tuesday's vote, they are concerned about the long-term effects of simmering discontent on the back benches.

Some fear the winter fuel row will dog him like the poll tax, the disastrous policy that brought down former Tory PM Margaret Thatcher.

But as one insider observed: "Thatcher had been in power for 11 years when she made that blunder. Keir has been in office for just 65 days."

Party insiders said new MPs were "terrified" by the "ruthless" strong-arming of party whips.

Few Labour MPs, if any will, vote against the cuts but whips fear many will abstain or to back the Government only under duress, with insiders fearing the leadership is storing up discontent that will encourage future battles.

Union activists also want a U-turn, with Unite, Usdaw and the PCS opposing the cuts.

Former home secretary James Cleverly, who is standing for the Tory leadership, said last night: "As the reality of what he is doing dawns on his MPs, Starmer is facing his very own poll tax moment."

Labour's Rosie Duffield, a former whip, warned: "We are actually going to see people die."

She said: "All MPs have been inundated with emails. It's not just from those constituents affected, it's also their families and people who are really concerned about the most vulnerable of those constituents.

"People who have ongoing health concerns, learning disabilities, the absolutely most vulnerable of the older people are the people we have got to look out for."

Ms Duffield highlighted research showing 4,950 died last winter due to cold, saying: "It just feels particularly brutal."

She added: "We know that pensioners living on just £13,000 a year will lose out. I find it particularly shameful that the lowest-paid MP, backbenchers like me, get £91,000 a year and here we are making decisions that will affect people on £13,000."

But highlighting the ruthless operation to ensure MPs fall into line, she said: "The government has made it very clear to MPs how they are going to behave towards us if we do vote against."

Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride, a Tory leadership hopeful, will lead opposition to the cuts in the Commons this week, and appeal to Labour MPs to follow their consciences.

He said: "If in your heart you know that this is deeply unfair and going to be punished for a lot of people who are vulnerable and not able to change their circumstances, we're giving you the chance now to vote this down."

Former Work and Pensions Secretary Esther McVey said the move could destroy Sir Keir's reputation in a similar way to the disastrous "mini-budget" which forced former Prime Minister Liz Truss out of Number 10, or economic chaos which forced the UK to leave the ERM under John Major.

Ten million pensioners will no longer receive winter fuel payments of up to £300 under the means-testing plan announced by Chancellor Rachel Reeves. Only people on Pension Credit, including individuals with incomes below £11,344 or pensioner couples with a joint income below £17,313, will continue to be eligible.

Backbenchers are pleading with Ms Reeves to announce help for low-income pensioners before Tuesday's vote but Downing Street sources indicated there will be no concessions.

Number 10 pointed out that the Government was already helping people in need after announcing last week that it is providing almost £500 million to help people struggling with bills.

There is anger over the decision to hold a vote at all, as this is not required in order to introduce means-testing. The Government has in fact already introduced the required regulations and they come into force on September 16.

But a cross-party House of Lords Committee condemned Ministers for rushing in the changes, saying: "The policy seems to be being introduced at a pace that does not permit appropriate scrutiny."

The House of Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee said it was "concerning" that winter fuel payments are being cut after energy regulator Ofgem had announced that the cost of gas and electricity for a typical household will rise by £149 per year, an increase of 10 percent.

Labour MPs also fear the cuts will cause a winter NHS crisis, with hospitals overwhelmed by pensioners who have fallen ill because they cannot afford to heat their homes.

Former shadow cabinet minister Rachael Maskell, who worked in the NHS for 20 years, said: "If people go cold the pressure in the health service over winter will be astronomical. It will make seeing a GP or getting into A&E much harder."

The motion signed by a dozen Labour MPs was also backed by ex-Labour MPs currently suspended, including former Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell, and two independent MPs elected on a pro-Gaza platform.

A Government spokesman said: "We are absolutely committed to supporting pensioners and giving them the dignity and security they deserve in retirement. That's why through our commitment to protect the triple lock, over 12 million pensioners could see their State Pensions increase by almost a thousand pounds over the next five years.

"But given the dire state of the public finances we have inherited, it's right that we target support to those who need it most while we take the difficult decisions needed to fix the foundations of our economy. Over a million pensioners will continue to receive the Winter Fuel Payment and eligible pensioners will also be able to benefit from the £150 Warm Home Discount scheme from October to help with their energy bills over winter.

"We are urging pensioners to come forward and check their eligibility for Pension Credit to ensure as many people in need as possible have access to this support."

The End Fuel Poverty Coalition has estimated that 4,950 excess winter deaths in the UK were caused by living in cold homes over winter and in a report last year Prof Sir Chris Whitty, the Chief Medical Officer for England, said "cold homes and fuel poverty are directly linked to excess winter deaths".

[joeysteele]

This is an obscene idea.

I know Labour members are and I hope more Labour MPs join the move against it.

It's just completely the wrong way to save any funds.
Ridiculous.

[arista]

[Twelve Labour rebels have signed a
Commons motion demanding a re-think,
backed by six colleagues suspended for voting
against the child benefit cap.]


Yes if they get a Vote on it
could force Starmer to U-turn.

[arista]

BBC News Text :
[Starmer faces his first major rebellion
this week over planned cuts to winter
fuel payments and warns it will become
his "poll tax moment".
The paper says Labour MPs care calling
the decision - to make the payment
only to those on low incomes who
receive certain benefits
- "brutal" and "shameful".]

[arista]

[bots]

The prime minister has told the BBC his new government is "going to have to be unpopular" as he defended his "tough" decision to cut winter fuel payments.

Speaking on Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg in his first major interview in Downing Street, Sir Keir Starmer said he was determined to deliver change but this meant having to "do the difficult things now".


-------------------------

It's tough to decide to kill old people .... but hey ho .... Merry Christmas!

Killer Starmer will regret this

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bots

The prime minister has told the BBC his new government is "going to have to be unpopular" as he defended his "tough" decision to cut winter fuel payments.

Speaking on Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg in his first major interview in Downing Street, Sir Keir Starmer said he was determined to deliver change but this meant having to "do the difficult things now".


-------------------------

It's tough to decide to kill old people .... but hey ho .... Merry Christmas!

The people with the broadest shoulders will have to take the load, pensioners on 13k a year

John McDonnell was just interviewed on LBC, he said the year that Gordon Brown introduced this excess deaths dropped by 50 per cent, so for anyone to say that Starmer and Reeves are not pursuing a policy to kill off pensioners are fooling themselves

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The people with the broadest shoulders will have to take the load, pensioners on 13k a year

John McDonnell was just interviewed on LBC, he said the year that Gordon Brown introduced this excess deaths dropped by 50 per cent, so for anyone to say that Starmer and Reeves are not pursuing a policy to kill off pensioners are fooling themselves

I mean if you want to completely remove any semblance of heart from the equation and only look at the numbers...

Dead pensioners is great for the economy. I would possibly go as far as to say, "fewer elderly people" is better for the economy of a country than literally anything else.

Elderly people cost money (care, pensions, the vast bulk of NHS expenditure) and dead elderly people are an economic boon (inheritance get spent, houses get sold, carers return to work).

To be clear I'm not saying that any of this is moral or good - it abhorrent and dystopian - but I think we're going to see it as an increasing trend. They do not want elderly people in the economy unless they're wealthy enough to support themselves or have families with enough money to do so.

More charitably I think that's another part of it - they don't necessarily want elderly people to choose not to use their heating, they want the message to be very much out there that they won't get help, because they want families to help with elderly winter bills instead and know that most people would be (understandably) ashamed to ask. They're sadly not accounting for the fact that many elderly people simply don't have anyone checking in very often.

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by bots

The prime minister has told the BBC his new government is "going to have to be unpopular" as he defended his "tough" decision to cut winter fuel payments.

Speaking on Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg in his first major interview in Downing Street, Sir Keir Starmer said he was determined to deliver change but this meant having to "do the difficult things now".


-------------------------

It's tough to decide to kill old people .... but hey ho .... Merry Christmas!

Aye, watching him now.
Perhaps he should allow a free vote on the matter and not whip up anti democratic choice.

[arista]

[bots]

Elderly will die over the winter and it's going to be firmly laid at killer Starmer's door

[user104658]

He knows fine well people will largely have forgotten about it by the time it actually matters to him (the next election).

[bots]

oap's will die every winter and it will be brought up every time, so it's not something that will be forgotten or go away

[Liam-]

Old people die in the winter every single year, I never once heard people blame the tories or claim they were killing off pensioners

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Old people die in the winter every single year, I never once heard people blame the tories or claim they were killing off pensioners

eh? they didnt try by taking their fuel allowance away, I am sure you know this, its kinda hilarious that you back the Labour party so much you will defend them taking away fuel allowances, if you read further up John McDonell said excess deaths FELL by 50 per cent after Gordon Brown introduced it, but hey put your head in the sand, they will be coming for you soon ......they want everyone working

[arista]

Labour Rachel Maskell MP (York Central)

Is Ready to Vote against PM Starmer
on the Tuesday Vote

She just confirmed on Ch4HDnews.

[joeysteele]

It will be and in my view, RIGHTLY, the case that there will be much closer scrutiny now of the elderly over Winter.

I think the cold weather payments too, need looking at, they should not just be triggered after 7 consecutive days of freezing or below.
However should be after 7 days immaterial of when the 7th day is reached.

However, I am disappointed and dismayed.
Moreso though disgusted with this government I fought to elect.

I cannot support the elderly losing this payment.
This whole government of whoever support this cutting of this payment WILL be responsible for any deaths related to not being able to heat homes.
No doubt about it.

I still cannot believe it is being done, despite the outcry from the CAB, the age charities and other organisations too.
Strength and power abused is not what I hoped for here.

If this goes ahead, if pensioners die because of not being able to PROPERLY and FULLY keep their homes heated.
Then my membership of Labour will be terminated and I will not be the only one by a long way.

No, this is WRONG and it's as heartless as anything the Cons ever did in government.
Yes HEARTLESS, that's exactly all it is.
Reeves is a disgrace.
If Starmer cannot stand up to her then he will be equally as bad.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

It will be and in my view, RIGHTLY, the case that there will be much closer scrutiny now of the elderly over Winter.

I think the cold weather payments too, need looking at, they should not just be triggered after 7 consecutive days of freezing or below.
However should be after 7 days immaterial of when the 7th day is reached.

However, I am disappointed and dismayed.
Moreso though disgusted with this government I fought to elect.

I cannot support the elderly losing this payment.
This whole government of whoever support this cutting of this payment WILL be responsible for any deaths related to not being able to heat homes.
No doubt about it.

I still cannot believe it is being done, despite the outcry from the CAB, the age charities and other organisations too.
Strength and power abused is not what I hoped for here.

If this goes ahead, if pensioners die because of not being able to PROPERLY and FULLY keep their homes heated.
Then my membership of Labour will be terminated and I will not be the only one by a long way.

No, this is WRONG and it's as heartless as anything the Cons ever did in government.
Yes HEARTLESS, that's exactly all it is.
Reeves is a disgrace.
If Starmer cannot stand up to her then he will be equally as bad.

That is sad to see Joey, I must admit I didn't expect this from Labour I couldnt vote for anyone as I was just sick of being lied to, that said I never thought Labour's first port of call would be pensioners, if we are all going to feel this pain it will be interesting where else they will find 'broad shoulders from'

[MTVN]

The Tories did also get a lot of blame for elderly people not being able to afford heating

Remember Boris being grilled on the story of the woman who apparently rode the bus all day to stay warm?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by MTVN

The Tories did also get a lot of blame for elderly people not being able to afford heating

Remember Boris being grilled on the story of the woman who apparently rode the bus all day to stay warm?

They will tell you that never happened or that community centres opened when energy prices spiked for people to go to keep warm, and that was when people had government support in addition to the winter fuel allowance, now they will have neither, prices are still as high but according to some Labour die hards this will not result in any deaths....its just a myth, and Starmer and Reeves are apparently unaware of any impact this will have......mind boggling.......

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Cherie

They will tell you that never happened or that community centres opened when energy prices spiked for people to go to keep warm, and that was when people had government support in addition to the winter fuel allowance, now they will have neither, prices are still as high but according to some Labour die hards this will not result in any deaths....its just a myth, and Starmer and Reeves are apparently unaware of any impact this will have......mind boggling.......

Maybe stamers thinks deaths only happen when its a conservative making the cuts.That would explain his prediction that thousands would have died under the tory winter cuts.