[DemolitionRed]

Better watch your backs boys because voting to leave the EU might not actually mean Brexit
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...an-Brexit.html

A heavily disguised Schengen Treaty comes to mind.

[DemolitionRed]

Whenever I go to Europe, I have to go through passport control where they often scrutinize my passport and its the same when I come back into the UK. I've never had any difficulty getting into Europe but then I've never had any difficulty getting into America, Africa, Malaysia, Egypt or any other country where I've needed a visa. The only difference is, they sometimes but not always stamp my passport and dictate how long I can stay.

Whilst we may restrict Europeans being able to live and work here the visa restrictions on certain countries, including America and the Middle East, won't change from what they are now, why would they? None European people will still apply to live and work here just like they do now. The only difference its going to make is to Europeans and that includes us.

How will that protect us?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

No one can guarantee anything, joey. However, if we spent half the money we pour into Europe on a daily basis, on improving security in this country we'd all sleep safer.

All that stuff aside though, the bottom line for me is this: I do not want an unelected body making laws in my country.

£4.5 billion 'nett' would not actually go that far Livia and also we have no idea as to what level of trading costs,tariffs and conditions would be imposed on the UK as to trading and other deals.
That quite frankly I believe, would see that 4.5 billion pretty much gone without really being able to help as to very much at all as to other issues in the UK.

I'd agree the reforming the law side of things as to the EU needs to be looked at but I will never see that as a reason to quit the EU after so many decades.
With more Nations in the EU I believe more can now be done as to reforming the EU anyway after Cameron has started the ball rolling in a small way.

However the responses at this time from you were with respect challenging the point of IS and security and indicating you felt the UK could be better and safer out the EU with closed borders.
That was what I was addressing at this moment in time.

However again, this is an instance very clearly as to where I and the Nation knows where we are in the EU as to the threats of IS,we know we are under threat from them at this time.

However with respect yet again you as an 'out' individual still cannot,(although you appear to dismiss being in the EU as beneficial in any way as to dealing with the threats of IS),say how better and safer or even 'if' we would be guaranteed any safer as to that issue out of the EU, rather than in.
Other than mentioning closed borders which really believe will not totally stop terrorists and groups like IS, getting here if they really want to and it will not stop the threats of any attacks or even actual attacks taking place eventually.

The figure I guoted above should be approx 9 billion not 4.5 billion.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Whenever I go to Europe, I have to go through passport control where they often scrutinize my passport and its the same when I come back into the UK. I've never had any difficulty getting into Europe but then I've never had any difficulty getting into America, Africa, Malaysia, Egypt or any other country where I've needed a visa. The only difference is, they sometimes but not always stamp my passport and dictate how long I can stay.

Whilst we may restrict Europeans being able to live and work here the visa restrictions on certain countries, including America and the Middle East, won't change from what they are now, why would they? None European people will still apply to live and work here just like they do now. The only difference its going to make is to Europeans and that includes us.

How will that protect us?

You must be one of a kind, having no trouble travelling around the world.. or your travels have not been recent. But then you also think that "we do not live in dangerous times", according to one of your much earlier posts.

I've had trouble getting into the USA. I have been kept at immigration for a long time because I have Arabic stamps in my passport as I often travel to the Middle East for work. And I'm regularly checked going into Israel even though I do a lot of my work from there... again because I have Arabic stamps. The reason for this is that they understand that there is a terrorist problem and that the terrorists are almost exclusively Middle Eastern Muslims. We are not allowed to be any more vigilant than we already are because an unelected body dictates how we handle entry to and exit from this country.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

£4.5 billion 'nett' would not actually go that far Livia and also we have no idea as to what level of trading costs,tariffs and conditions would be imposed on the UK as to trading and other deals.
That quite frankly I believe, would see that 4.5 billion pretty much gone without really being able to help as to very much at all as to other issues in the UK.

I'd agree the reforming the law side of things as to the EU needs to be looked at but I will never see that as a reason to quit the EU after so many decades.
With more Nations in the EU I believe more can now be done as to reforming the EU anyway after Cameron has started the ball rolling in a small way.

However the responses at this time from you were with respect challenging the point of IS and security and indicating you felt the UK could be better and safer out the EU with closed borders.
That was what I was addressing at this moment in time.

However again, this is an instance very clearly as to where I and the Nation knows where we are in the EU as to the threats of IS,we know we are under threat from them at this time.

However with respect yet again you as an 'out' individual still cannot,(although you appear to dismiss being in the EU as beneficial in any way as to dealing with the threats of IS),say how better and safer or even 'if' we would be guaranteed any safer as to that issue out of the EU, rather than in.
Other than mentioning closed borders which really believe will not totally stop terrorists and groups like IS, getting here if they really want to and it will not stop the threats of any attacks or even actual attacks taking place eventually.

£4.5 billion IS a lot of money, whichever way you twist it.

And no, I don't see one single reason to remain. Do you think cooperation between the security services would stop if we left? Of course not...

We should be in control of our own borders and of our own laws. If you are happy to have an unelected body dictate how we live here, I am not.

[Denver]

The cons of staying in Europe by far outweigh the pros

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

We're already aligned with NATO.

Who said we weren't? that is my point that the issues we face are zero to do with being in the EU or Shengen it may be our alliance to NATO? which in essence is another unelected body, but one with which most have no issue with.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

You must be one of a kind, having no trouble travelling around the world.. or your travels have not been recent. But then you also think that "we do not live in dangerous times", according to one of your much earlier posts.

I've had trouble getting into the USA. I have been kept at immigration for a long time because I have Arabic stamps in my passport as I often travel to the Middle East for work. And I'm regularly checked going into Israel even though I do a lot of my work from there... again because I have Arabic stamps. The reason for this is that they understand that there is a terrorist problem and that the terrorists are almost exclusively Middle Eastern Muslims. We are not allowed to be any more vigilant than we already are because an unelected body dictates how we handle entry to and exit from this country.

I think you also attributed that quote to me at some point, I've had a nosy and can't find a post where DR has said anything of the sort. You may have misquoted.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Livia

You must be one of a kind, having no trouble travelling around the world.. or your travels have not been recent. But then you also think that "we do not live in dangerous times", according to one of your much earlier posts.

I've had trouble getting into the USA. I have been kept at immigration for a long time because I have Arabic stamps in my passport as I often travel to the Middle East for work. And I'm regularly checked going into Israel even though I do a lot of my work from there... again because I have Arabic stamps. The reason for this is that they understand that there is a terrorist problem and that the terrorists are almost exclusively Middle Eastern Muslims. We are not allowed to be any more vigilant than we already are because an unelected body dictates how we handle entry to and exit from this country.

I travel a lot and have travelled internationally very recently, including America. My old passport had Middle Eastern stamps in it because like you, I've spent a reasonable amount of time in the ME. I still had no problem getting into America but that was over five years ago. Still, its fairly unusual for English women to have Arabic or MD stamps in their passports.

The only problem I've ever had with border control is with my dog. Even with all his papers in order, we've had times when we suspected that wasn't going to be enough.

I believe we are just as likely to be hit by lightening as we are to be a victim of a bomb. That isn't naivety on my part, its statistics, so just as I wouldn't shelter under a tree in a lightening storm or visit high risk countries and stray off the beaten track, I just get on and enjoy life.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I think you also attributed that quote to me at some point, I've had a nosy and can't find a post where DR has said anything of the sort. You may have misquoted.

I think I once said that I don't suspect every Muslim woman wearing an abaya to be concealing a dagger.

I live in the Heart of London Kizzy, I walk amongst Muslims every single day, I shop in their shops, queue with them for buses and even ride on the tube with them and omg, I've even been known to ride in their taxis. Its like playing fecking Russian roulette every time I venture out....NOT

I do though, think we are living in dangerous times but my fears are more about the Neoliberal take over.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I think I once said that I don't suspect every Muslim woman wearing an abaya to be concealing a dagger.

I live in the Heart of London Kizzy, I walk amongst Muslims every single day, I shop in their shops, queue with them for buses and even ride on the tube with them and omg, I've even been known to ride in their taxis. Its like playing fecking Russian roulette every time I venture out....NOT

I do though, think we are living in dangerous times but my fears are more about the Neoliberal take over.

I saw the post in the MI5 thread, it was taken completely out of context from what was said as I see it DR.
Your comparison between 'dangerous times' here and in Syria was totally justified imo.

[Kizzy]

'Defence chiefs warn Britain's role in world will be diminished as it emerges that the Tories will not commit to spending 2 per cent of GDP on defence'

'He will reiterate the Conservative’s commitment to replacing all four of Britain’s nuclear submarines at a cost of £25 billion.'

It seems the best defence is attack... The savings of 4 billion to the EU as well as the 4 billion meant to be taken from the disabled will now have to be found elsewhere...or not at all.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gene...ce-target.html

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

£4.5 billion IS a lot of money, whichever way you twist it.

And no, I don't see one single reason to remain. Do you think cooperation between the security services would stop if we left? Of course not...

We should be in control of our own borders and of our own laws. If you are happy to have an unelected body dictate how we live here, I am not.

I wasn't twisting anything actually, just stating a fact that of all we pay to the EU the nett figure is 'not' in govt circles a huge amount of funds at all.
We throw half billions here there and everywhere in aid and whenever we get ourselves into conflict in other Countries such as Libya.

From that 'nett' figure as the move now s to finance rather than defence and dealing with terrorism, how much more of that 4.5 billion supposedly saved would then be offset by some,not all, companies removing bases ad investment in the UK if we leave.

I have no idea what level of cooperation will being place should we leave, can you guarantees even that,will the EU definitely leave in place all we operate now,if we leave, will all the other 27 Nations of the EU agree to that, will you assure us that 'will' be the case and not leave all to chance and thinking.
I am not prepared too.

My frustration looms from the fact no one from 'out' gives us any assurances, that even may be equal to, and for sure not be better than the assurances we see in place now, despite all the wrongs of past treaties and deals with the EU.

I don't see this as a vote for 'me' only, I am looking at my Country and the future generations of this Country, who I find most want to remain in.

If we leave and this all goes pear shaped after we do,that future generation/s will have far more to moan about against us as to those voting in this, than any problem we may at times have economically and financially as a Nation.


I am actually happy to have the EU parliament to who we send MEPs have a say at times in the UK as to social justice, workers rights and human rights too.
At times as Cameron said today things are not always got right but working through them is the way forward not being petty and running off home with the ball.
I really don't think a few irritating laws and controls actually in a major way dictate how we live in the UK,far more has changed in the UK from migration from outside the EU,not just from migration from within the EU.

Those things are things to be debated and reformed over the future and we may get further if the UK sent to the EU parliament,those who wished to work with it, rather than say UKIP, who despite getting their fat salaries from the EU only ever present the negatives.


Anyway,I asked the question,to you who engaged with others on here and myself as to the terrorists issue,would leaving the EU make us safer for sure, leave us the same or even possibly make us more at risk.
I got no answer again.
So I repeat again, I know there are risks now as to an IS incident in the UK,I am sure that will happen while in the EU just as I am sure it will if out.
I'd rather than,in that scenario not take any chance now and remain working solidly as a fill member of the EU helping make decisions as to the best ways forward.
On that issue, no reason at all to suppose we would do better alone or avoid any major incident.
Just no answers are ever forthcoming as to improvement in leaving the EU,so that is another reason I see no point of going through the uncertain upheaval of doing so.

Sadly you see no single reason to remain,which I find amazing as to yourself,I can see both negative and positives to both scenarios,however the negatives as to leaving outweigh the positives for me.

I am 24 but life has well and truly taught me already, few things are all black or white,that just about all things have grey areas and nothing is all good or all bad and for me that applies to being in the U or out of it.
However I would never change something that was there already for something no one can give me assurances of future success even such as we have in place now.

Please note.The figure I quoted should be approx 9 billion not 4.5 billion.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

£4.5 billion 'nett' would not actually go that far Livia and also we have no idea as to what level of trading costs,tariffs and conditions would be imposed on the UK as to trading and other deals.
That quite frankly I believe, would see that 4.5 billion pretty much gone without really being able to help as to very much at all as to other issues in the UK.

I'd agree the reforming the law side of things as to the EU needs to be looked at but I will never see that as a reason to quit the EU after so many decades.
With more Nations in the EU I believe more can now be done as to reforming the EU anyway after Cameron has started the ball rolling in a small way.

However the responses at this time from you were with respect challenging the point of IS and security and indicating you felt the UK could be better and safer out the EU with closed borders.
That was what I was addressing at this moment in time.

However again, this is an instance very clearly as to where I and the Nation knows where we are in the EU as to the threats of IS,we know we are under threat from them at this time.

However with respect yet again you as an 'out' individual still cannot,(although you appear to dismiss being in the EU as beneficial in any way as to dealing with the threats of IS),say how better and safer or even 'if' we would be guaranteed any safer as to that issue out of the EU, rather than in.
Other than mentioning closed borders which really believe will not totally stop terrorists and groups like IS, getting here if they really want to and it will not stop the threats of any attacks or even actual attacks taking place eventually.

It was £8.5b net last week, you've taken £4b off

[Johnnyuk123]

Basically those in favour of staying in the EU are saying that in order for me to vote to leave the EU i need absolute guarantees. Well i have some news for you on that one........drum roll............
there are no guarantees either way you vote, that's life for yah!
The ones wanting to stay simply because of the unknown remind me of the situation of a beautiful young woman who's husband abuses and beats her daily, year in year out she takes those beatings, he calls her ugly, fat etc and she stays silent and never answers him back. He knows that this beautiful young woman is well and truly under his control. Then one day a new man comes along who doesn't hit her, he just see's a beautiful young woman and falls head over heals in love with her. He then plucks up the courage to ask her to leave her thug of a husband to start a new bruise free life with him and she says.....erm thanks but i'll stick with that thug of a husband of mine and continue to take daily beatings rather than risk taking a chance of real happiness with you.

[Alf]

[QUOTE=joeysteele;8573932]Quite frankly for me what happened today makes me stronger as to staying in.QUOTE]
But you already wanted to stay in.

So I'm glad for you that you took something positive from the atrocities.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Alf

It was £8.5b net last week, you've taken £4b off

You are totally correct I did,the figure is indeed more like 8.5 to 9 billion.
I stand fully corrected on that.


I still stand by my view that even that amount would soon be eroded quickly if out and not really go anywhere where we would see a benefit from it.

[joeysteele]

[QUOTE=Alf;8574979]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Quite frankly for me what happened today makes me stronger as to staying in.QUOTE]
But you already wanted to stay in.

So I'm glad for you that you took something positive from the atrocities.

I took nothing positive from the atrocities because there are no positives to take from it.

However, what the atrocities would make me feel more like doing is standing closer with Europe as most feelings do guide most to that way of thinking when disaster hits anywhere in the World.

No need at all for such pathetic sarcasm.
Also I said it made me stronger to staying in.
There is still a bit of me that would look at being out if I ever got concrete answers to the questions I ask from anyone from the out side.

However if all they can do is insult others like you have tried here,then good luck to you on that one as to people listening to you( whether you want them to or not).

[DemolitionRed]

Without trade agreements you can't have trade in or out of the country and at the moment, all our trade agreements are EU trade agreements which affects trade in Europe and every other country in the world but these agreements are European agreements, not singular countries or UK agreements.

It could take 10 years to put trade agreements in place and in that time there is no legal framework for trade to take place, which means British exporters would go out of business en masse.

The widget manufacturer in the UK who supplies a car manufacturer in Germany would suddenly discover that the car manufacturer in Germany is no longer ordering their parts because the generation of paperwork and port duties and custom agreements and declarations would make those wigits an unafordable hassle to the buyer. The buyer can simply sorce a new supplier within the EU.

That doesn't mean I'm not wary of the EU. If I thought for a moment that we could surstain ourselves on local production and restore our national economy, then I'd be going for the out vote. I can't stand this government but I also think the EU are trying to create a neo-liberal state and I also believe the EU is a puppet to Washington.

Its been predicted by a few political philosophers, that in the short run up to the vote on Europe, America will pump millions of US dollars into the “in” campaign. Its not happened yet but its starting to feel like it might and if it does, I will definately be changing my mind and voting to get out.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

Basically those in favour of staying in the EU are saying that in order for me to vote to leave the EU i need absolute guarantees. Well i have some news for you on that one........drum roll............
there are no guarantees either way you vote, that's life for yah!
The ones wanting to stay simply because of the unknown remind me of the situation of a beautiful young woman who's husband abuses and beats her daily, year in year out she takes those beatings, he calls her ugly, fat etc and she stays silent and never answers him back. He knows that this beautiful young woman is well and truly under his control. Then one day a new man comes along who doesn't hit her, he just see's a beautiful young woman and falls head over heals in love with her. He then plucks up the courage to ask her to leave her thug of a husband to start a new bruise free life with him and she says.....erm thanks but i'll stick with that thug of a husband of mine and continue to take daily beatings rather than risk taking a chance of real happiness with you.

Not so, the only guarantees we know are from being in the EU, we know there are likely bad times to come, we know there will be recessions.
We know from our last 3 decades at least of being in the EU that we have been able to come through those recessions and difficult challenging times as full member.

Those are guarantees we have and that we would be also be helped if necessary too as well as working together with the EU to work through those difficult times.

We also have the guarantees in place that we can be successful, and are successful as full members as we have been over the last decades.

So those are guarantees there in place.We will be successful and overcome economic problems as we have for all that time despite many challenges and different govts.
Those are facts you always seem to avoid.

Now, with full respect where exactly are just your even solid assurances we could even do as well never mind do better than we have and are now.
In addition also your assurances we certainly would not do worse even.

That is a big difference from the in side to the out,it is easy just to dismiss all the in side say but if you do, to be credible, you have to come up with a better picture you can at least assure will be the case, with all new costings and conditions once out included.
As well as explaining just how on our own after so many decades we would be able to ride through economic challenges and would for sure, those investing in the UK to gain the best access to the EU through us, would they stay with us, if we had big problems and ended up struggling, knowing the EU would not assist us after we are out.

I think the domestic comparison is a poor one, that's just me however but here's another poor scenario from me this time.
Would you take a child out of a School you maybe didn't care much for but in which they were successful and then put them in a school you knew nothing about and could learn little about.
I certainly wouldn't.

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Not so, the only guarantees we know are from being in the EU, we know there are likely bad times to come, we know there will be recessions.
We know from our last 3 decades at least of being in the EU that we have been able to come through those recessions and difficult challenging times as full member.

Those are guarantees we have and that we would be also be helped if necessary too as well as working together with the EU to work through those difficult times.

We also have the guarantees in place that we can be successful, and are successful as full members as we have been over the last decades.

So those are guarantees there in place.We will be successful and overcome economic problems as we have for all that time despite many challenges and different govts.
Those are facts you always seem to avoid.

Now, with full respect where exactly are just your even solid assurances we could even do as well never mind do better than we have and are now.
In addition also your assurances we certainly would not do worse even.

That is a big difference from the in side to the out,it is easy just to dismiss all the in side say but if you do, to be credible, you have to come up with a better picture you can at least assure will be the case, with all new costings and conditions once out included.
As well as explaining just how on our own after so many decades we would be able to ride through economic challenges and would for sure, those investing in the UK to gain the best access to the EU through us, would they stay with us, if we had big problems and ended up struggling, knowing the EU would not assist us after we are out.

I think the domestic comparison is a poor one, that's just me however but here's another poor scenario from me this time.
Would you take a child out of a School you maybe didn't care much for but in which they were successful and then put them in a school you knew nothing about and could learn little about.
I certainly wouldn't.

I completely disagree with you.
The sooner we are out of it the better.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

I completely disagree with you.
The sooner we are out of it the better.

That is of no surprise whatsoever.
I merely chose to respond to show the in guarantees of what has been, is, and will continue to be we stay.

As usual I got no answers to assurances of the terms tariffs, conditions to be imposed once out, any success or lack of it or how without the EU we would now work through as quickly as possible any difficulties that may come our way in the future.

Disagreeing with someone is all well and good and your right to do so but without the actual dealing with factual answers,that is really all you do.
Disagree and offer nothing as to a successful and worthwhile alternative from where the UK is now and has been for the last few decades.

So not only impossible to do so but in fact regrettably pointless to even try to debate on such terms.
Still remaining overall a success too.

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

That is of no surprise whatsoever.
I merely chose to respond to show the in guarantees of what has been, is, and will continue to be we stay.

As usual I got no answers to assurances of the terms tariffs, conditions to be imposed once out, any success or lack of it or how without the EU we would now work through as quickly as possible any difficulties that may come our way in the future.

Disagreeing with someone is all well and good and your right to do so but without the actual dealing with factual answers,that is really all you do.
Disagree and offer nothing as to a successful and worthwhile alternative from where the UK is now and has been for the last few decades.

So not only impossible to do so but in fact regrettably pointless to even try to debate on such terms.
Still remaining overall a success too.

Forum rules state not to get personal. Please stick to the forum rules.
If you want to vote to stay in then by all means do so. That is your choice. But why post over and over again the same thing asking for guarantees when you already know the answer and your gonna vote to stay in regardless? Also come the 24th June the day after the vote and we stay IN who is to say that the EU will not come out with more demands for more money from the UK? Can YOU guarantee that the EU won't? No you can't. So banging on about wanting guarantees is all well and good but the reality is that there are NO guarantees whichever way it goes.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

Forum rules state not to get personal. Please stick to the forum rules.
If you want to vote to stay in then by all means do so. That is your choice. But why post over and over again the same thing asking for guarantees when you already know the answer and your gonna vote to stay in regardless? Also come the 24th June the day after the vote and we stay IN who is to say that the EU will not come out with more demands for more money from the UK? Can YOU guarantee that the EU won't? No you can't. So banging on about wanting guarantees is all well and good but the reality is that there are NO guarantees whichever way it goes.

By the same token why quote someone simply to express you disagree with no counter?

[arista]

Its all up in the Air.

We Need 2 hour Debates
On all these channels
BBC ,ITV , Sky, Ch5, Ch4