[Nicky91]

netherlands todays numbers

6,093 new cases (126 more than yesterday)

1902 in hospital now (compared to 1,961 yesterday)

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No one is trying to deflect the seriousness of it. I can appreciate that this is a highly emotional subject for many people, for many very good reasons... However, that's not really a debate or understanding of Covid-19 itself, rather a discussion about the individual and emotional impact of the pandemic.

Not that I'm against those discussions being had - but for me personally, that's not what I'm in this thread for, so I'm not going to enter into an emotive argument whilst trying to discuss the facts. I'll just steer away from commenting on the more emotive posts but I'm not going to promise that I'll stop correcting information that I think is flawed - specifically because I think too much emotionally charged anecdotal information is actually damaging to the emotional wellbeing of many people, and is worth tempering for that reason. I feel for everyone who has lost someone in this pandemic, but I don't find it a valid reason that they should be allowed to send other people off on panic-spirals unchecked.

So I'm not going to continue to argue about this, because it isn't sitting well with me.

However as a final thought, I do personally think the conversations should be separated. That's not my decision, though.

The thread is about Corona virus.

About all aspects of it, the effects of it and those who have been in the front line of experiences of it and effects of it.

It's NOT just to suit those who take statistics at their every word.

Just about all the past statistics on this have been wrong or altered.
Even to the time of frame of recording deaths from it.

It doesn't sit well with you hearing others devastating losses and all they've seen to be wrong in the whole process.

Well it doesn't sit well with me who has lost 4 from my life..
Apologies for daring to get uncomfortably emotive for some..

To just see the diminishing of who'll get it, who'll die from it from statistical information only.
Which has been shown to be flawed itself several times.

The experience of losing people to this virus, seeing the effects of long term covid on some who've survived, that's real factual experience which cannot be flawed as you seem to possibly indicate.

I make no apologies for any emotiveness I convey following the loss of loved ones from my life unnecessarily before their time.

If that doesn't sit comfortably with you, then sorry, with respect, that's your problem, not mine.

[Nicky91]

[Nicky91]

some data as to the 9 EU countries what is known so far who gets how much money, 14 Billion have been invested, keeping people in work during the pandemic, saving jobs

[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

The thread is about Corona virus.

About all aspects of it, the effects of it and those who have been in the front line of experiences of it and effects of it.

It's NOT just to suit those who take statistics at their every word.

Just about all the past statistics on this have been wrong or altered.
Even to the time of frame of recording deaths from it.

It doesn't sit well with you hearing others devastating losses and all they've seen to be wrong in the whole process.

Well it doesn't sit well with me who has lost 4 from my life..
Apologies for daring to get uncomfortably emotive for some..

To just see the diminishing of who'll get it, who'll die from it from statistical information only.
Which has been shown to be flawed itself several times.

The experience of losing people to this virus, seeing the effects of long term covid on some who've survived, that's real factual experience which cannot be flawed as you seem to possibly indicate.

I make no apologies for any emotiveness I convey following the loss of loved ones from my life unnecessarily before their time.

If that doesn't sit comfortably with you, then sorry, with respect, that's your problem, not mine.

Likewise Joey, your own personal experiences of the last year are not reason nor justification for attempting to shut other people down who have a different perspective and are following the science and evidence that you, subjectively, don't agree with - nor is it an excuse to be angry at those people, or expect them to stay quiet or say nothing in the face of that anger out of sympathy.

I do have empathy for you in having lost people to Covid. I haven't lost anyone in this last year but I am well aware of what loss is - you may say I'm lucky not to have lost anyone, I would counter that I don't consider only having one family member over 40 left (my dad) - and therefore not many people TO lose to Covid - particularly "lucky" and, thus, I am well aware of what loss is and how it feels.

So yes I'm sympathetic for your losses but they don't negate the observed science or the facts of Covid-19 as a virus, they don't justify lashing out at people for having a different opinion when otherwise unprovoked, and my sympathies are not enough for me to accept being shouted down in a debate thread for choosing to assess the world based on objectivity and facts wherever possible over and above subjective feelings and personal anecdotes.

I suspect you'll continue to be angry with me for this. I understand why. It's not enough for me to change track or stay quiet, sorry.

[user104658]

I should clarify that I don't mean I'm going to continue arguing over it and saying you're wrong - again I understand your stance on this. However your stance isn't going to stop me from posting from a more objective position based on the bigger picture, and when you respond to that with personal anger, I'm just going to have to accept but unfortunately ultimately skip past those posts.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No one is trying to deflect the seriousness of it. I can appreciate that this is a highly emotional subject for many people, for many very good reasons... However, that's not really a debate or understanding of Covid-19 itself, rather a discussion about the individual and emotional impact of the pandemic.

Not that I'm against those discussions being had - but for me personally, that's not what I'm in this thread for, so I'm not going to enter into an emotive argument whilst trying to discuss the facts. I'll just steer away from commenting on the more emotive posts but I'm not going to promise that I'll stop correcting information that I think is flawed - specifically because I think too much emotionally charged anecdotal information is actually damaging to the emotional wellbeing of many people, and is worth tempering for that reason. I feel for everyone who has lost someone in this pandemic, but I don't find it a valid reason that they should be allowed to send other people off on panic-spirals unchecked.

So I'm not going to continue to argue about this, because it isn't sitting well with me.

However as a final thought, I do personally think the conversations should be separated. That's not my decision, though.

Right. .. so there's no evidence for the opinion in my posts it's just emotive language or media hype?

Do you want me to find you some evidence? I really don't mind.

[arista]

19,875 today have tested for Covid-19

Patients in hospital
16,390

Patients on ventilation
1,421

Today 341 have died

54,326 Total UK deaths.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Right. .. so there's no evidence for the opinion in my posts it's just emotive language or media hype?



Do you want me to find you some evidence? I really don't mind.

I don't know what in my post gave you the impression I was talking to you, Kizzy.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Likewise Joey, your own personal experiences of the last year are not reason nor justification for attempting to shut other people down who have a different perspective and are following the science and evidence that you, subjectively, don't agree with - nor is it an excuse to be angry at those people, or expect them to stay quiet or say nothing in the face of that anger out of sympathy.

I do have empathy for you in having lost people to Covid. I haven't lost anyone in this last year but I am well aware of what loss is - you may say I'm lucky not to have lost anyone, I would counter that I don't consider only having one family member over 40 left (my dad) - and therefore not many people TO lose to Covid - particularly "lucky" and, thus, I am well aware of what loss is and how it feels.

So yes I'm sympathetic for your losses but they don't negate the observed science or the facts of Covid-19 as a virus, they don't justify lashing out at people for having a different opinion when otherwise unprovoked, and my sympathies are not enough for me to accept being shouted down in a debate thread for choosing to assess the world based on objectivity and facts wherever possible over and above subjective feelings and personal anecdotes.

I suspect you'll continue to be angry with me for this. I understand why. It's not enough for me to change track or stay quiet, sorry.

Likewise.
Also don't dare accuse me of shutting others down.
Just because I call their view out on this.

I have put my point my way from experience of this virus.
Not statistics,not diminishing of others sad experiences of it.

You continue with your statistics.

Yes though,likewise to you.
I'll stick with how I feel on this virus.

At least I can empathise without any need of statistics with people who've suffered with and because of this virus.

Good luck to you trusting in only statistics.
You'll need lots of luck for sure.

[user104658]

Like I said Joey, you're attacking and being rude, and my empathy doesn't extend to ignoring that. Your own upset is not an excuse for getting personal, in any circumstance.

[Crimson Dynamo]

as far as i am aware its science that created a vaccine

not anecdotal personal evidence..

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Like I said Joey, you're attacking and being rude, and my empathy doesn't extend to ignoring that. Your own upset is not an excuse for getting personal, in any circumstance.

I refute all those accusations from you 100%
Just for the record.

Think what you like.
I've got your message loud and clear.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Right. .. so there's no evidence for the opinion in my posts it's just emotive language or media hype?

Do you want me to find you some evidence? I really don't mind.

He's getting at me Kizzy.
Don't worry.

[MTVN]

Great to see cases and deaths way down today

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Great to see cases and deaths way down today

it is

[Kizzy]

This....so I'll just ask again.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Right. .. so there's no evidence for the opinion in my posts it's just emotive language or media hype?

Do you want me to find you some evidence? I really don't mind.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'll go with what's shown in the statistics and verified facts rather than theories in the press thankyou Kizzy, and I don't particularly feel the need to apologise for that. It is helpful to have a realistic perspective on who is most likely to be affected, so that we can prioritise shielding, treatment, and the order in which any vaccine should be delivered.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...783-0/fulltext

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4470

[Parmy]

Merry xmas everyone..I appreciate you all...keep thy Chinas oop..

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Like I said Joey, you're attacking and being rude, and my empathy doesn't extend to ignoring that. Your own upset is not an excuse for getting personal, in any circumstance.

Nobody is attacking you... what an unnecessarily emotive response. Joey is right ordinarily you have been sceptical of statistics not on this seemingly, which is odd.
What is rude is presuming you have some kind of logical gig round here, you don't, simply ignoring the opinions of others offhand as based on nothing is rude.

You've been challenged and you don't like it that's all.

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

as far as i am aware its science that created a vaccine

not anecdotal personal evidence..

Yet nature created the virus..?

I reckon its 1-1 now..

Can we just have a last minute winner please. Cause I dont fancy the extra time...ot the potential penalty shoot out either.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

simply ignoring the opinions of others offhand as based on nothing is rude.

Again, I'm not the one ignoring the thoughts and opinions of others on this thread, I'm replying to some quite specific things, whilst noting people being responded to with unwarranted/unprompted anger for "daring" to question hyperbolic anecdotal claims that have little bearing on the objective reality of the situation.

e.g;

"The virus is mostly dangerous to the elderly and deaths/serious side effects in the young are rare, the data on that is very clear."

"NO IT'S WRONG because I know someone young who had it worse than that and thus you are not taking Covid seriously enough/playing it down"

This is not an argument that has any place in an actual meaningful discussion of the situation. As I said, I'm sympathetic to people's individual circumstances but they don't have meaningful bearing on the overall data.

The phrase "damn lies and statistics" that Joey quoted points out that statistics CAN be manipulated when people have ulterior motives; I can think of multiple examples of the government doing this with Covid, but it's not happening on any sort of scale amongst epidemiologists and virologists, nor is there any reason it would be. It absolutely does NOT mean, nor was it ever intended to mean that individual experience is more meaningful or more likely to paint an accurate picture on a large scale than statistics.

Covid-19 is quite obviously serious and I haven't seen many examples at all of people on here trying to make out that it's "nothing" - this isn't a Trump rally - what I do see is people keeping a level head and assessing the situation based on the actually available information, and others saying "UMM NO, you should PANIC actually because[list of experiences]". To be blunt, that's not helpful for anyone and actively harmful to many. And it's often stated in anger. So it deserves to be challenged.

[arista]

[arista]

[arista]

[arista]