[calyman]

Originally Posted by StGeorge

Im sorry but that is not an exellent post due to the bit i have quoted.

People forget that the atrocities as you put it had already started long before Germany invaded Poland ( and subsequently our involvement), and things like kristallnacht, the anti-Jewish pogrom in Nazi Germany and Austria from the 9th until the 10th November 1938, were just a sign of Hitlers plan and indoctrines with regards his views on the Aryan Races and the inferior Jewish and Slav races.

It also has to be said that it was people of Ben's class who allowed the rise of the nazis to occur. After the Germans were beaten in the 1st world war. The Rhineland was controlled by the allies. They allowed Hitler to walk in, take the place back and then begin mass production of armaments. One of the few voices warning the British Government to do something about this was Churchill.

It was the inaction of the rulling classes in France and Britain that allowed Hitler to prepare for war. Right up to the early 30's, Hitler could have been easily defeated. The ruling classes in Britain, France and even Germany allowed Hitler to gain strength because they all thought he could be controlled by them. Big ****in mistake. So Ben and people of his class were partly responsible because of their narrow minded and short sighted views, which then brought the the whole of Europe to into appalling violence and genocide.

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yeah well, sometimes it saves time to let someone else have written it down what you were thinking. I've never done it myself of course. Never. Not ever. Not even once. Do you believe that?!?

I know..i usually post it in italics or as a quote, but pure expediancy got the better of me.

off home now tally ho!

[Livia]

Originally Posted by calyman

It also has to be said that it was people of Ben's class who allowed the rise of the nazis to occur. After the Germans were beaten in the 1st world war. The Rhineland was controlled by the allies. They allowed Hitler to walk in, take the place back and then begin mass production of armaments. One of the few voices warning the British Government to do something about this was Churchill.

It was the inaction of the rulling classes in France and Britain that allowed Hitler to prepare for war. Right up to the early 30's, Hitler could have been easily defeated. The ruling classes in Britain, France and even Germany allowed Hitler to gain strength because they all thought he could be controlled by them. Big ****in mistake. So Ben and people of his class were partly responsible because of their narrow minded and short sighted views, which then brought the the whole of Europe to into appalling violence and genocide.

There was a HUGE depression before WW2. Did you hear about that? The whole of the world suffered. The reason Hitler came to power was that he promised the Germans, who were starving, he would put food on their table. They worked, they built autobahns, he fed their children. Hearts and minds. Thats how he rose to power so astonishingly quickly. The mass production of arms didn't occur until quite a while after Hitler was in power.

To say that the upper Class British gave Hitler power is ill-informed and really classist. It wasn't just the working class that died in WW2, people from all classes died.

[setanta]

No need for a history lesson: we've already established that Ben made a legimate statement that's supported by facts, so let's leave it at that, shall we? No need to start a pi$$ing competition here. Instead, we should concentrate on the title of this thread, which is misleading rubbish.

[oddballmisfitsFTW]

Originally Posted by calyman

It also has to be said that it was people of Ben's class who allowed the rise of the nazis to occur. After the Germans were beaten in the 1st world war. The Rhineland was controlled by the allies. They allowed Hitler to walk in, take the place back and then begin mass production of armaments. One of the few voices warning the British Government to do something about this was Churchill.

It was the inaction of the rulling classes in France and Britain that allowed Hitler to prepare for war. Right up to the early 30's, Hitler could have been easily defeated. The ruling classes in Britain, France and even Germany allowed Hitler to gain strength because they all thought he could be controlled by them. Big ****in mistake. So Ben and people of his class were partly responsible because of their narrow minded and short sighted views, which then brought the the whole of Europe to into appalling violence and genocide.

The part in bold is interesting. I dont trust the ruling classes of Europe at all. In the part i highlighted in Italics you say they allowed Hitler to gain strength cos they thought they could control him and big effin mistake. But what if they had no intention of stopping him and it wasnt a mistake. What if they actually wanted it to happen?
And the same ruling classes are the real reason we went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan too?

[johnx]

It's clear that the main motivation for any war is that large corporations make alot of money out of them.Lets not forget Britian,like Nazi Germany, invaded many countries when building a vast empire.Former US General Butler wrote a book "War is a Racket" comparing the US Govt. he fought for to organized crime families.Likewise books such as "Trading With the Enemy" by Charles Highman document how large Corporations such as Standard Oil,Ford and General Electric continued trading with Germany and her allies into 1942.The econonies of US and Great Britian were in the toilet in the 1930s-WW2 helped the US become the superpower it is.Ben is right to highlight the complexities of WW2 but as he says himself he's arguing with people who've never read a book.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by StGeorge

Its unfortunate that we will never know. Same as we will never know whether Saddam was intending to build bridges with the world and then become the next Nobel Peace winner. Who knows?

I think the politics of the time were very different to today as armourment mobilization and military means were the predominant policy of most of the nations at the time. But i cant believe that there wasnt at least some negotiations and diplomacy via all those mentioned before who were sympathetic to Hitler like the Prince of Wales etc.

That is the beauty of revisionism - the "what might have been" if such and such course had been pursued. We can all be wise after the event. But it's still fascinating to debate.

To paraphrase Burke "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing", which is basically what the British government did in the 1930s.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by johnx

It's clear that the main motivation for any war is that large corporations make alot of money out of them.Lets not forget Britian,like Nazi Germany, invaded many countries when building a vast empire.Former US General Butler wrote a book "War is a Racket" comparing the US Govt. he fought for to organized crime families.Likewise books such as "Trading With the Enemy" by Charles Highman document how large Corporations such as Standard Oil,Ford and General Electric continued trading with Germany and her allies into 1942.The econonies of US and Great Britian were in the toilet in the 1930s-WW2 helped the US become the superpower it is.Ben is right to highlight the complexities of WW2 but as he says himself he's arguing with people who've never read a book.

Good post and yeah, that's more than likely true.

[oddballmisfitsFTW]

Originally Posted by Livia

There was a HUGE depression before WW2. Did you hear about that? The whole of the world suffered. The reason Hitler came to power was that he promised the Germans, who were starving, he would put food on their table. They worked, they built autobahns, he fed their children. Hearts and minds. Thats how he rose to power so astonishingly quickly. The mass production of arms didn't occur until quite a while after Hitler was in power.

To say that the upper Class British gave Hitler power is ill-informed and really classist. It wasn't just the working class that died in WW2, people from all classes died.

There was the great depression and there is the "economic crisis" that happened recently. I have a very bad feeling something seriously ****ed up is gonna happen within next few years. I dont trust the ruling classes who own the politicians.
I am very paranoid about it. I do think there is something behind WWII and the depression is connected to it and the economin crisis of recent times is connected to the Iraq, Afghanistan and any future wars we may have (eg Iran).
And, WWII and modern wars are connected in some way, I think
Knee jerk reaction I even say to myself is paranoid etc, but they got found out to be blatantly lying about Iraq and Afghanistan, so what else are they lying about. Seems very dodgy to me, very sinsister and doesnt sit right with me at all
Economic crisis was caused by the banks themselves, no question in my mind. They are greedy and stealing the publics money from under their noses under the guise of "oooh we have a crisis, we need help"
NO they are lying just like Iraq and Afghanistan.

[oddballmisfitsFTW]

Originally Posted by johnx

It's clear that the main motivation for any war is that large corporations make alot of money out of them.Lets not forget Britian,like Nazi Germany, invaded many countries when building a vast empire.Former US General Butler wrote a book "War is a Racket" comparing the US Govt. he fought for to organized crime families.Likewise books such as "Trading With the Enemy" by Charles Highman document how large Corporations such as Standard Oil,Ford and General Electric continued trading with Germany and her allies into 1942.The econonies of US and Great Britian were in the toilet in the 1930s-WW2 helped the US become the superpower it is.Ben is right to highlight the complexities of WW2 but as he says himself he's arguing with people who've never read a book.

classic ben

Ben to win (as long as he isnt a nazi lover)

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by Livia

There was a HUGE depression before WW2. Did you hear about that? The whole of the world suffered. The reason Hitler came to power was that he promised the Germans, who were starving, he would put food on their table. They worked, they built autobahns, he fed their children. Hearts and minds. Thats how he rose to power so astonishingly quickly. The mass production of arms didn't occur until quite a while after Hitler was in power.

To say that the upper Class British gave Hitler power is ill-informed and really classist. It wasn't just the working class that died in WW2, people from all classes died.

Its true that Hitler fed off the impoverished to gain power.

A similar thing is what is happening in this country now. I personally do not agree with our open door policy regarding immigration under Labour. But some quarters, use this to stir up those who are out of work or generally feeling down and depressed due to the economy etc, and they try to gain acceptance by misguided policies and playing on peoples fears and worries. The BNP in particular springs to mind.

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by angus58

That is the beauty of revisionism - the "what might have been" if such and such course had been pursued. We can all be wise after the event. But it's still fascinating to debate.

To paraphrase Burke "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing", which is basically what the British government did in the 1930s.

I love that saying, and its a shame that when good men do actually do something, their motives are questioned and they are called criminals because they havent got the appropriate United Nations resolution bla bla bla.

[Kazanne]

Well at least Benny boy got a good debate going on here

[Angus]

Originally Posted by kazanne

Well at least Benny boy got a good debate going on here

It's a shame he couldn't do the same in the house instead of being shouted down by idiots who really don't have sufficient grasp of the facts to conduct a meaningful debate.

Poor Ben is flogging a dead horse in there if he's hoping for any intellectual stimulation - I often feel he deliberately plays the devil's advocate in order to stimulate conversation and opinions, but you can't really discuss any meaningful issues with people who have such small and closed minds.

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by oddballmisfitsFTW

There was the great depression and there is the "economic crisis" that happened recently. I have a very bad feeling something seriously ****ed up is gonna happen within next few years. I dont trust the ruling classes who own the politicians.
I am very paranoid about it. I do think there is something behind WWII and the depression is connected to it and the economin crisis of recent times is connected to the Iraq, Afghanistan and any future wars we may have (eg Iran).
And, WWII and modern wars are connected in some way, I think
Knee jerk reaction I even say to myself is paranoid etc, but they got found out to be blatantly lying about Iraq and Afghanistan, so what else are they lying about. Seems very dodgy to me, very sinsister and doesnt sit right with me at all
Economic crisis was caused by the banks themselves, no question in my mind. They are greedy and stealing the publics money from under their noses under the guise of "oooh we have a crisis, we need help"
NO they are lying just like Iraq and Afghanistan.

I dont know the complete ins and outs of the reasoning behind Iraq and Afghan' but if in Iraq in particular we went knowing there were no WOMDs, then those in power at the time should be questioned accordingly.
IMO we were wrong not to have finished the job in the freeing of Kuwait. We gave Saddam the benefit of the doubt and a second chance and he preceded to annialate the Kurds & Shiites and push the boundaries until the Allies kicked him out. I personally beleive we have been justified in removing an Hitlerite tyrant irrespective of WOMDs or not.
Afghan? I think we are again justified to enter a country and remove those responsible for one of the worsed terrorist acts against a civilian population in modern times. What narks me is that the USA intelligence network(there's an anomaly if ever there was one) had a perfect opportunity prior to 911 to remove Ossie Bin Liner and bulked. It resulted in the murder of a prominent Afghan leader who was working with the west. Shameful period.
I agree with the Afghan war but know that its one we wont win unless we win the people, which we arent doing in certain areas. This type of war has failed in Vietnam and even as close as N.Ireland, where armed conflict against an enemy you cant identify hinders your chances of success. Fortunately both those conflicts ended once both sides came to the table and talked. But with the indoctrines that the Bin Liner Fundamentalists follow, talking is never ever going to be an option.

[oddballmisfitsFTW]

Originally Posted by angus58

It's a shame he couldn't do the same in the house instead of being shouted down by idiots who really don't have sufficient grasp of the facts to conduct a meaningful debate.

Poor Ben is flogging a dead horse in there if he's hoping for any intellectual stimulation - I often feel he deliberately plays the devil's advocate in order to stimulate conversation and opinions, but you can't really discuss any meaningful issues with people who have such small and closed minds.

what is also a shame is that Ben may lose a lot of fans if this gets shown on HLs, if they misunderstand him or BB edit him badly.
I need to see it myself first as well, but I dont think Ben is a nazi supporter or sympathiser judging from what people have said so far.
I always thought Ben was unable to be brought down, because his lazy attitude to tasks and all other stuff negative, was part of what made him such a comedy legend.
This however IS a "downfall" moment, pardon the pun

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by angus58

It's a shame he couldn't do the same in the house instead of being shouted down by idiots who really don't have sufficient grasp of the facts to conduct a meaningful debate.

Poor Ben is flogging a dead horse in there if he's hoping for any intellectual stimulation - I often feel he deliberately plays the devil's advocate in order to stimulate conversation and opinions, but you can't really discuss any meaningful issues with people who have such small and closed minds.

Unfortunately those of us who havent been party to the whole conversation, probably will not ever see it to judge for ourselves. If you look at C4s BB site, there is no mention of it yet in the news section.
Censorship is the tool of dictators methinks.

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by oddballmisfitsFTW

what is also a shame is that Ben may lose a lot of fans if this gets shown on HLs, if they misunderstand him or BB edit him badly.
I need to see it myself first as well, but I dont think Ben is a nazi supporter or sympathiser judging from what people have said so far.
I always thought Ben was unable to be brought down, because his lazy attitude to tasks and all other stuff negative, was part of what made him such a comedy legend.
This however IS a "downfall" moment, pardon the pun

I hope that is not the case and we do get to judge ourselves as its not fair on Ben either way as they have shown LF and thus judgements are made regardless.
I dont think he has sounded like a nazi sympathiser so far, but i dont agree about his views on the politics or policies of the time, based on whats has been revealed.
We in 2010 cannot truly judge those in 1939, no more than i could question Caesars decision in entering the Roman Senate without his bodyguard Mark Antony. Who's to know whether MA was taking a leak at the time? In Diplomacy..timing is crucial.

[Ketman]

Originally Posted by oddballmisfitsFTW

And, WWII and modern wars are connected in some way, I think
Knee jerk reaction I even say to myself is paranoid etc, but they got found out to be blatantly lying about Iraq and Afghanistan, so what else are they lying about. Seems very dodgy to me, very sinsister and doesnt sit right with me at all

No need to suppose a grand conspiracy that includes all wars ever fought. The war against Iraq was an opportunist war for the US and there is very little that can be said in defence of Bush-Blair. WWII is a different case, however. Fighting that war impoverished Britain for a generation. There were no material gains of any kind for us. The only motives in 1939 were those of sheer survival - fight and win, or go under. They should have acted earlier, and Churchill wanted them to, but he was out of the loop in those years. Instead they let the armed forces go to pot while the Nazis were building theirs up, and this had the effect of leading the Nazis to believe that they could act as they liked in Europe, and Britain would just let them. That was a mistake, but we have to take some blame for allowing them to make it. But, overall, it was one of the few wars in our history where we can be proud of our role.

[-Sue-]

**passes round the popcorn**..hmm should I sneak out quietly or sit on the bean bag in the corner flicking elastic bands at unsuspecting passers by??? hmmm

[Angus]

Originally Posted by StGeorge

Unfortunately those of us who havent been party to the whole conversation, probably will not ever see it to judge for ourselves. If you look at C4s BB site, there is no mention of it yet in the news section.
Censorship is the tool of dictators methinks.

Judging by the glee displayed on this forum by many of Ben's haters, it will be just another stick to beat him with, despite the fact that most of them seem to have a very shaky grip on what exactly was said and in what context. I'm sure C4 will be more than capable of manipulating public opinion by the use of careful editing and censorship, as they did with Sunshine last week.

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by angus58

Judging by the glee displayed on this forum by many of Ben's haters, it will be just another stick to beat him with, despite the fact that most of them seem to have a very shaky grip on what exactly was said and in what context. I'm sure C4 will be more than capable of manipulating public opinion by the use of careful editing and censorship, as they did with Sunshine last week.

Im neither a fan or hater of Ben, but i do think that in some cases when certain subjects are broached on BB, that it could lead to a distortion of the facts and events. This is why i have posted here as i feel WW2 was justified and the timing was unavoidable.
Someone says Ben is Jewish....i dont know, but there are some who actually would still take his views and turn it. Im amazed that with all the photographic evidence out there, some still disbeleive the Holocust.

[oddballmisfitsFTW]

Originally Posted by StGeorge

I dont know the complete ins and outs of the reasoning behind Iraq and Afghan' but if in Iraq in particular we went knowing there were no WOMDs, then those in power at the time should be questioned accordingly.
IMO we were wrong not to have finished the job in the freeing of Kuwait. We gave Saddam the benefit of the doubt and a second chance and he preceded to annialate the Kurds & Shiites and push the boundaries until the Allies kicked him out. I personally beleive we have been justified in removing an Hitlerite tyrant irrespective of WOMDs or not.
Afghan? I think we are again justified to enter a country and remove those responsible for one of the worsed terrorist acts against a civilian population in modern times. What narks me is that the USA intelligence network(there's an anomaly if ever there was one) had a perfect opportunity prior to 911 to remove Ossie Bin Liner and bulked. It resulted in the murder of a prominent Afghan leader who was working with the west. Shameful period.
I agree with the Afghan war but know that its one we wont win unless we win the people, which we arent doing in certain areas. This type of war has failed in Vietnam and even as close as N.Ireland, where armed conflict against an enemy you cant identify hinders your chances of success. Fortunately both those conflicts ended once both sides came to the table and talked. But with the indoctrines that the Bin Liner Fundamentalists follow, talking is never ever going to be an option.

I dont know whole truth about Iraq/Afghanistan either but I lean more towards Afghanistan was more justifiable than Iraq, IF what the US/UK government tells us is true.
Problem is I dont trust a single word they say at all.
I do know that both Bin Laden and Saddam were formerly "allies" with the west. Both times it was the CIA who were involved. These sneaky guys are always around at the start of trouble are they not?
Who was involved at start of Vietnam, CIA again.
Something is not right and the governments of the west I think are treating us like gullible idiots.
I just wanna know what they are upto, what is the reason they causin so much **** around the world. Is it simply due to fundamentalists wanting to bring down the west? I dont believe that is the reason, because my philosophy now is, whatever the politicians tell you, thats a lie and the truth is hidden somewhere. They tell us over and over and over war on terror war on terror.
What could be true is that the west wants to control the middle east and Saddam and Taleban needed to be removed for them to do this. Next they might move onto Iran, which cause WWIII, if Iran have nuclear weapons.
Maybe thats what the sick, twisted ruling classes want though.

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by oddballmisfitsFTW

I dont know whole truth about Iraq/Afghanistan either but I lean more towards Afghanistan was more justifiable than Iraq, IF what the US/UK government tells us is true.
Problem is I dont trust a single word they say at all.
I do know that both Bin Laden and Saddam were formerly "allies" with the west. Both times it was the CIA who were involved. These sneaky guys are always around at the start of trouble are they not?
Who was involved at start of Vietnam, CIA again.
Something is not right and the governments of the west I think are treating us like gullible idiots.
I just wanna know what they are upto, what is the reason they causin so much **** around the world. Is it simply due to fundamentalists wanting to bring down the west? I dont believe that is the reason, because my philosophy now is, whatever the politicians tell you, thats a lie and the truth is hidden somewhere. They tell us over and over and over war on terror war on terror.
What could be true is that the west wants to control the middle east and Saddam and Taleban needed to be removed for them to do this. Next they might move onto Iran, which cause WWIII, if Iran have nuclear weapons.
Maybe thats what the sick, twisted ruling classes want though.

Unfortunately there probably isnt much wrong with what you say. And thats worrying.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by oddballmisfitsFTW

what is also a shame is that Ben may lose a lot of fans if this gets shown on HLs, if they misunderstand him or BB edit him badly.
I need to see it myself first as well, but I dont think Ben is a nazi supporter or sympathiser judging from what people have said so far.
I always thought Ben was unable to be brought down, because his lazy attitude to tasks and all other stuff negative, was part of what made him such a comedy legend.
This however IS a "downfall" moment, pardon the pun

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Ben gets loads of nominations next week, but it will be because he is not a "team player". If people like Steve and Nathan (if he's still here next week) nominate him they might well cite this conversation just as Dave was nommed loads because he had said he didn't want to compromise his faith by marrying gay people. The HMs will latch on to anything they think will fly with the public to get them onside, and put themselves in a good light.