[Z]

Originally Posted by arista

"Liberal Democrats who did a complete U-Turn on one of their manifesto promises; and considering that many students voted for the Lib Dems"


ZEE
you are wrong that manifesto is not in Power
a New Joint Manifesto is Conservative -Lib Dem Joint Policy is.


So anything Promised before they came into joint power - Of Course is not valid
They are in Joint Power.


Stop being silly.

Yes, but the Liberal Democrats' manifesto's promises to students was the reason why so many students voted for them - which is why they're now facing such backlash for going against that original promise. They may have thrown their old manifesto out of the window because of the coalition, but nobody voted for a coalition - I am not being silly, I'm pointing out exactly why these riots are happening and why dissatisfaction/hatred/anger is being expressed towards the Liberal Democrats.

[arista]

"many students voted for them"

Tough Luck.
It has been like that Forever.
There Original Ideas were stopped
Then a New Joint Manifesto was made Conservative-Lib Dem is the Law now



They should have voted Stinking Dead New Labour.
You Roll Your Dice.


In any case Not enough Students Voted - in the First place

[arista]

All these Kids going on the Next Strike
does not have Public backing,
It is Not going to change.

Students are now being Hated.



The Nutter in charge of Next Weeks Strike of Students
is Deluded
he wants this to be like the Poll Tax anger,
Well it Freaking Ain't

[Z]

Originally Posted by arista

"many students voted for them"

Tough Luck.
It has been like that Forever.
There Original Ideas were stopped
Then a New Joint Manifesto was made Conservative-Lib Dem is the Law now



They should have voted Stinking Dead New Labour.
You Roll Your Dice.


In any case Not enough Students Voted - in the First place

Tough luck perhaps, but saying tough luck isn't going to make angry protesters go away any time soon. Well, I voted in the general election, at least my vote counted for something.

[arista]

"Tough luck perhaps, but saying tough luck isn't going to make angry protesters go away any time soon. "


Well so long as the do not block me
going to AsdaWalmart
or Aldi ,
all will be OK.


Life In The City.

[Z]

Originally Posted by arista

"Tough luck perhaps, but saying tough luck isn't going to make angry protesters go away any time soon. "


Well so long as the do not block me
going to AsdaWalmart
or Aldi ,
all will be OK.


Life In The City.

[arista]

Well Good to see you Laugh
on this Grim thread.


Keep On Keeping On
Zee

[Angus]

Originally Posted by arista

Zee that Evil Attack from a Roof on the Last Time Protest
was tracked as a Full Time Student
Fact.



Edward Woollard leaving Westminster Magistrates' Court today. He has admitted a charge of violent disorder after throwing a fire extinguisher from the roof of Millbank tower during the student protest

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz16E9ozWps

Some of the worst offenders are from affluent homes. Now this stupid idiot has a criminal record, that's really going to help him in the job market!

[Ammi]

I havn't posted on this topic before because I really don't know what to say tbh, I find it so upsetting to see this violence, destruction and hatred from the students. How is this helping? this is a situation we are all in and the future is bleak enough without having this. What must the rest of the world think of us. There is not one person in this country that is not going to suffer in the coming years and some will worry about even putting food on their table. There was a student on Daybreak today and he used the expression 'an injury to one is an injury to all' in that he was speaking for the general public and he said he allied himself to the pensioners and their lack of funding. I didn't see any students protest for pensioners or child benefit cuts or anything for that matter that effects the taxpayers or any citizens in this country. And yet when it effects them, even though they are not tax payers they're rioting in the streets. Costing us even more money for extra policing and to repair damage done. They are not helping they are just costing us more. These are people we assume use 'brain' over 'brawn' - and yet they cannot find another way, a non violent way - a civilised way. Is this the way they solve problems. Is this the product of their University education-somethings gone wrong somewhere then

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Zee

How condescending. Firstly, the protests are in part an angry reaction be being deceived by the Liberal Democrats who did a complete U-Turn on one of their manifesto promises; and considering that many students voted for the Lib Dems based on that promise, they've alienated their student support. Nobody is claiming that students are the only demographic of this country that are suffering; on the contrary the issue at hand is that these proposed changes are going to cause students to suffer more than they currently do - hence the riots. Your attitude towards students comes across as completely stereotypical and filled with hatred; so I'd like to explain my own situation in the hope that you'll stop and think for a minute that we're not all scrounging off the government and deserve to be penalised heavily for wanting to pursue academia.

I do not have a student loan and I have a part time job. I am a Scottish student, so my tuition fees are paid for by the government so long as I apply for them to be paid for before the academic year begins. That is the only aspect of my education that is paid for by somebody other than myself/my family; as a knock on effect of English universities raising their fees, many English school leavers hoping to go on to university will look to going places further afield: Scotland's significantly cheaper fees will attract lots more English students; making competition for places more difficult and disappointing students whose grades aren't good enough. What comes across in your post to me is that you're rolling your eyes at the idea of further education and think it's a waste of time - that's your opinion, but the fact remains that thousands of people of all different ages and backgrounds go to university to study each year and need some kind of financial support. Do your views apply to a single mother who is struggling to find employment so has gone to university as a mature student to get a good degree to aid her attempts to find a job? That's just an example of one type of person who isn't the 'typical student' that you seem to loathe.

There is no guarantee that someone who studies for a degree will get a well paid job - the job market is extremely competitive, a degree is no guarantee of employment. Being massively in debt (due to these proposed increases) and being unable to get a job because your CV still doesn't stand out from the crowd despite earning a degree, does that sound like an attractive prospect to you? In fact, it's a similar position to "the rest of us" who "have to struggle to survive in the real world" that you talked about in your post. We're all financially setback; if anything you're being prejudiced against students because of some preconceived stereotype that all students are lazy and just sit around getting drunk and doing nothing with their lives and then being handed a fantastic job - that's not the real world and I would have thought you of all people would know that, you're an intelligent poster!

I do agree with you about the rioting though - I firmly believe that the people causing trouble were, for the most part, hooligans who were there to cause trouble, and not students who were there to support the protest. Scenes like those captured in the media are just ridiculous displays of anti social behaviour and, you're spot on, do absolutely nothing to change anyone's mind about anything; instead it will only set people firmly against students. I really hope you read my post and at least concede that we're not all scroungers and wasters, some of us are here to learn and achieve something without being a burden on others.

I do not see how I have been at all condescending I have expressed a legitimate opinion about the standard of students who go to Uni these days, only a minority of whom actually achieve a worthwhile degree that is going to supposedly enrich our society in the future.

I would point out that it was the CONSERVATIVES won the last election NOT the LIB-DEMS, and the coalition is merely a marriage of convenience. Personally, I would have preferred the Conservatives to form a government without hindrance from a wishy washy party like the Lib-Dems (just Labour in a different form). It was the hypocritical LABOUR party that introduced fees in the first place, and used their 13 years in power to mortgage this country for the next couple of generations at least, so put the blame where it deserves to be.

Students are like a bunch of spoilt brats throwing their toys out of the pram because they can't get what they want. How about all the poor sods who have been made redundant or are subjected to wage freezes and are struggling to bring up families in this recession? What would happen if we all went on the rampage? What exactly would it achieve?

Going to University is a lifestyle choice and students should not expect others to fund it. They have already had free education up to the age of 19 which, sad to say, evidenced by some of the posts on this forum, has had little impact on some members' grammatical, spelling,mathematical and logic skills. As to stereotyping students, I haven't done that, they've managed it all by themselves by their appalling and unreasonable behaviour. There is also a degree of arrogance on their part since they believe themselves to be more deserving of funding than other members of society who are struggling to cope in this recession. Well they are not.

I had to leave school at 16 because I had to help to contribute to my family's finances, but I joined the Open University later on in life and achieved two degrees, a BA(Hons) and a BSc(Hons) as well as several diplomas, whilst being a single parent, bringing up two children and WORKING FULL TIME. I did NOT expect anyone else to pick up the tab because I had CHOSEN further study. I have no problem with further education, but why expect someone else to pay for it?

I note that a lot of your concern is about the fact that English students might start looking to go to Scottish universities, thereby reducing the number of places available to Scottish students! Welcome to our world here south of the border where the world and his wife clamour for scarce resources on every front: housing, schools, doctors, dentists, jobs etc etc. That's life, and students would do well to keep in mind what they are supposed to be preparing themselves for.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"Liberal Democrats who did a complete U-Turn on one of their manifesto promises; and considering that many students voted for the Lib Dems"


ZEE
you are wrong that manifesto is not in Power
a New Joint Manifesto is Conservative -Lib Dem Joint Policy is.


So anything Promised before they came into joint power - Of Course is not valid
They are in Joint Power.


Stop being silly.

With full and total respect to you and to your opinions but this is simply not the case in reality.
The election campaign was clearly fought with the knowledge that likely a hung parliament would result and no party would get an overall majority.

All through the campaign, knowing full well the Lib Dems could never win outright, the Lib Dems begged for voters to back them,to not give absolute power to either of the other parties and they promised 3 things that they said they would not support in parliament.

People voted for them on those promises,
1, to oppose any cuts being made this year
2,to oppose any increase in VAT.
3, to oppose any increase at all on tuition fees.

They knew they could never win outright the election so those things should have been immovable as to joining any kind of support, either on a supply and vote basis in parliament or full coalition.

No party won the election, so the Conservatives too have no full mandate to steamroller ahead either. but the Lib Dems promised they would not support any increase in fees, they said that right to polling day and to every audience they addressed.

Once they got the votes, they then used the seats given to them to join a coalition as the best form of stable govt, but that should not have negated their cast iron promises, as the expected minority party anyway of the main 3 parties, that they made to the voters to get their votes.


That is why anger is so rife with Students,also all Students are not lazy and do nothing, many do great works as I have said both where they are at Uni and in their own home areas too but the Lib Dems really deceived all the voters because never once did they say in interviews, all through the election campaign, as to possible deals or coalitions even, that they may have to drop those policies that they promised they would not support and also gave signed pledges to.

Joining a coalition, should not have allowed them to break those promises and also the trust those voters put in them.

I don't believe in rioting, as a Student I doubt the marches and demonstrations will be listened to either really, but there is a right to protest in the UK, however,my way will be to now help unseat any Lib Dem MP or Councillor at the ballot box,never again will I believe a word they say for as long as Nick Clegg leads them.

He called it the election where the voters had to be able to see they could trust politicians to deliver their promises,then for a Ministerial title and some Cabinet places he soon went back on those words too.

I apologise for the length of this post, but please don't categorise all students as good for nothing layabouts, there are likely just as many of them over all sections of society.

[arista]

"The election campaign was clearly fought with the knowledge that likely a hung parliament would result and no party would get an overall majority."


At the Time before that Election more thought the Conservatives would Storm in.
So No it was not Clear.

The Only thing that was clear was Millions of New Labour Voters did
Dump New Labour into a Grave Yard.



And Not enough voted LibDem
More voted for the other 2.


I can see Great Students in the Demo like Zoe Williams
but the Thug Students and even Thug Kids
are taking over the London Demo's.

If you have no control over your members
then you get this Utter Mess.
Demos like this,
at this time
change nothing.


Nick Clegg is in a Joint Power
all you students saying he went back on his word,
Welcome to the Real World


Get on with Education
Get on with Work.


Infact
Get Down And Funky
But Watch Out For Them Junkies.




Feel The Force.

[joeysteele]

Not at all the case, I hate to disagree with you but during the entire election campaign,there was never a lead in any polls that would have given any party any kind of overall majority, a hung parliament was discussed more than in any other election.

It was the first election I was able to vote in, I watched it carefully, never once was an overall majority predicted and when Nick Clegg was interviewed in the last 2 weeks of the campaign,he acknowledged that whoever got the most seats and votes would be the party he and the Lib Dems would talk to first as to how to have stable govt.
Clegg also said he could see no way of working with Gordon Brown.(one of the better things he said,if even that was true though).

However, don't take my word for that, watch a re-run of the entire election campaign and you will not find any time where there was a clear overall majority expected in the whole campaign expected for one party,

They even kept looking back at an election in 1974,which I believe was the last time a hung parliament happened, so convinced were all the reporters, analysts and pollsters that this was a hot favourite to be a hung parliament.

The point I make is that Nick Clegg 'never' once, either talking about majority govt, minority govt or coalition govt, said in the whole campaign that his promises of not supporting cuts this year, of not supporting an increase in VAT, of not supporting an increase in tuition fees would be dropped in 'any' of those possibilities of a govt.

If a re-run of the whole campaign was shown again, we would see and hear that not once was there talk of a comfortable overall majority govt, all the talk was of a hung parliament for the first time in over 30 years. Not from the start did any poll say any one party was likely to get an overall majority.

That so, the Lib Dems then betrayed totally the trust of the voters they made promises and signed pledges to, despite those expectations of the election result.
He never said once, if we,the Lib Dems don't win outright, that he would abandon those promises,of course in the election campaign he hadn't yet got the votes and seats.

[arista]

"Lib Dems then betrayed totally the trust of the voters"


Sure to Some - they are not happy.


At the next Election
LibDem could also be put into the grave yard and join Dead New Labour


But at this time they are in a Joint Power.


The One Great thing David and Nick brought in
is the 5 year term.
That makes sense.


Nothing anyone says or does will stop
all these changes.

You Student Protesters are being led by a Union Fool.

[arista]

[joeysteele]

You and I will just have to likely agree to disagree on this one,sadly.
However, If I made a promise to someone then absolutely nothing would have me break that promise to them without getting their permission to do so first.

I don't see why those who aspire to lead a Country should be able to break firm guranteed promises either.
However we are going round in circles. I know what I saw and heard in the whole election campaign and it is the total opposite of what I am hearing from the Lib Dems now.

Also though in just 6 months they have lost at least near 10% from their poll rating since their change of policy while both the Conservative and Labour poll ratings are up on the election figures so clearly many in the Country feel equally betrayed by the Lib Dems.

I wish you well Arista but its clear we will have to agree to disagree,all the best to you.

[MTVN]

What do you suggest though joey? Sure, the Lib Dems have gone back on their pledge but I think we all knew that was inevitable when the coalition was formed. It was a marriage of convenience, of practicality, and there would always have to be significant compromises considering the differences in idealogy

Lib Dem voters may not like it but at the end of they day we were left with 3 options following the election, either:
We have a Tory minority government, and be left without a strong government when we were in such need of one
A Lib-Lab minority government which would leave us with the same problem, and also an unelected Prime Minister
The Con-Lib coalition, giving the country the Prime Minister they wanted more than any other, and a strong majaority government

Neither of those were good choices, noone wants a hung parliament, but the Con-Lib coalition was the best option in my opinion. The Lid Dem voters may be unhappy but the reality is that if they weren't in government they'd be sitting there with their 50-odd seats, and have very little say in matters. So while the students may be unhappy, they should face up to the reality of the situation if you ask me

[arista]

"I know what I saw and heard
in the whole election campaign and it is the total
opposite of what I am hearing from the Lib Dems "


Thats because at this time
they are not in Full power to do any Pledges,
they are in Joint power with the bigger Conservatives.
So they can do changes - but only what David says so.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by MTVN

What do you suggest though joey? Sure, the Lib Dems have gone back on their pledge but I think we all knew that was inevitable when the coalition was formed. It was a marriage of convenience, of practicality, and there would always have to be significant compromises considering the differences in idealogy

Lib Dem voters may not like it but at the end of they day we were left with 3 options following the election, either:
We have a Tory minority government, and be left without a strong government when we were in such need of one
A Lib-Lab minority government which would leave us with the same problem, and also an unelected Prime Minister
The Con-Lib coalition, giving the country the Prime Minister they wanted more than any other, and a strong majaority government

Neither of those were good choices, noone wants a hung parliament, but the Con-Lib coalition was the best option in my opinion. The Lid Dem voters may be unhappy but the reality is that if they weren't in government they'd be sitting there with their 50-odd seats, and have very little say in matters. So while the students may be unhappy, they should face up to the reality of the situation if you ask me

Well, I would first of all hope that you would at least half agree that all through the election campaign there was little expectancy of any party winning an outright majority and also that a hung parliament was the likely outcome, no one surely seriously believed the Lib Dems were ever going to win outright themselves.
So the Lib Dems made their firm promises in light of that fact too.

The rise in tuition fees doesn't really hurt me much,it will some people I know though and also many others in the future.

I was a voter,the parties suggested to me what they would do, I listened,I decided to give my vote to the party I, at that time, trusted most on most things not just tuition fees,from what they promised they would do.

Personally,I think the Lib Dems were foolish to make such binding promises to the electorate and Students in particular.
Labour made a massive mess of things but if even they could devise a policy whereby these fees did not need to increase, then I am sure as a compromise and there are always compromises that can be made,that the Conservatives could have agreed to some too.

I do think, as to cuts and the rise in VAT, that without the Lib Dems the VAT rise may have been greater and that also they may have tempered the overall spending cuts too.
I didn't choose the LibDem policy on fees though, they did and promised, a cast iron promise, that they would always oppose an increase in tuition fees.

I agree with you absolutely that Labour had to be out, I was also pleased at the formation of the coalition at first,but to me a promise is a promise.

Having said that I agree compromises had to be made,you are right that the coalition has to take the big picture and not just a snapshot of what needs to be done.
As I said, and you too MTVN may never agree with me either,the promises once made should not be dropped without referral back to the people who trusted their votes to a party on that basis.
I believed the Lib Dems wanted to clean up politics not smear it more.

If we can persuade the Lib Dems or even just enough of them not to support these measures, then Students feel they have to try to do so.
If we fail,we fail but at least will have tried, not that we will get anywhere with silly brainless fighting or damage to vehicles, buildings etc; That of course is unacceptable and rediculous.

I know to you and others, I am speaking from a selfish platform it seems.
I am aware that there is a mess to sort out and I applaud many of the Con-Lib decisions already made.

I was brought up though to believe that someones word should be their bond, the Lib Dems should not have been so foolish maybe to promise so firmly that they would never support increases in the fees but they chose to,and they likely got many thousands of extra votes and held a great many more and won and held seats on that promise on that issue alone.

To break such a publicly freely given cast iron promise shows a lack of integrity,I thought the Lib Dems had that,now I feel as many millions of others do from their poll ratings that there is little integrity in them either now.

I enjoyed reading your post and do agree with a lot of it and agree a coalition was the best way of stable govt at this time,at least we can agree with that although I know overall you diasgree more with me.
I know I sound like a broken record probably but to me a promise is a promise and should be binding.

My protest will be done at the ballot box,at every opportunity I get, European elections, Local Elections or even in by-elections if the chance arises.
I have a feeling I will be joined by many millions more in the backlash of voting against the Lib Dems on that betrayal and that their Councillors will fall massively at next years local elections for a start.

[arista]

Some Students Are Thick.,
When will they Understand Clegg is Not the Main Power
David Cameron is.

They keep saying he said he would do this....... - if he got in power,
but he never got Total Power
Clegg is in Joint Power

[arista]

‘My mum went crazy’: Student protester pictured in riot helmet
says his life has been ‘ruined’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz16Tl2F1RS


You Live and Learn Lad.


Feel The Force.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Well, I would first of all hope that you would at least half agree that all through the election campaign there was little expectancy of any party winning an outright majority and also that a hung parliament was the likely outcome, no one surely seriously believed the Lib Dems were ever going to win outright themselves.
So the Lib Dems made their firm promises in light of that fact too.

The rise in tuition fees doesn't really hurt me much,it will some people I know though and also many others in the future.

I was a voter,the parties suggested to me what they would do, I listened,I decided to give my vote to the party I, at that time, trusted most on most things not just tuition fees,from what they promised they would do.

Personally,I think the Lib Dems were foolish to make such binding promises to the electorate and Students in particular.
Labour made a massive mess of things but if even they could devise a policy whereby these fees did not need to increase, then I am sure as a compromise and there are always compromises that can be made,that the Conservatives could have agreed to some too.

I do think, as to cuts and the rise in VAT, that without the Lib Dems the VAT rise may have been greater and that also they may have tempered the overall spending cuts too.
I didn't choose the LibDem policy on fees though, they did and promised, a cast iron promise, that they would always oppose an increase in tuition fees.

I agree with you absolutely that Labour had to be out, I was also pleased at the formation of the coalition at first,but to me a promise is a promise.

Having said that I agree compromises had to be made,you are right that the coalition has to take the big picture and not just a snapshot of what needs to be done.
As I said, and you too MTVN may never agree with me either,the promises once made should not be dropped without referral back to the people who trusted their votes to a party on that basis.
I believed the Lib Dems wanted to clean up politics not smear it more.

If we can persuade the Lib Dems or even just enough of them not to support these measures, then Students feel they have to try to do so.
If we fail,we fail but at least will have tried, not that we will get anywhere with silly brainless fighting or damage to vehicles, buildings etc; That of course is unacceptable and rediculous.

I know to you and others, I am speaking from a selfish platform it seems.
I am aware that there is a mess to sort out and I applaud many of the Con-Lib decisions already made.

I was brought up though to believe that someones word should be their bond, the Lib Dems should not have been so foolish maybe to promise so firmly that they would never support increases in the fees but they chose to,and they likely got many thousands of extra votes and held a great many more and won and held seats on that promise on that issue alone.

To break such a publicly freely given cast iron promise shows a lack of integrity,I thought the Lib Dems had that,now I feel as many millions of others do from their poll ratings that there is little integrity in them either now.

I enjoyed reading your post and do agree with a lot of it and agree a coalition was the best way of stable govt at this time,at least we can agree with that although I know overall you diasgree more with me.
I know I sound like a broken record probably but to me a promise is a promise and should be binding.

My protest will be done at the ballot box,at every opportunity I get, European elections, Local Elections or even in by-elections if the chance arises.
I have a feeling I will be joined by many millions more in the backlash of voting against the Lib Dems on that betrayal and that their Councillors will fall massively at next years local elections for a start.

Not at all, a lot of what you said was very understandable

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by arista

‘My mum went crazy’: Student protester pictured in riot helmet
says his life has been ‘ruined’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz16Tl2F1RS


You Live and Learn Lad.


Feel The Force.

"I saw a police riot helmet on the ground and put it on to give the cameramen a picture.'"

How stupid of him, I have very little sympathy

[joeysteele]

David Cameron did not make the cast iron promise, Nick Clegg and indeed all the front bench of the Lib Dems did.

As for real power, nowhere even now in opinion polls is there any sign that in an election tomorrow,the Conservatives could get a better result than they did in May.
The fact is the Conservatives can get nothing passed at all in Parliament unless the Lib Dems support them with enough of their MPs,David Cameron has to constantly watch over his shoulder in fear of losing the Lib Dem support in Parliament, there is the real power,those 57 Lib Dems who can allow anything to be passed or refuse to support it.

A point was also made as to the great decision to make parliament a 5 year fixed term.It is a great decision,however that policy was to remove from the party in govt or the Prime Minister of the day the opportunity to be able to call an elction at will. but. it has other aspects to it.

If the coalition failed and the Conservatives alienated the Lib Dems,then the Lib Dems could remove their support for the coalition, If the Conservatives then could not command an overall majority in Parliament,then no election could then still be called because of this new rule, 55% of MPs would have to support the call for an election. If that was not the case then the next largest party would have to be given the chance to form a govt and if the Lib Dems then supported Labour and other parties supported them too,a new change of govt until the 5 year term was up would be in place with a likely new coalition.

This may even be the Lib Dem plan eventually,nothing would surprise me with them now..

[arista]

"cast iron promise"


You are having a Laugh,
They are not in Total Power
none of that is in this Policy.



So it means Nothing,
Move on.