[the truth]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Did you know that 1 out of every 4 pregnancies ends in a miscarriage? So even if you are religious, clearly your God believes in abortion, he's doing it a lot. If God doesn't believe in abortion, why are there so many miscarriages?

http://www.hopexchange.com/Statistics.htm

NHS says 1 out of 5 for the UK. That's still a lot.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/miscarr...roduction.aspx

ah thats right you support millions of babies being murdered , but you blame God for all other deaths, even though you dont believe God exists? nonsense

[daniel-lewis-1985]

I think the fact that in the UK a person is allowed to abort a baby up to 6 months old is disgusting. Aborting a baby at such an advanced age where it is an actual living human being and capable of surviving outside the womb is murder in my eyes.

I am not opposed to all abortion but I 100% think the term needs to be brought down to around 3 months maximum unless there are extenuating circumstances like the baby is brain damaged or severely handicapped and would not survive or be able to live naturally unaided by machines for the rest of its life. In that case then it would be natural for that baby to die anyway.

Obviously if the mother was not aware she was pregnant or was raped then it would also be a totally different situation and that complicates things.

I don't believe in the death penalty there is far to much room for mistake and death is an easy way out. Anyone who has committed such an horrific crime should be forced to live with the guilt of that for as long as possible.

[Vicky.]

Yes the 24 week limit is barbaric IMO. Especially considering some babies survive being born at that gestation. I was under the impression that it could only be done that late in cases of severe disability or risk to the mothers life but it seems not :/

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yes the 24 week limit is barbaric IMO. Especially considering some babies survive being born at that gestation. I was under the impression that it could only be done that late in cases of severe disability or risk to the mothers life but it seems not :/

Its not, I know someone who's baby was perfectly healthy at 6 months and they had it aborted. I was so angry about it but that's not my choice to make.

Everyone has different morals in life.

[AnnieK]

Up until fairly recently some NHS trusts would perform medical terminations later than the current legal limit for cleft lips which are completely treatable and other than a scar have no lasting effects.

[Vicky.]

Well although pro-choice, I think women who chose to get late abortions for next to no reason are utter scum. I am 21 weeks pregnant now, and the thought of it makes me feel seriously ill and really sad for anyone to do it this late, nevermind later. I already have a bond with my baby, I have seen it and felt it...and IMO it would be nothing short of evil to have a termination for anything other than a serious medical reason at this stage

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well although pro-choice, I think women who chose to get late abortions for next to no reason are utter scum. I am 21 weeks pregnant now, and the thought of it makes me feel seriously ill and really sad for anyone to do it this late, nevermind later. I already have a bond with my baby, I have seen it and felt it...and IMO it would be nothing short of evil to have a termination for anything other than a serious medical reason at this stage

they are scum and it should be illegal. Id also make it a criminal offence to lie about who the father is and to wrongfully make claims off a man who is not the father of the baby

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

they are scum and it should be illegal. Id also make it a criminal offence to lie about who the father is and to wrongfully make claims off a man who is not the father of the baby

Is that not illegal anyway? Surely that would come under obtaining money by deception or something along those lines?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Is that not illegal anyway? Surely that would come under obtaining money by deception or something along those lines?

Ive never heard of any women arrested for this, have you?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

Ive never heard of any women arrested for this, have you?

Well no, but I wouldnt think its that common to begin with...

(Edit. Having said that, I do know a girl who put someones name down as the father of her child when she knew he wasnt. It wasnt for CSA purposes though, it was so he would bring the child up as his own as its real father was an arsehole. I think thats much worse than doing it for the cash)

Noone tends to get arrested for fraud cases anyway. Usually a fine and community service or something

Also on the same kinda note, you dont hear about fathers being arrested for not paying for kids that ARE theirs either. Which from my experience is a lot more common than your scenario :/

[daniel-lewis-1985]

This topic is in serious danger of turning into a sexism thread, its about abortion and the death penalty which is a very interesting subject so im hoping its not going to trail off into a 25 page heated debate about child benefits and Jeremy Kyle type dna test theories.

[Kate!]

Originally Posted by daniel-lewis-1985

I think the fact that in the UK a person is allowed to abort a baby up to 6 months old is disgusting. Aborting a baby at such an advanced age where it is an actual living human being and capable of surviving outside the womb is murder in my eyes.

I am not opposed to all abortion but I 100% think the term needs to be brought down to around 3 months maximum unless there are extenuating circumstances like the baby is brain damaged or severely handicapped and would not survive or be able to live naturally unaided by machines for the rest of its life. In that case then it would be natural for that baby to die anyway.

Obviously if the mother was not aware she was pregnant or was raped then it would also be a totally different situation and that complicates things.

I don't believe in the death penalty there is far to much room for mistake and death is an easy way out. Anyone who has committed such an horrific crime should be forced to live with the guilt of that for as long as possible.

Great post, abortion should only be allowed in certain cases e.g. for rape victims as mentioned here, and strictly only up 12 weeks or possibly even less. Anything else is morally reprehensible. I've even heard (and this is disgusting beyond belief) young girls say that if they get pregnant they'll 'get rid of it'. Abortion is NOT a form of contraception. Sometimes I despair at today's values ( waves old fogey stick ).

I do agree on the whole with your view on death penalty too Daniel, as the justice system is not infallible and the possibility of an innocent person being put to death is abhorrent. However, in cases where there is no room for doubt, especially when little kids are murdered, then they should be crucified. I'd happily put a bullet in the likes of Ian Huntley.

[GypsyGoth]

Being pro-choice and anti-death penalty is a valid stance I think. Just because you believe criminals shouldn't be killed by the state, it doesn't then mean that you believe a fetus has the same rights.

[Vicky.]

Oh I dont think I made my actual views clear on the death penalty either, which was kidna the point of the thread

I am pro-choice. But think the limit should be way lower than it is except in the case of serious medical complications/illness. My suggestion would be 8 weeks or under for people to just chose. The huge majority would know by that point that they were pregnant.

I am also pro-death penalty. In cases where it can be proven without a doubt that the person is guilty. For example the murder of that soldier in London when it was all on tape and the murderers stuck about. I do however think it is the easy way out..and if prison terms were harsher (life for murder, not 10/15 years) and prisons werent as 'nice' as they are(no TVs, pool tables and playstations), I would see no need for the death penalty.

On a separate note, I would have a special punishment for people who have sex offenses against children. Castration (not sure on the equivelent with women..being sewed up? ). Followed by a life sentence/death penalty for a second offense, though I imagine most would be miraculously 'cured' if this was the punishment

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Oh I dont think I made my actual views clear on the death penalty either, which was kidna the point of the thread

I am pro-choice. But think the limit should be way lower than it is except in the case of serious medical complications/illness. My suggestion would be 8 weeks or under for people to just chose. The huge majority would know by that point that they were pregnant.

I am also pro-death penalty. In cases where it can be proven without a doubt that the person is guilty. For example the murder of that soldier in London when it was all on tape and the murderers stuck about. I do however think it is the easy way out..and if prison terms were harsher (life for murder, not 10/15 years) and prisons werent as 'nice' as they are(no TVs, pool tables and playstations), I would see no need for the death penalty.

But high profile cases don't get let into the general population do they and don't really get the same benefits? I think it's something like 52 people who will never get out. There was a good doc on CI called 'When life means life' or something like that.

[InOne]

Ahhh found the list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...e-life_tariffs

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by InOne

But high profile cases don't get let into the general population do they and don't really get the same benefits? I think it's something like 52 people who will never get out. There was a good doc on CI called 'When life means life' or something like that.

Not sure about benefits, but the sentences even in high profile cases seem to not be actual life. Look at that jon venables kid. Yeah he was a child when he did it, but he re-offended and was let out a second time.

Even in not high profile cases though, murder should mean life in prison to me

[Vicky.]

From your link

The list does not include the likes of child killers Roy Whiting and Ian Huntley, who were not issued with a whole life tariff but were instead given minimum terms which are likely to last for most if not all of their remaining life.

'Likely' to me is not good enough for murder. Especially for a child killer.

[InOne]

There would be mass uproar if those got out I'm sure. I was just pointing out though that everyone on that list would've probably been put to death if the death penalty was in the UK and that there's no chance they'd get out now they're finally locked up, so prison does do its job in that sense. I know there's the child killers bit but I imagine that's slim if none.

But I do agree that murder should mean definite life in most cases.

[the truth]

Its absolutely insane the amount of fight we put up against killing mass murderers or the energy and money and time we spent arguing for the rights of butterflies to live in green areas yet here we have 170,000 innocent babies murdered every year and no one in power gives a damn. anyone remember when nadine dorres tried to make a speech and ask a question on this in parliament but was shouted down and laughed and , and a sneering david camerons pitiful spineless response amidst the heckling was "oh I give up" yes you sure did cameron you gave up on hundreds of thousands of murdered babies.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by the truth

Its absolutely insane the amount of fight we put up against killing mass murderers or the energy and money and time we spent arguing for the rights of butterflies to live in green areas yet here we have 170,000 innocent babies murdered every year and no one in power gives a damn. anyone remember when nadine dorres tried to make a speech and ask a question on this in parliament but was shouted down and laughed and , and a sneering david camerons pitiful spineless response amidst the heckling was "oh I give up" yes you sure did cameron you gave up on hundreds of thousands of murdered babies.

You probably kill millions of sperm every day, isn't that according to your logic potentially millions of half-babies?

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

You probably kill millions of sperm every day, isn't that according to your logic potentially millions of half-babies?

Not really seeing as sperm don't morph into babies lol unless im totally dumb we are neither sperm nor egg just a chemical reaction created when they meet.

Did you think that before we were born we were sperm who lived in our fathers testicles?

[lostalex]

Does anyone here remember anything about being a baby? Babies have no intelligence. They are not people. Stop talking about them as if they are people. They aren't even self aware. Most animals have more intelligence than a baby. A fetus/baby doesn't know the difference between being alive or dead.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Up until fairly recently some NHS trusts would perform medical terminations later than the current legal limit for cleft lips which are completely treatable and other than a scar have no lasting effects.

That's horrendous

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Does anyone here remember anything about being a baby? Babies have no intelligence. They are not people. Stop talking about them as if they are people. They aren't even self aware. Most animals have more intelligence than a baby. A fetus/baby doesn't know the difference between being alive or dead.

Very interesting point Alex, when do you think we become "self aware" 3yrs old , 4...or 5 or even older ?

Should toddlers be fair game for abortion or termination by that logic if the parents "change" their minds about wanting to bring them up ??