[Anaesthesia]

OK. Thetruth. Please answer me this.

Do you think it is right that children are giving birth to and bringing up children without ANY way of providing for them except via the state, and where they are morally, emotionally and financially INCAPABLE of providing a stable and healthy upbringing for that child? If you do believe that, I would be interested in your justification. Please provide a reasoned argument other than the across the board abhorrence you are currently showing. In many cases abortion would be the sensible and compassionate solution, and it has been performed for thousands of years, it is not a modern concept.

Are you male or female?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Anaesthesia

OK. Thetruth. Please answer me this.

Do you think it is right that children are giving birth to and bringing up children without ANY way of providing for them except via the state, and where they are morally, emotionally and financially INCAPABLE of providing a stable and healthy upbringing for that child? If you do believe that, I would be interested in your justification. Please provide a reasoned argument other than the across the board abhorrence you are currently showing. In many cases abortion would be the sensible and compassionate solution, and it has been performed for thousands of years, it is not a modern concept.

Are you male or female?

do you think its right tens of millions of innocent babies are killed off every year worldwide between and millions are killed between 12 and 14 weeks

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by the truth

do you think its right tens of millions of innocent babies are killed off every year worldwide between and millions are killed between 12 and 14 weeks

Are you ever going to post some form of proof to back up these claims you're fond of making?

[Anaesthesia]

Originally Posted by the truth

do you think its right tens of millions of innocent babies are killed off every year worldwide between and millions are killed between 12 and 14 weeks

I'm sorry, but your reasoning does seem to be skewed.Cell formations are NOT babies at this gestation age.

Would you prefer that tens of millions of unwanted children past this foetus age are brought into this world unwanted, unloved, uncared for, put with the state to bring them up, never knowing a loving home, never having a mother and father that genuinely WANT them and can provide for them?

If so, WHY. Please tell me why it is better to grow up feeling unwanted with all the psychological problems that brings (I remind you, I am adopted and I had a wonderful childhood, I was lucky but I STILL have those feelings) than for a non-sentient cluster of cells never to be born.

How shall we look after the ones that are born? Can we do that as a society? Should we all be responsible for a moment of madness between two drunk teenagers whose actions accidentally came to this? Because we are, right now.

If you believe in the right of all foetuses to be born, I am interested to hear your ideas on how these children can be provided for. And until you can talk to me about that, you are just spewing idiocy.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by the truth

do you think its right tens of millions of innocent babies are killed off every year worldwide between and millions are killed between 12 and 14 weeks

Source?

[Marsh.]

I really can't agree with that. I think the father should have a big say. They're both responsible for creating that child.

Obviously when it comes to the baby maybe compromising the mother's health it's a different ballgame but I feel it's disgusting that a father can have no input or say so when it comes to them having an unexpected pregnancy or whatever.

[lily.]

They're both responsible for creating the child, but the mother is solely responsible for carrying it for 9 months.

Giving the father rights could possibly lead to a father who wants the baby and a mother who doesn't, which then leads to a woman being forced to carry a child for 9 months against her will. Do you think that is a good situation? How would you feel if you were in that situation?

I'm 100% pro-choice. I don't care what reasons people give for aborting a baby as long as it's in the first trimester. I don't see it as any different from using a contraceptive pill or a morning after pill. Both of those technically destroy fertilised eggs.

[Marsh.]

Yes she has to carry it but she's mature enough to be having sex and making that risk. Sex = babies. That's a responsibility too.

I'm not suggesting anyone's forced against their will. But women doing whatever they please whilst the father has no input or regard for his feelings is callous.

[lily.]

I think that from a moral standpoint, it is right to consider the father's feelings, but from a legal standpoint, it could cause more problems.

If I were in the situation of an unwanted pregnancy and was considering terminating, I would discuss it with my partner and explain how I felt. But, not everyone has that kind of relationship. Some people have more of a physical connection and not so much of the emotional.. and of course, some people are in the 'one night stand' category... I doubt anyone would want to be called up by the randomer they shagged last month and and asked if they wanted to discuss the options.

Every situation is different, but there's one thing I do feel strongly about.... we can all have our opinions on what we believe to be right or wrong, but none of us ought to force our own beliefs on the people who are in the situation of contemplating an abortion. They should have the right to make their decision privately and with support from the medical professionals.

[Marsh.]

Well, clearly I'm not discussing one night stands. That's quite obvious. When one person is left with a pregnancy or a child then they are the sole decision maker.

Nobody's mentioning forcing anyone's beliefs on another. It's a thread for opinions.

[lily.]

I agree. I think that has more to do with the people in the relationships. I discuss every major decision with my other half. And, since we have two children together, we discuss things regarding how we raise them.

If people can't even discuss pregnancy options with each other, how the hell are they going to raise a child... lol

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by lily.

If people can't even discuss pregnancy options with each other, how the hell are they going to raise a child... lol

Well exactly.

[Marsh.]

On the subject of the abortion limit, I still feel it's far too high.

[lily.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

On the subject of the abortion limit, I still feel it's far too high.

Is it still at 24 weeks? If so, I agree that it needs pulled back a bit.

The blood test for down's syndrome was given to me around 12-15 weeks as far as I recall.

If the result comes back high, an amniocentesis is offered, so if someone wants to terminate based on that result, they should be able to terminate before 18 weeks.

Unless the test dates have changed, that covers all bases, and I think 18 weeks is a far more realistic limit for allowing abortion (not including extenuating circumstances like the mother's life being in danger at later stages).

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

On the subject of the abortion limit, I still feel it's far too high.

This we can definitely agree on. I remember talking about this in another thread once. I feel the limit should be around 10 weeks for just a chosen abortion (possibly less, most people know they are pregnant by 6 weeks) except in the case of medical reasons. Downs test gets given around the 12-14 week mark along with test for other serious abnormalities.

IIRC one of the points against lowering the limit was that some people do not even know they are pregnant til late on, but those people are really few and far between. Not sure what could be done about that as no doubt some would play on that as a reason to get an abortion later if they changed their mind about keeping it...

[Angelika]

Abortion is right for some and wrong for others.

Every woman has the right to chose, if she feels for some reason it's wrong to have an abortion then for her, it's clearly wrong. Another woman may have different reasons for feeling comfortable with abortion - for her, the decision to have an abortion is right.

I believe abortion is right for some and not right for others. Each woman has to make the decision for herself. I do however agree that abortion should not be considered to be a contraception technique.

[the truth]

24 weeks is murder

[Cal.]

Exceptional circumstances (find out the baby had a medical condition from an Antenatal screening/rape baby) otherwise it should be taken to adoption, there is many same sex couples and couples who can't have children looking for children, people shouldn't abort babies if they don't want them and rob other people the chance of becoming a parent. And then there's the argument of the people that have been aborted (someone who could have cured cancer, the new president/prime minister, next pop star).

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Who Is She?

Exceptional circumstances (find out the baby had a medical condition from an Antenatal screening/rape baby) otherwise it should be taken to adoption, there is many same sex couples and couples who can't have children looking for children, people shouldn't abort babies if they don't want them and rob other people the chance of becoming a parent. And then there's the argument of the people that have been aborted (someone who could have cured cancer, the new president/prime minister, next pop star).

The other end of this is that there are MANY unwanted children already available for adoption, but these people who are supposedly so desperate dont want them as they want babies.

This may come across insensitive but meh. If you were that desperate for a child and couldn't have one naturally, I dont think you should be picky about the age of said child.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The other end of this is that there are MANY unwanted children already available for adoption, but these people who are supposedly so desperate dont want them as they want babies.

This may come across insensitive but meh. If you were that desperate for a child and couldn't have one naturally, I dont think you should be picky about the age of said child.

id rather be an unwanted child looking to be adopted , than dead in a bin. at least youre alive and have a chance rather than being silently murdered in a womb

[Z]

Originally Posted by the truth

id rather be an unwanted child looking to be adopted , than dead in a bin. at least youre alive and have a chance rather than being silently murdered in a womb

If you're dead in a bin, you're dead in a bin. Can't really do anything about being alive when you're dead, whether you're a terminated foetus or an elderly person. This is such overly romanticised bollocks, I don't buy it whatsoever.

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by Who Is She?

Exceptional circumstances (find out the baby had a medical condition from an Antenatal screening/rape baby) otherwise it should be taken to adoption, there is many same sex couples and couples who can't have children looking for children, people shouldn't abort babies if they don't want them and rob other people the chance of becoming a parent. And then there's the argument of the people that have been aborted (someone who could have cured cancer, the new president/prime minister, next pop star).

A woman shouldn't be forced to carry it though if she doesn't want it. It's a lot for someone to carry a child for 9 months then give it away.

[Z]

I think the issue of abortion is so complex and there are so many different issues that come under the umbrella of the concept that it's impossible for there to ever be a "correct" course of action... but I think it's an issue that should be decided upon by women and women only. Their bodies, their rights. I think it's wrong that a woman can choose to keep a baby when the man doesn't want it because he's then held accountable for that child even if he wants nothing to do with it; but that's one of the very few instances where it affects men. It's up to women everywhere.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Z

I think the issue of abortion is so complex and there are so many different issues that come under the umbrella of the concept that it's impossible for there to ever be a "correct" course of action... but I think it's an issue that should be decided upon by women and women only. Their bodies, their rights. I think it's wrong that a woman can choose to keep a baby when the man doesn't want it because he's then held accountable for that child even if he wants nothing to do with it; but that's one of the very few instances where it affects men. It's up to women everywhere.

whata load of sexist nonsense. men are doctors , scientists, biologists and parents too.........the fact is babies killed at 24 weeks is nothing short of murder. ps half these babies and women too.

[Z]

Originally Posted by the truth

whata load of sexist nonsense. men are doctors , scientists, biologists and parents too.........the fact is babies killed at 24 weeks is nothing short of murder. ps half these babies and women too.

One thing men are not, are mothers who have to carry a pregnancy to term. I'm passing no comment or judgment on the timeline of abortion, I'm merely speaking about women having the right to decide on whether or not the actual concept is something that should be allowed or not.