[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Oh my apologies, I misunderstood your post

No need to apologise Niamh - I'm actually enjoying talking with you.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I can't speak for Niamh, but assuming that Jesus as a man did exist, claiming to be the son of a supernatural deity in order to gain a following of cultists is reason enough for me to want to tear someone down...

As it happens, I personally don't believe that the literal Jesus of the Bible ever existed at all. I'm open to the idea that the character was loosely based on a real individual, but the truth of that individual's life would be so far removed from the biblical stories as to make them as good as fiction for all intents and purposes.

With THAT in mind, I no more want to "tear down" Jesus than I want to "tear down" Harry Potter. I just reserve the right to point out that believing in wizards, dragons and house elves is somewhat questionable.

so the actual moral values and wisdom and love and content of his teachings should me ignored and mocked and you see no value in any of them? you see no value in the billions they've raised for the sick and poor..the faith beliefs and values they've helped grow in billions, the missionary work to feed cloth and educate the poor etc etc you see no value in his teachings about forgiveness and redemption ? you see no value in any of this?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by the truth

you were responding to me and my quote?

You originally quoted a post I made that was replying to a post of Kirks on the existence of Jesus

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

You originally quoted a post I made that was replying to a post of Kirks on the existence of Jesus

no you were quoting me and responding to me, have a look back at previous page

[the truth]

Originally Posted by the truth View Post
whether they were all literally miracles or symbollic allegories is a moot point..for once I was blind but now I can see is pretty open to interpretation etc . Regardless of how corrupt a minority of preachers are or how hypocritical some church goers are, the words of the original message are more important than the perversions of corrupt messengers...however its his teachings, the beliefs, the morals and values that surely are the most important lessons to be learned , understood and carried forward.

Sure but nice messages and beliefs coming from wonderful people aren't specific to religion or a God. It's the miracles and rising from the dead etc that essentially prove that Jesus was the son of God. Being a good and moral person isn't exclusive to religious people

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by the truth

so the actual moral values and wisdom and love and content of his teachings should me ignored and mocked and you see no value in any of them? you see no value in the billions they've raised for the sick and poor..the faith beliefs and values they've helped grow in billions, the missionary work to feed cloth and educate the poor etc etc you see no value in his teachings about forgiveness and redemption ? you see no value in any of this?

I see as much value in them as I see in any other fictional morality tale. The fact that they are good, or that they have done some good, has absolutely no bearing on whether or not any of it is literally real. Does that matter? Perhaps not to some people. It does to me. In my opinion, people being so stuck on stories about magical godspawn, fairies and miracles actually stops humanity as a whole reaching any sort of genuine moral enlightenment that might actually make the world better.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

That's what I mean though Niamh - Christians believe that Christ 'rose body and soul' into heaven, so IF his bones/body ever turned up then all our beliefs fly out of the window.

I'm sure if that unthinkable did happen I wouldn't hear the last of it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...st-claims.html

Geologist claims Jesus was married... and had a SON: Expert says he has proof son of God was buried in 'family tomb' along with wife Mary and his brother

• Geologist ran 150 chemical tests on ossuaries and 'Jesus Family tomb'
• Claims chemical signature proves James Ossuary was at Jerusalem site
• Chalk box bears inscription ‘James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus’
• Find suggests Jesus fathered a child and was married

*opens window*

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by the truth

no you were quoting me and responding to me, have a look back at previous page

I'm talking about the original post of mine that you were quoting that was a response to a post of kirks, yes I replied to you after you replied to me, but you completely changed what I was discussing with Kirk. I don't believe in Christ so you asking why I hate him and his teachings so much is ridiculous, it's like asking why I hate the toothfairy

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

No need to apologise Niamh - I'm actually enjoying talking with you.

Kiss her, she's Irish.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...st-claims.html

Geologist claims Jesus was married... and had a SON: Expert says he has proof son of God was buried in 'family tomb' along with wife Mary and his brother

• Geologist ran 150 chemical tests on ossuaries and 'Jesus Family tomb'
• Claims chemical signature proves James Ossuary was at Jerusalem site
• Chalk box bears inscription ‘James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus’
• Find suggests Jesus fathered a child and was married

*opens window*

I dare not answer you LT but you are wrong.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I see as much value in them as I see in any other fictional morality tale. The fact that they are good, or that they have done some good, has absolutely no bearing on whether or not any of it is literally real. Does that matter? Perhaps not to some people. It does to me. In my opinion, people being so stuck on stories about magical godspawn, fairies and miracles actually stops humanity as a whole reaching any sort of genuine moral enlightenment that might actually make the world better.

how are Christs teachings stopping is doing that? honour thy mother and father, do not bare false witness, hope love and charity, redemption and forgiveness....how exactly is this making the world a worse place and damaging our morality?

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I dare not answer you LT but you are wrong.

I did not write the article

but at least its 3 days old and not 2000 years

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I'm talking about the original post of mine that you were quoting that was a response to a post of kirks, yes I replied to you after you replied to me, but you completely changed what I was discussing with Kirk. I don't believe in Christ so you asking why I hate him and his teachings so much is ridiculous, it's like asking why I hate the toothfairy

No its nothing of the kind. we have vast documentation on Christs teachings and yet you feel his teachings have no value to the human race, why?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by the truth

how are Christs teachings stopping is doing that? honour thy mother and father, do not bare false witness, hope love and charity, redemption and forgiveness....how exactly is this making the world a worse place and damaging our morality?

Do you think people hated their mothers and fathers before Christ showed them the light?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I did not write the article

but at least its 3 days old and not 2000 years

oh so it must be true then?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I dare not answer you LT but you are wrong.

So what you're saying is... If Jesus' bones ever turned up, the Christian belief system would NOT fly out the window. The find would be debunked by whatever means necessary or, if such proved impossible, the scripture would be poured over until it could be reinterpreted to accommodate the new findings. As has been done for hundreds of years.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by the truth

No its nothing of the kind. we have vast documentation on Christs teachings and yet you feel his teachings have no value to the human race, why?

Again i don't believe in Christ so answering that is impossible

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by the truth

oh so it must be true then?

well its about the Jesus myth so I sincerely doubt it

[LeatherTrumpet]

the stuff jesus was saying is hardly rocket science and was prevalent in chinese and indian culture at that time. I think the Celts and the Picts had kind of worked out most of it before he was born.


http://www.imbas.org/articles/celtic_values.html

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by the truth

how are Christs teachings stopping is doing that? honour thy mother and father, do not bare false witness, hope love and charity, redemption and forgiveness....how exactly is this making the world a worse place and damaging our morality?

They're not. If they're taken as fictional morality tales in their proper context.

They are when people believe in them (and all of the associated supernatural claims that go alongside) and cling so firmly to those beliefs that they can't see anything beyond them.

I'm not even saying that religion hasn't had its place in the past... As a sort of hand-holding morality tool for simple folks who didn't have the understanding to consider morality as an abstract concept and needed it to be dumbed down and humanised with deities and even literal human avatars of those deities. But I like to think - it at least like to HOPE - that we will, as a collective, be ready to move on from that at some point.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

So what you're saying is... If Jesus' bones ever turned up, the Christian belief system would NOT fly out the window. The find would be debunked by whatever means necessary or, if such proved impossible, the scripture would be poured over until it could be reinterpreted to accommodate the new findings. As has been done for hundreds of years.

FFS Why does EVERY atheist on Tibb misinterpret what I am saying? I replied to LT with a very simple: "I dare not answer you LT but you are wrong." So please tell me how you derive from that simple statement; "So what you're saying is... If Jesus' bones ever turned up, the Christian belief system would NOT fly out the window."?

Especially when I had only just stated to Niamh:

"That's what I mean though Niamh - Christians believe that Christ 'rose body and soul' into heaven, so IF his bones/body ever turned up then all our beliefs fly out of the window.

Which is the the exact opposite of what you're claiming that I am saying T.S.

Also in a recent post, I stated - as an unorthodox Christian - that the evidence that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene is irrefutable, which has no bearing on him being the Messiah at all, but there is not one jot of evidence that Christ had children.

Far from it damaging Christianity, the 'James' ossuary is highly embarrassing to atheists and anti-Christians, because if it is a fake it adds nothing to their argument, but if it is real it proves the existence of Jesus.

Finding the ossuary of James does not prove Jesus did not resurrect, and there is no proof of Jesus's bones being in that tomb nor has any bona fide archaeologist or expert ever claimed or suggested that there ever have been.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Again i don't believe in Christ so answering that is impossible

it is possible you simply choose to denounce his teachings and his values simply because of your own personal baggage.... its of no concern to me as your beliefs are of no relevance to me lmao

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

They're not. If they're taken as fictional morality tales in their proper context.

They are when people believe in them (and all of the associated supernatural claims that go alongside) and cling so firmly to those beliefs that they can't see anything beyond them.

I'm not even saying that religion hasn't had its place in the past... As a sort of hand-holding morality tool for simple folks who didn't have the understanding to consider morality as an abstract concept and needed it to be dumbed down and humanised with deities and even literal human avatars of those deities. But I like to think - it at least like to HOPE - that we will, as a collective, be ready to move on from that at some point.

how insulting and patronising oh and plain nasty. we haven't moved on anywhere weve gone backwards the further weve moved away from Christs teachings

[the truth]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

FFS Why does EVERY atheist on Tibb misinterpret what I am saying? I replied to LT with a very simple: "I dare not answer you LT but you are wrong." So please tell me how you derive from that simple statement; "So what you're saying is... If Jesus' bones ever turned up, the Christian belief system would NOT fly out the window."?

Especially when I had only just stated to Niamh:

"That's what I mean though Niamh - Christians believe that Christ 'rose body and soul' into heaven, so IF his bones/body ever turned up then all our beliefs fly out of the window.

Which is the the exact opposite of what you're claiming that I am saying T.S.

Also in a recent post, I stated - as an unorthodox Christian - that the evidence that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene is irrefutable, which has no bearing on him being the Messiah at all, but there is not one jot of evidence that Christ had children.

Far from it damaging Christianity, the 'James' ossuary is highly embarrassing to atheists and anti-Christians, because if it is a fake it adds nothing to their argument, but if it is real it proves the existence of Jesus.

Finding the ossuary of James does not prove Jesus did not resurrect, and there is no proof of Jesus's bones being in that tomb nor has any bona fide archaeologist or expert ever claimed or suggested that there ever have been.

don't waste your breathe the attention seeking anti Christ hatred as we see here is for simple folk who haven't the backbone to commit to a set of good values

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by bobnot

There is a really interesting documentary on Scientology that was recently shown on HBO called: Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief. It was on youtube but i notice it has been taken down by Sky TV so i presume they are planning to show it soon as well. A really interesting watch that has got great reviews.
Off topic i know but it is a good watch.

..oh I've seen that documentary, Bob...and what I also found interesting with it was that it mentioned the Panorama programme from years ago..(did you see that..)...and some of the people who were involved in intimidating/threatening the programme makers then have now left the organisation/cult and they mentioned it on there....