[DemolitionRed]

There is zero evidence that more deaths occur at weekends due to junior doctor staffing levels and so Hunts assertion that this is the case is at best a random guess and at worst, a deliberate lie. Its counter productive to what he's trying to attempt because he can't pull through some new legislation based on made up reasoning.

We don't need to make junior doctors work the weekends because they already do! We need to get consultants, diagnostics, phlebotomists and admin staff working more weekends. If Hunt had picked his fight with them, I'd be backing him all the way

[the truth]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

There is zero evidence that more deaths occur at weekends due to junior doctor staffing levels and so Hunts assertion that this is the case is at best a random guess and at worst, a deliberate lie. Its counter productive to what he's trying to attempt because he can't pull through some new legislation based on made up reasoning.

We don't need to make junior doctors work the weekends because they already do! We need to get consultants, diagnostics, phlebotomists and admin staff working more weekends. If Hunt had picked his fight with them, I'd be backing him all the way

That's silliest post you ever written. youre trying to say the fact youre 16% more likely to die when admitted on a sunday than on a Wednesday has nothing to do with the fact there is skeleton staff on a sunday compared to Wednesday? youre in denial , youre fudging and hiding from the truth and reality and frankly youre lying to youself. no doubt if you had a close family member who had died on a sunday through not being able to get the full and proper medical attention you get in the midweek you would think very very differently.

your point about junior doctors is untrue. only SOME junior doctors work weekends, the majority do not. the other staff you mention will be shortly be put on similar work rotas to get the 24 hour care promosed

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

That's silliest post you ever written. youre trying to say the fact youre 16% more likely to die when admitted on a sunday than on a Wednesday has nothing to do with the fact there is skeleton staff on a sunday compared to Wednesday? youre in denial , youre fudging and hiding from the truth and reality and frankly youre lying to youself. no doubt if you had a close family member who had died on a sunday through not being able to get the full and proper medical attention you get in the midweek you would think very very differently.

Oh for goodness sake! I said there is zero evidence that more deaths occur at weekends due to junior doctor staffing levels. Are you suggesting that most junior doctors could make all the difference to a patient living or dying? I beg to differ, especially with those fresh out of med school and are about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Oh for goodness sake! I said there is zero evidence that more deaths occur at weekends due to junior doctor staffing levels. Are you suggesting that most junior doctors could make all the difference to a patient living or dying? I beg to differ, especially with those fresh out of med school and are about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.

yet another dishonest post, shame on you
junior doctors go all the way up to those with 5 to 15 years experience
of course they save lives? what the heck do you think they are for?

[Kizzy]

Wow...

Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt held a drinks and canapés evening despite doctors who had planned to attend being told it was cancelled.

Those hoping to attend the event on Friday at a hotel in Fareham, Hampshire, were told the event had been cancelled.
Some junior doctors and their supporters had said it may be worthwhile to buy tickets to engage Mr Hunt in a debate about his controversial new employment contract.

Doctors who had paid Ł15 for the event later found out it had quietly been moved to another location, with those in attendance being checked to ensure they hadn't brought any medics with them.

Dr Kathryn Carey-Jones wrote on Facebook: “ I could have accepted being told I am not allowed to attend given recent events, but I was lied to, to keep me away ...
"This is dishonesty at its best and would not be accepted from a doctor to a politician. If this is the way the local Conservatives treat their local doctors, what can we expect from the rest? Imagine if we lied to the public like this ...”

GP Emma Nash told Portsmouth News a friend she was going with, a Conservative party member, was refused access to the venue until she convinced the organisers there were no doctors with her.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6873546.html

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Wow...

Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt held a drinks and canapés evening despite doctors who had planned to attend being told it was cancelled.

Those hoping to attend the event on Friday at a hotel in Fareham, Hampshire, were told the event had been cancelled.
Some junior doctors and their supporters had said it may be worthwhile to buy tickets to engage Mr Hunt in a debate about his controversial new employment contract.

Doctors who had paid Ł15 for the event later found out it had quietly been moved to another location, with those in attendance being checked to ensure they hadn't brought any medics with them.

Dr Kathryn Carey-Jones wrote on Facebook: “ I could have accepted being told I am not allowed to attend given recent events, but I was lied to, to keep me away ...
"This is dishonesty at its best and would not be accepted from a doctor to a politician. If this is the way the local Conservatives treat their local doctors, what can we expect from the rest? Imagine if we lied to the public like this ...”

GP Emma Nash told Portsmouth News a friend she was going with, a Conservative party member, was refused access to the venue until she convinced the organisers there were no doctors with her.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6873546.html

This idiot is a MAJOR embarrassment to the Tories, and it is time he was given the boot.

He has NO tact. NO diplomacy, and even less guile.

His arrogant, 'bulldozing' tactics are becoming totally unpalatable and ever more despotic.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

This idiot is a MAJOR embarrassment to the Tories, and it is time he was given the boot.

He has NO tact. NO diplomacy, and even less guile.

His arrogant, 'bulldozing' tactics are becoming totally unpalatable and ever more despotic.

if only you'd show such anger at the thousands of innocent people die from neglect on weekends due toi the current system of weekend skeleton staffing

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by the truth

if only you'd show such anger at the thousands of innocent people die from neglect on weekends due toi the current system of weekend skeleton staffing

I am referring to the man's personality, attitude, and conduct, not his policies - I have no comment to make on that at this time because I have not yet finished researching, or contemplating what I have researched.

I simply have not made up my mind on this, but I HAVE decided that Hunt is a brusque, arrogant bastard who has a 'Let Them Eat Cake' superior attitude.

He is BAD for the Tories AND for those who are on the 'sharp end' of his ignorance, arrogance, and abruptness.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I am referring to the man's personality, attitude, and conduct, not his policies - I have no comment to make on that at this time because I have not yet finished researching, or contemplating what I have researched.

I simply have not made up my mind on this, but I HAVE decided that Hunt is a brusque, arrogant bastard who has a 'Let Them Eat Cake' superior attitude.

He is BAD for the Tories AND for those who are on the 'sharp end' of his ignorance, arrogance, and abruptness.

the labour fans who walk on by as 1000s die from neglect on weekends are infinitely more arrogant that hunt youre anger is 100% in the wrong place

[the truth]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I am referring to the man's personality, attitude, and conduct, not his policies - I have no comment to make on that at this time because I have not yet finished researching, or contemplating what I have researched.

I simply have not made up my mind on this, but I HAVE decided that Hunt is a brusque, arrogant bastard who has a 'Let Them Eat Cake' superior attitude.

He is BAD for the Tories AND for those who are on the 'sharp end' of his ignorance, arrogance, and abruptness.

sounds like your anti tory hate is clouding your objectivity. take each issue on merit.

[DemolitionRed]

laughs. Maybe we just need to give him a shovel.

[Vicky.]

Also as someone who has recently spent a fair bit of time in hospital, I can't say I have noticed a difference in staffing levels weekend V weekday. Night V day though, on a night there were TWO nurses to watch a ward full of 18 who were all classed as very ill as they were all post surgery. On a day there was one nurse per 3 patients. It took me like 2 hours on some nights to get my morphine shot because of low staffing levels. I have to say though, the night staff were so much friendlier than the day ones.

I did have to wait til the Monday for my surgery though. I was originally meant to get it on the Sunday but I wasn't 'emergency' as such at that point.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Also as someone who has recently spent a fair bit of time in hospital, I can't say I have noticed a difference in staffing levels weekend V weekday. Night V day though, on a night there were TWO nurses to watch a ward full of 18 who were all classed as very ill as they were all post surgery. On a day there was one nurse per 3 patients. It took me like 2 hours on some nights to get my morphine shot because of low staffing levels. I have to say though, the night staff were so much friendlier than the day ones.

I did have to wait til the Monday for my surgery though. I was originally meant to get it on the Sunday but I wasn't 'emergency' as such at that point.

You had to mention nurses didn't you ?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You had to mention nurses didn't you ?

Was a shortage of qualified doctors 24/7 tbh. Had to have an emergency ECG and it took nearly an hour to get a doc to do it. Then the useless bastard poked me about 50 times (and that is NO exaggeration) trying to get a vein, didn't apply pressure afterwards either resulting in my arm swelling up like a balloon, then threatened me that if my veins didn't start cooperating he would have to stick it in my neck (!)

One of the trainee doctors (who was meant to be just observing) could see him getting stressed and asked for a try, and she got a vein straight away

Also I didn't realise there was a problem with nurses too...oh dear :S

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Was a shortage of qualified doctors 24/7 tbh. Had to have an emergency ECG and it took nearly an hour to get a doc to do it. Then the useless bastard poked me about 50 times (and that is NO exaggeration) trying to get a vein, didn't apply pressure afterwards either resulting in my arm swelling up like a balloon, then threatened me that if my veins didn't start cooperating he would have to stick it in my neck (!)

One of the trainee doctors (who was meant to be just observing) could see him getting stressed and asked for a try, and she got a vein straight away

Also I didn't realise there was a problem with nurses too...oh dear :S

Spread thin due to cost cutting and overworked, nurses numbers are kept down and topped up with agency

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Spread thin due to cost cutting and overworked, nurses numbers are kept down and topped up with agency

Never ever had an issue with a nurse bar a very slight problem with one who tried to tell me that getting IV morphine was exactly the same (both pain relief and time to kick in) as taking 2 30mg CODEINE!!! Had never heard such tosh in my life. It did turn out that one of the other nurses was off and my nurse was trying to cut her own workload (didn't want to be faffing about with IV stuff, although I already had a line in...) but come on. I am not ****ing stupid. Just be honest with me

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Spread thin due to cost cutting and overworked, nurses numbers are kept down and topped up with agency

again the contract you hate (simply because youre anti tory) will help in reducing the need for agency workers, for reasons outlined in my last post

[the truth]

as well as the disgraceful behaviour of the BMA is having skeleton staff across the UK on weekends .....the other massive problem is using external private staff at double treble rates costing the nhs even more lost billions....that's a problem that is multi pronged. the nhs is a worldwide attraction so specific immigration targeted at people with skills and in particular doctors, nurses and medically trained staff would all help. Jeremy hunts new contract will also help a bit towards reducing this need to external staff as the new rota system ensures all hours are covered more thoroughly. as it is now, the nhs can have too much staff at certain times and far too few at other times. plus the double time on weekends for junior doctors, the nhs cannot afford. I trutly think this contract is the best move the nhs has made in 50 years

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

as well as the disgraceful behaviour of the BMA is having skeleton staff across the UK on weekends .....the other massive problem is using external private staff at double treble rates costing the nhs even more lost billions....that's a problem that is multi pronged. the nhs is a worldwide attraction so specific immigration targeted at people with skills and in particular doctors, nurses and medically trained staff would all help. Jeremy hunts new contract will also help a bit towards reducing this need to external staff as the new rota system ensures all hours are covered more thoroughly. as it is now, the nhs can have too much staff at certain times and far too few at other times. plus the double time on weekends for junior doctors, the nhs cannot afford. I trutly think this contract is the best move the nhs has made in 50 years

There is no funding for staffing and yet fines for not having adequate staffing levels, therefore agency is relied on. How is this a BMA issue? It's down to trusts.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

There is no funding for staffing and yet fines for not having adequate staffing levels, therefore agency is relied on. How is this a BMA issue? It's down to trusts.

Yup my mother goes mental about this. A bunch of her friends were laid off...and now their jobs are filled with agency workers on double the wage that her friends were on? As the hours need to be filled still...what sense does this make?

Granted she doesn't work in a hospital...she works ina carehome for people with Alzheimers, but I imagine its the same.

[DemolitionRed]

Looks like we are all being conned.

If you want to see who is really to blame for our hospital shambles, you should read this http://koshh.org/the-connection-betw...ver-of-the-nhs

Junior doctors’ loss of income and increased hours performing routine work in previously defined unsocial hours will increase profitability for the new players who will be providing healthcare by sweating the assets.
The prospect of a 30% reduction in pay through restriction of unsocial hours payment and increased working week has been the prompt for protest and a potential spark for a brain drain with thousands preparing documentation to emigrate.

Leaving the NHS for pastures new is an entirely justified response but will do nothing to defend the NHS for the relatives and friends left behind who may need to rely on it for care. Those that leave now in the hope of coming back later when the dust has settled may find that the NHS has dwindled to a threadbare remnant in their absence, and the country will be a worse place for it. We are collectively faced with one of the greatest political betrayal of the public interest in destroying the best healthcare system in the industrialised world and replacing with a model resembling the worst.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Looks like we are all being conned.

If you want to see who is really to blame for our hospital shambles, you should read this http://koshh.org/the-connection-betw...ver-of-the-nhs

Junior doctors’ loss of income and increased hours performing routine work in previously defined unsocial hours will increase profitability for the new players who will be providing healthcare by sweating the assets.
The prospect of a 30% reduction in pay through restriction of unsocial hours payment and increased working week has been the prompt for protest and a potential spark for a brain drain with thousands preparing documentation to emigrate.

Leaving the NHS for pastures new is an entirely justified response but will do nothing to defend the NHS for the relatives and friends left behind who may need to rely on it for care. Those that leave now in the hope of coming back later when the dust has settled may find that the NHS has dwindled to a threadbare remnant in their absence, and the country will be a worse place for it. We are collectively faced with one of the greatest political betrayal of the public interest in destroying the best healthcare system in the industrialised world and replacing with a model resembling the worst.

Of course and we've been complicit in the destruction, look at the waiting times fiasco, sold as a sure sign of a failing system unable to cope and subsequently affected areas were put out for tender or had funding slashed.
Now waiting times are fine, it's well worth it for a 'quality' service.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...mment-68692891

[DemolitionRed]

I have Hunts co-authored book "Direct Democracy" but its not presently available on Amazon or Waterstones. I have however managed to find some relevant sections here though https://whatwouldvirchowdo.files.wor...odel_party.pdf

Here are a few snippets:

The problem with the NHS is not one of resources. Rather, it is that the system remains a centrally run, state monopoly, designed over half a century ago.
We should fund patients, either through the tax system or by way of universal insurance, to purchase health care from the provider of their choice.

Rather than a lack of resources, the reason for the NHS's poor performance lies in its structure. The NHS designed over half a century ago, at a time of rationing and deep poverty. It was, and remains, a child of its time, conceived on the principle that the benefit state should be a monopoly provider.

Our ambitions should be to break down the barriers between private and public provision, in effect denationalising the provision of health care in Britain, so extending to all the choices currently available only to the minority who opt for private provision.


This book is worth buying if you can eventually get hold of it, though don't take much notice of statistics because they come without an ounce of evidence. What is concerning is the lengthy talks about Conservative ideas to privatize state schools Because what is being suggested in this book is exactly what is going on in our new 'academies' in our present times.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I have Hunts co-authored book "Direct Democracy" but its not presently available on Amazon or Waterstones. I have however managed to find some relevant sections here though https://whatwouldvirchowdo.files.wor...odel_party.pdf

Here are a few snippets:

The problem with the NHS is not one of resources. Rather, it is that the system remains a centrally run, state monopoly, designed over half a century ago.
We should fund patients, either through the tax system or by way of universal insurance, to purchase health care from the provider of their choice.

Rather than a lack of resources, the reason for the NHS's poor performance lies in its structure. The NHS designed over half a century ago, at a time of rationing and deep poverty. It was, and remains, a child of its time, conceived on the principle that the benefit state should be a monopoly provider.

Our ambitions should be to break down the barriers between private and public provision, in effect denationalising the provision of health care in Britain, so extending to all the choices currently available only to the minority who opt for private provision.


This book is worth buying if you can eventually get hold of it, though don't take much notice of statistics because they come without an ounce of evidence. What is concerning is the lengthy talks about Conservative ideas to privatize state schools Because what is being suggested in this book is exactly what is going on in our new 'academies' in our present times.

Thankyou so much for that DR, so interesting and terrifying at the same time :/
There is too I'd say a drive to deprofessionalise teaching, as it's impossible to do that with health provision the alternative is to get rid.
By 2020 there will be nothing left, nothing.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Thankyou so much for that DR, so interesting and terrifying at the same time :/
There is too I'd say a drive to deprofessionalise teaching, as it's impossible to do that with health provision the alternative is to get rid.
By 2020 there will be nothing left, nothing.

They are certainly trying to deprofessionalize a lot of the health care departments Kizzy. My GP now has one doctor on duty at any one time and they tend to be newly qualified GP's; the rest are nurse practitioners.

A friend of mine who has FM had been referred to a pain clinic in Leeds and waited a staggering three months to be seen, became suspicious that the man who was asking her to go through her symptoms whilst he busily typed up her notes on a computer, wasn't a doctor. It turned out he wasn't even a qualified nurse but someone who had been trained to say all the right things. To make a comparison, I used a pain clinic in London a few years ago and I was seen by a doctor and offered a whole load of options (medicine wise). All my friend was offered was a therapy group to talk about her pain.

This is what happens when you have medicine for profit business. Less and less will become available to us and eventually we will be expected, just like our American friends, to have insurance cover or get the barest minimum.