[Robodog]

Originally Posted by Mullens123

You literally just have to go onto the Deborah is third or Hannah has been evicted posts on facebook to see people using racial slurs or using skin colour is a derogatory manner.

Guess its overshadowed by this constant positivity that has seen women of colour place no higher than 3rd in 17 years.

Just because a transgender individual wins Big Brother doesn't mean transphobia isn't an existing force among the general public, same as a gay person winning doesn't denounce homophobia and a woman winning doesn't imply sexism has ended. Saying these things isn't claiming that the ENTIRE public feels this way, but even if 5-10% of a viewing audience hold prejudice or bigoted views it makes a difference and creates a climate where people will struggle to win simply because of gender, race, sexuality etc.

Well you can either focus on the ever-increasing positives (of which there is PLENTY of solid evidence for in the BB world) take heart, and build upon that.

Or you can focus on the negatives (for which there is no solid evidence, just questions and implications in the minds of the accusers), feel downhearted about those questions and keep going round in circles, ignoring all that positive progress that IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

I'm sure there are individuals making stupid remarks on social media. I'm sure they always will be. I don't think it's realistic to expect to be able to silence every voice that you don't agree with. Attempting to do that runs the risk of becoming fascist yourself.

As Salman Rushdie said:

"One of the problems with defending free speech is you often have to defend people that you find to be outrageous and unpleasant and disgusting."

That's what a free, healthy society looks like. Fortunately most people are pretty awake on such issues and see the person, not the pigeon-hole. It's happening more and more. Especially on Big Brother.

But seriously, take heart, look at the overwhelming evidence to the positive regarding BB the good it does for society, embracing all manner of individuals from all backgrounds. This show celebrates it like no other. It leads the way for public awareness and acceptance for say, trans-individuals: Luke A, Lauren Harries, Kellie Malonie etc.

As for whether or why not a black female will ever win. Well it's up to those individuals isn't it? Pauline had every chance of winning but she blew it by being spiteful.

Deborah got very close to winning yesterday. She was lovely. But people also liked Raph and Isabelle. They were lovely too. Anyone who suggests the Raph/Isabelle voters were voting them out of some kind of 'unspoken racism' towards Deborah are seriously deluding themselves. Where does that get you?

The progress for anti-racism requires two things:

1. That people stop being racist
2. That people acknowledge when this is happening.

It cuts both ways.

Or we get nowhere.

[Tom4784]

Yes but it's unlikely. There's a definite prejudice against them, Sue is a prime example of this due to how the crowd booed her before she even spoke, the only thing we knew about her was that she was a black woman and the crowd booed.

There's been a number of black female HMs that have received undue hate when they haven't really been villains either. It's quite undeniable that black female HMs have way more of a mountain to climb than most, another example of this is Debs and Hannah this series when they'd get the stereotypical 'aggressive' edit and commentary from people when they were often provoked by more aggressive people looking for a reaction.

I think it's undeniable that, at this point, if you are a black female you will typically have a harder time then you would if you were the exact same person but white.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Hayden

No I don't see colour x

[Crimson Dynamo]

if it was BB Nigeria or anywhere there was say a 8% white population it would be the same thread but about a white winner

lets face facts

[Littlegreen]

I'd like to think so, but I'm fully aware of how bigoted and some people still are in this day and age.

Always hope.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

if it was BB Nigeria or anywhere there was say a 8% white population it would be the same thread but about a white winner

lets face facts

How dare you every winner of BB Africa has been white

[Mullens123]

Originally Posted by Robodog

Well you can either focus on the ever-increasing positives (of which there is PLENTY of solid evidence for in the BB world) take heart, and build upon that.

Or you can focus on the negatives (for which there is no solid evidence, just questions and implications in the minds of the accusers), feel downhearted about those questions and keep going round in circles, ignoring all that positive progress that IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

I'm sure there are individuals making stupid remarks on social media. I'm sure they always will be. I don't think it's realistic to expect to be able to silence every voice that you don't agree with. Attempting to do that runs the risk of becoming fascist yourself.

As Salman Rushdie said:

"One of the problems with defending free speech is you often have to defend people that you find to be outrageous and unpleasant and disgusting."

That's what a free, healthy society looks like. Fortunately most people are pretty awake on such issues and see the person, not the pigeon-hole. It's happening more and more. Especially on Big Brother.

But seriously, take heart, look at the overwhelming evidence to the positive regarding BB the good it does for society, embracing all manner of individuals from all backgrounds. This show celebrates it like no other. It leads the way for public awareness and acceptance for say, trans-individuals: Luke A, Lauren Harries, Kellie Malonie etc.

As for whether or why not a black female will ever win. Well it's up to those individuals isn't it? Pauline had every chance of winning but she blew it by being spiteful.

Deborah got very close to winning yesterday. She was lovely. But people also liked Raph and Isabelle. They were lovely too. Anyone who suggests the Raph/Isabelle voters were voting them out of some kind of 'unspoken racism' towards Deborah are seriously deluding themselves. Where does that get you?

The progress for anti-racism requires two things:

1. That people stop being racist
2. That people acknowledge when this is happening.

It cuts both ways.

Or we get nowhere.

But what ARE the ever increasing positives? If anything minorities are performing worse in Big Brother now than they ever have before, and Deborah coming third/Pauline getting cheers on launch isn't going to be enough proof to convince a lot of people otherwise. Especially when Isabelle won in a landslide vote last night, so Deborah wasn't close beyond her top 3 placement. As for there being no solid evidence... its on our screens... you can have Kieran mention he's slept with 350 women and get cheers from an audience, but a girl talking about sex and steering away from conflict can evoke some of the harshest responses from the viewing audience.

Nowhere did I say I want to silence the bigoted comments online. I'm using them as an example to show that these views are still very much alive among people, and that will play a part in the results of the show being watched.

It just feels almost like a political party telling people how they should and shouldn't feel about a situation, and that 'evidence' shows how things are so much better when many aren't finding things so merry. As much as I'd like to say one day these issues won't be around (especially in something as trivial as a reality tv show), I don't think we are near a point of removing prejudice views that have been ingrained into society for years.

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

if it was BB Nigeria or anywhere there was say a 8% white population it would be the same thread but about a white winner

lets face facts

And that would be a form of prejudice... not exactly difficult to say.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Mullens123

And that would be a form of prejudice... not exactly difficult to say.

A country will a very small minority of white people would be prejudice for having a lot of black winners?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Cherie

How dare you every winner of BB Africa has been white

[Mullens123]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

A country will a very small minority of white people would be prejudice for having a lot of black winners?

No, it would be a form of prejudice if a country of a small minority of white people had a housemate who was white, and given unfair treatment due to being white.

Not sure why its so difficult to wrap your head around the simple argument... no one is saying Big Brother should have had 17 black female winners... the argument isn't even that any non-white women should have won at this point. It's that there are far too many cases where women of colour have clearly been treated differently, with both the language and actions against them strongly implying prejudice. The same can be said for women in general on reality tv, who are clearly treated in a completely different manner even if they do the exact same thing as a male counterpart.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Mullens123

Not sure why its so difficult to wrap your head around the simple argument...

Yeah, try making a point without insulting people and they may be more willing to read it.

[Mullens123]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Yeah, try making a point without insulting people and they may be more willing to read it.

If you think that is insulting you then what a mess

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Mullens123

If you think that is insulting you then what a mess

Hilarious.

[JayGreen]

Originally Posted by Hayden

Sorry, this thread is a yearly tradition, wouldn't be the same without it x

Yes, god yes!!!!

[Mullens123]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Hilarious.

x

[Robodog]

Originally Posted by Mullens123

As for there being no solid evidence... its on our screens... you can have Kieran mention he's slept with 350 women and get cheers from an audience, but a girl talking about sex and steering away from conflict can evoke some of the harshest responses from the viewing audience.
.

On the flipside you have Sinitta performing 'So Macho' on BOTS last night, surrounded by topless, greased-up, gyrating, stereotypical 'hunks'.

Can you imagine the reverse of that: seeing an 80s male popstar singing a song about his ideal girl being 'So Girlie', surrounded by topless, greased-up, gyrating, stereotypical 'dolly birds'?


Ich don't think so....

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Robodog

On the flipside you have Sinitta performing 'So Macho' on BOTS last night, surrounded by topless, greased-up, gyrating, stereotypical 'hunks'.

Can you imagine the reverse of that: seeing an 80s male popstar singing a song about his ideal girl being 'So Girlie', surrounded by topless, greased-up, gyrating, stereotypical 'dolly birds'?


Ich don't think so....

Well you don't need to go back to the 80s to see something like that on a daily basis on the music channels.

[Ashley.]

If they're good, they're good, and people will vote for them.

Seems like, you can't really win on here. If a male wins, it's a lack of equality for females and if a female wins, but she's white, it's a lack of equality for black females.

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

When BB finally gets one in without a vile attitude and who doesn't throw the race card every 5 minutes,maybe ...but not if they carry on with the types they put in every year

Sort of agree with this, apart from the race card thing. The show casts stereotypes that are usually disliked by the British public. Deborah was an exception to this and that's why she had so much support.

[Robodog]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Well you don't need to go back to the 80s to see something like that on a daily basis on the music channels.

Ha true

Sex sells and probably always will

[Denver]

CBB20 winner - Sandi Bogle
CBB21 winner - Sandra Martin
CBB Allstars winner - Tiffany Pollard

[Wizard.]

Sandi's coming for the CBB crown!

[Robodog]

It's sad to think when we do have a BB winner who is black and female, there will be people who will be celebrating it simply because they are black and female.

It would be as narrow-minded and basic as people celebrating Jason's win last year simply because he was white and male.

I don't remember people on this or other forums cheering for him for those reasons!

Thankfully most BB viewers vote and celebrate based on personality, not on pigeon-holes.

Hard for some people to accept that. But it's true.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Robodog

It's sad to think when we do have a BB winner who is black and female, there will be people who will be celebrating it simply because they are black and female.

It would be as narrow-minded and basic as people celebrating Jason's win last year simply because he was white and male.

I don't remember people on this or other forums cheering for him for those reasons!

Thankfully most BB viewers vote and celebrate based on personality, not on pigeon-holes.

Hard for some people to accept that. But it's true.

Tbf, that's two very different things. White males haven't faced the same struggles.

That's like saying straight couples don't face the same celebration at Pride as gay couples. Well, straight couples haven't had to fight for acceptance.

[CaPPa]

So racism and sexism combine? We can have a black male or white female winner but not a black woman? That is ridiculous.

If a black woman was the best character then she'd win, it's just this season the best character was orange.

[Ashley.]

Originally Posted by CaPPa

So racism and sexism combine? We can have a black male or white female winner but not a black woman? That is ridiculous.

If a black woman was the best character then she'd win, it's just this season the best character was orange.