[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

tbf Cherie I think Vicky was the only one using that as an argument, most people are saying that killing animals in a slaughter house is going to be bad no matter what

Yeah I do think I was about the only one to actully say this.

I do think its unpleasant either way. I agree that Halal slaughter LOOKS more unpleasant (having watched parminions link..the actual link doesn't need to be posted, you told people how to find it should they be interested.) than otherwise. It seems the main question is, IS it actually more unpleasant for the animal or not.


Jaxie I will read your RSPCA links in a bit (seems I need a pdf reader on here and I cant disappear back upstairs as my sons off school with the trots.). New scientist I have found in the past to be very much pseudoscience and infact that very article is a little problematic when arguing on this issue. The main problem I can see with the article, is again is does not appear to be comparing like with like. It states that cutting the throat starts a pain signal due to severed nerves (which is odd, as serious injuries tend to hurt not much more than a little nick...in people anyway. Unless this IS the pain thats spoke of in this. The pressurey feeling you get, but not exactly pain), and that apparently stunning afterwards removes this pain signal. Doesn't appear to be any actual looking into stunning then slitting, or indeed stunning the bolting...which is a different kind of pain altogether. Which is problematic, of course, when trying to argue for one method or the other. This is one glaring issue I see with this on a skim read and my knowledge of newscientist..ahem..totally misrepresenting a lot of studies before. I would much rather have the actual study, than newscientists take on it tbh. But appreciate not all studies are made available to the public

I will read the rspca stuff when I can. This is not a topic I had really thought that much into actually until this thread. So its been interesting, at least. And odd at times, sure

[Vicky.]

Having said this, even without reading the RSPCA stuff I am almost swayed by this alone

Which countries have banned non-stun slaughter, including for halal and kosher?
Denmark, Iceland and Sweden

As I believe the Nordic countries to be way advanced than us when concerning almost all matters.

Though still...as I have said through the whole thread, I put more importance on living conditions than the minute or so before/during death. But would still prefer the least painful method to be used in all animal slaughter, obviously.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Having said this, even without reading the RSPCA stuff I am almost swayed by this alone



As I believe the Nordic countries to be way advanced than us when concerning almost all matters.

Though still...as I have said through the whole thread, I put more importance on living conditions than the minute or so before/during death. But would still prefer the least painful method to be used in all animal slaughter, obviously.

I still believe it's more of a health and safety issue than anything as to why non-stun methods are banned in those countries.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I still believe it's more of a health and safety issue than anything as to why non-stun methods are banned in those countries.

Possible of course.

I believe that stunning is used in our country more for a health and safety thing than a welfare thing. So it would stand to reason that as much (if not more) emphasis was put on health and safety of the workers in those countries.

I'm a bit all over my place on my views on this, as I have never really thought deeply into the matter before tbh. I have been pretty firmly in the...living conditions matter so much more than final few minutes of life camp for as long as I can remember. Until for some reason I became overinvested in this thread. Which is nothing to do with cultural beliefs, more because it seems rational to me that a clean cut to the throat with a sharp enough knife should cause very little pain, if any at all and would be over quickly. And it was interesting to see a study posted that seemed to back up my thoughts on this. I think this is where I became over invested and maybe started getting a little silly with my bold statements

Obviously if we could get it where living conditions were always good, AND we had a universal method of death which was proven beyond all doubt to cause the least pain then that would be much preferable. But thats unlikely to happen anytime soon. Maybe this lab grown meat stuff might end some of this debate. Though we will always need to slaughter animals for food, even of the whole world went veggie. Unless we also gave up our pets at the same time...as it is definite cruelty to make a carnivore pet survive on a vegetarian diet IMO.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Possible of course.

I believe that stunning is used in our country more for a health and safety thing than a welfare thing. So it would stand to reason that as much (if not more) emphasis was put on health and safety of the workers in those countries.

I'm a bit all over my place on my views on this, as I have never really thought deeply into the matter before tbh. I have been pretty firmly in the...living conditions matter so much more than final few minutes of life camp for as long as I can remember. Until for some reason I became overinvested in this thread. Which is nothing to do with cultural beliefs, more because it seems rational to me that a clean cut to the throat with a sharp enough knife should cause very little pain, if any at all and would be over quickly. And it was interesting to see a study posted that seemed to back up my thoughts on this. I think this is where I became over invested and maybe started getting a little silly with my bold statements

Obviously if we could get it where living conditions were always good, AND we had a universal method of death which was proven beyond all doubt to cause the least pain then that would be much preferable. But thats unlikely to happen anytime soon. Maybe this lab grown meat stuff might end some of this debate. Though we will always need to slaughter animals for food, even of the whole world went veggie. Unless we also gave up our pets at the same time...as it is definite cruelty to make a carnivore pet survive on a vegetarian diet IMO.

I feel very much the same, there is no kind method of killing an animal for meat and, judging by studies of how much the animal suffers with each method, the only real difference with western techniques is the delusion we place ourselves under. It would be lovely if there was a kind way of killing animals for meat but there isn't one that won't spoil the meat.

More emphasis should be placed on living conditions and it wouldn't surprise me if the countries you listed earlier have laws and regulations that reflect that. Battery farms and the like should be illegal, it would certainly help the farming industry if industrial battery farms are outlawed in favour of more traditional and kinder farming methods more common to the average farm.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I feel very much the same, there is no kind method of killing an animal for meat and, judging by studies of how much the animal suffers with each method, the only real difference with western techniques is the delusion we place ourselves under. It would be lovely if there was a kind way of killing animals for meat but there isn't one that won't spoil the meat.

More emphasis should be placed on living conditions and it wouldn't surprise me if the countries you listed earlier have laws and regulations that reflect that. Battery farms and the like should be illegal, it would certainly help the farming industry if industrial battery farms are outlawed in favour of more traditional and kinder farming methods more common to the average farm.

They have battery farms for rabbits as well over in Spain, they're awful

[Tom4784]

As for Parm's insistence to post slaughter videos, we've already established that it would be pointless to do so. Stunning prevents animals from reacting to their death so it look peaceful for the animal than it actually is. Posting a video and saying that one method is better for the animal based on visuals alone in pointless when there's been enough evidence posted in the thread proving that stunning causes the animal more pain and stress.

Stunning is a health and safety measure, it's for the benefit of the workers, not the animals.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

As for Parm's insistence to post slaughter videos, we've already established that it would be pointless to do so. Stunning prevents animals from reacting to their death so it look peaceful for the animal than it actually is. Posting a video and saying that one method is better for the animal based on visuals alone in pointless when there's been enough evidence posted in the thread proving that stunning causes the animal more pain and stress.

Stunning is a health and safety measure, it's for the benefit of the workers, not the animals.

its great to have such an expert on board, when was your last slaughter?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

its great to have such an expert on board, when was your last slaughter?

I'm no expert, I've just paid attention to the evidence provided in articles written by actual experts that know more about the science than either you or me.

Again, this should be obvious, I've never claimed to be an expert. I'm quite sick of explaining things that should be obvious because you want to act in a completely undignified manner rather than admitting you could be wrong.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I'm no expert, I've just paid attention to the evidence provided in articles written by actual experts that know more about the science than either you or me.

Again, this should be obvious, I've never claimed to be an expert. I'm quite sick of explaining things that should be obvious because you want to act in a completely undignified manner rather than admitting you could be wrong.

for a minute I thought I wrote that