[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The majority of people have finite budgets and its entirely up to individuals how they choose to prioritise and spend their surplus cash. If someone wants to blow it on a nice car, that's their choice, if someone wants a nice phone, thats their choice. If someone wants to save for a house, that's their choice. It's been the same for generations. We all have our own priorities and very few get all they want handed to them on a plate

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I didn't scoff I just said that wasn't everyone reality and because someone had worked it out didn't make it true for everyone, I'm bringing Asians up as you said my scenario only covered middle class earners with 2.4 kids, when clearly that is not the case, and yes people can save for a deposit by not paying rent are you saying they can't? A one bed flat is 1,000 a month round here are you seriously saying that saving that amount of money wouldn't add up after a few years? I don't know why you find things so hard to follow, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

If families lived as many Asians do and pool their resources in their entirety then yes you could have more than one at home, provided of course you have the room.
Traditionally when we have our young adults living at home they pay very little or nothing.

Is £1000 a month to rent or buy? There's no need to start being rude, who on earth can afford to save 1k a month even if you were living with your parents is there, seriously... what would you have to be making in your opinion in order to save that amount?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

If families lived as many Asians do and pool their resources in their entirety then yes you could have more than one at home, provided of course you have the room.
Traditionally when we have our young adults living at home they pay very little or nothing.

Is £1000 a month to rent or buy? There's no need to start being rude, who on earth can afford to save 1k a month even if you were living with your parents is there, seriously... what would you have to be making in your opinion in order to save that amount?

1,000 a month to rent! you would pay no where near that on a 25 year mortgage, what you save will depend on what you earn but if as a couple you could afford 1k a month in rent then you could save that if parents were willing to take you back for a few years? , 25K a year is probably an average wage in London so it is achievable, again with the rider not everyone will be earning this because I feel I have to clarify everything that I say

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The majority of people have finite budgets and its entirely up to individuals how they choose to prioritise and spend their surplus cash. If someone wants to blow it on a nice car, that's their choice, if someone wants a nice phone, thats their choice. If someone wants to save for a house, that's their choice. It's been the same for generations. We all have our own priorities and very few get all they want handed to them on a plate

That's fair do's and perfectly obvious, however it doesn't detract from the fact that for many who traditionally would've been able to work and live (if frugally) and still save with their folks now cannot.
They have been totally priced out of the market.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

If families lived as many Asians do and pool their resources in their entirety then yes you could have more than one at home, provided of course you have the room.
Traditionally when we have our young adults living at home they pay very little or nothing.

Is £1000 a month to rent or buy? There's no need to start being rude, who on earth can afford to save 1k a month even if you were living with your parents is there, seriously... what would you have to be making in your opinion in order to save that amount?

I dunno Kizzy, if I was living rent-and-bills-free that would already be £800 a month. If we got rid of the car and took insurance, upkeep and fuel out of the equation that would easily be closer to £1100. I'd also say that, realistically, if we dramatically tightened our belts we could easily save another £500 a month on top of that so that's £1100 a month without changing our lifestyle or £1600 a month if we became hermits.

And I'm certainly not "rich" or even that well off. Obviously the "living with parents" scenario isn't a realistic one with kids unless your parents have a mansion, BUT in theory, if we were a childless couple both working full time, we could live with parents and save that amount. It would be a nightmare but possible. I guess the point is - an absolutely massive chunk of most people's monthly budget is rent and utility bills. If you take those out of the equation, you actually can save a lot of money pretty quickly.

A friend of mine did it - him and his girlfriend (now wife) lived with her parents for nearly 2 years when they were in their mid 20's, and they were saving over £1000 a month for a deposit on a flat just with him on full time £9 an hour, and her 20-hours at minimum wage. And then they had a relative die and leave them over £70k which they used to buy a place outright so it was all pointless in the end ... ... lucky bastard...

Of course, ALL of this hinges on whether people have parents who are well off enough to have the space for it, who actually WANT to do it, and also where everyone gets along well. The reality is, most people just don't have that.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

1,000 a month to rent! you would pay no where near that on a 25 year mortgage, what you save will depend on what you earn but if as a couple you could afford 1k a month in rent then you could save that if parents were willing to take you back for a few years? , 25K a year is probably an average wage in London so it is achievable, again with the rider not everyone will be earning this because I feel I have to clarify everything that I say

As a couple... So there are two wages to consider now? I'm sure in cals calculation there was only one.

If we are discussing buying property why mention rental values?
You do have to clarify everything you say as you have intimated it's relatively simple ,even Sajid Javid knows it's nigh on impossible!


Sajid Javid pointed out that the average first-time buyer in London last year needed a deposit of more than £90,000.

'The communities secretary, Sajid Javid, has lambasted baby boomers who believe young people could afford a home if they cut back on nights out and avocados, saying such critics were out of touch with a broken housing system.

Javid warned that without urgent action to make homes more affordable, an entire generation could becomes rootless, and resentful of both capitalism and politicians.

His speech in Bristol came shortly after Theresa May visited a social housing estate in north London, as part of a concerted government push on the issue ahead of next week’s budget.

Javid had tough words for “baby boomers who have long since paid off their own mortgage” who believed there was no need to build more homes, saying they were “living in a different world”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...arket-avocados

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That's fair do's and perfectly obvious, however it doesn't detract from the fact that for many who traditionally would've been able to work and live (if frugally) and still save with their folks now cannot.
They have been totally priced out of the market.

This is only really true in London & the SoE Kizzy... even the graph confirms that. Prices vs Income seem to be relatively stable otherwise, with the national average being skewed upwards by London + South. This graph from one of your own link confirms that:



In Scotland and the North, average prices have been hovering around 3 to 4 times average income since at least the early 80's. Obviously that also differs by area, e.g. Edinburgh can get very expensive, and the village I live in has basically no property under £100k, but the next village over has 2-bed flats going for £35k. Not particularly nice ones, but still. I've also seen 3 bed houses for as little as £45k, though admittedly they would need at least and other £10-15000 spent on them before living in them.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I dunno Kizzy, if I was living rent-and-bills-free that would already be £800 a month. If we got rid of the car and took insurance, upkeep and fuel out of the equation that would easily be closer to £1100. I'd also say that, realistically, if we dramatically tightened our belts we could easily save another £500 a month on top of that so that's £1100 a month without changing our lifestyle or £1600 a month if we became hermits.

And I'm certainly not "rich" or even that well off. Obviously the "living with parents" scenario isn't a realistic one with kids unless your parents have a mansion, BUT in theory, if we were a childless couple both working full time, we could live with parents and save that amount. It would be a nightmare but possible. I guess the point is - an absolutely massive chunk of most people's monthly budget is rent and utility bills. If you take those out of the equation, you actually can save a lot of money pretty quickly.

A friend of mine did it - him and his girlfriend (now wife) lived with her parents for nearly 2 years when they were in their mid 20's, and they were saving over £1000 a month for a deposit on a flat just with him on full time £9 an hour, and her 20-hours at minimum wage. And then they had a relative die and leave them over £70k which they used to buy a place outright so it was all pointless in the end ... ... lucky bastard...

Of course, ALL of this hinges on whether people have parents who are well off enough to have the space for it, who actually WANT to do it, and also where everyone gets along well. The reality is, most people just don't have that.

If you took out the car how would you get to work?... If I lived on a desert island and ate nothing but foraged nuts and berries I could pay my house off in 5yrs ... Let's try keep it real eh?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

As a couple... So there are two wages to consider now? I'm sure in cals calculation there was only one.

If we are discussing buying property why mention rental values?
You do have to clarify everything you say as you have intimated it's relatively simple ,even Sajid Javid knows it's nigh on impossible!


Sajid Javid pointed out that the average first-time buyer in London last year needed a deposit of more than £90,000.

'The communities secretary, Sajid Javid, has lambasted baby boomers who believe young people could afford a home if they cut back on nights out and avocados, saying such critics were out of touch with a broken housing system.

Javid warned that without urgent action to make homes more affordable, an entire generation could becomes rootless, and resentful of both capitalism and politicians.

His speech in Bristol came shortly after Theresa May visited a social housing estate in north London, as part of a concerted government push on the issue ahead of next week’s budget.

Javid had tough words for “baby boomers who have long since paid off their own mortgage” who believed there was no need to build more homes, saying they were “living in a different world”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...arket-avocados

dear God, do I really have to explain that, it people can afford that on rent, if they no longer rent they can afford to save it...


He is talking about Central London and probably a house!, you can get a one bed flat in the burbs for 225,000 upwards, we all have to start somewhere right? unless of course you want to move straight into your forever home, how much is a one bed in the suburbs of Leeds?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

If you took out the car how would you get to work?... If I lived on a desert island and ate nothing but foraged nuts and berries I could pay my house off in 5yrs ... Let's try keep it real eh?

OK so keep the car in the equation; if I removed my rent, utilities alone that's £800 a month, which means I could save up a £10k deposit in just over a year. I could also quite feasibly save another £50 a week (IF I didn't have kids) without really feeling it too much. How is that not "keeping it real"? Again I think you need to look properly at the graph, it's from your own telegraph link, and quite clearly shows that house prices related to income in MOST of the UK hasn't actually changed much at all since the 80's. It's only the London bubble where there is a real crisis in terms of the cost of property. Property prices across the rest of the UK aren't really the major problem. Increasing rent, increasing utilities ARE a problem because "being real" most adults CANNOT live with family, and therefore a huge chunk of their take home income goes on those things. Also, social housing stock is obviously a problem. Basically, the private rentals market and the council housing stock are ****ed. For those looking to buy, things are actually not that bad at all outside of that London bubble.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

If you took out the car how would you get to work?... If I lived on a desert island and ate nothing but foraged nuts and berries I could pay my house off in 5yrs ... Let's try keep it real eh?

He could get a bike, or a scooter

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

OK so keep the car in the equation; if I removed my rent, utilities alone that's £800 a month, which means I could save up a £10k deposit in just over a year. I could also quite feasibly save another £50 a week (IF I didn't have kids) without really feeling it too much. How is that not "keeping it real"? Again I think you need to look properly at the graph, it's from your own telegraph link, and quite clearly shows that house prices related to income in MOST of the UK hasn't actually changed much at all since the 80's. It's only the London bubble where there is a real crisis in terms of the cost of property. Property prices across the rest of the UK aren't really the major problem. Increasing rent, increasing utilities ARE a problem because "being real" most adults CANNOT live with family, and therefore a huge chunk of their take home income goes on those things. Also, social housing stock is obviously a problem. Basically, the private rentals market and the council housing stock are ****ed. For those looking to [i]buy[/i], things are actually not that bad at all outside of that London bubble.

We looked in Norwich to buy a flat for our son as he is studying there and likes the City, he could have got a studio for 70,000 ish or a one bed for 110,000 over a 25 year mortgage would be less than the rent he would pay to a landlord, still thinking about it... need to take a deep breath and close my eyes to do it though

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

He could get a bike, or a scooter

I have a bike . I've cycled it in summer when feeling particularly healthy, but it's 8 miles and not really doable at 11pm in winter .

Then again, if I moved in with my dad it would be about 40 miles and if I moved in with my in-laws it would be about 270 miles. I don't think my legs are up to a 540 mile round trip tbh . I'm not 20 any more.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I have a bike . I've cycled it in summer when feeling particularly healthy, but it's 8 miles and not really doable at 11pm in winter .

Then again, if I moved in with my dad it would be about 40 miles and if I moved in with my in-laws it would be about 270 miles. I don't think my legs are up to a 540 mile round trip tbh . I'm not 20 any more.

whats the matter with the youth of today

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

[/B]

We looked in Norwich to buy a flat for our son as he is studying there and likes the City, he could have got a studio for 70,000 ish or a one bed for 110,000 over a 25 year mortgage would be less than the rent he would pay to a landlord, still thinking about it... need to take a deep breath and close my eyes to do it though

I knew a few people at Uni whose parents bought property in the city for their kids to stay in. Dundee though so it's not very expensive. Most bought bigger places, 3 or 4 bedrooms, in their kids second year after they had friends from uni halls looking to rent - so basically the rent paid by the other students sharing would more or less cover the mortgage (plus the extra costs of being a landlord). After their kids graduated, some sold up and some kept the properties on as rental student accommodation.

Obviously not something that everyone is in a position to do, but for those who are in a financial position to be able to secure a decent mortgage, it makes a LOT of sense, especially with extra rooms to rent out.

[DemolitionRed]

The big problem is London, outer London and anything within a decent commuting distance of London. These areas all require a massive amount of blue collar workers and blue collar workers aren't going to bother with commuting fees when they can earn almost the same money working in the north. Why would blue collar workers cripple themselves with a 275k mortgage when they can have the same property in a different location for 75k? What this inevitably means is, we drive the workers we need in that area out of that area.

We need to forget about cheap buyable housing in London cos it aint going to happen. We recently had a new build of one and two-bed flats, built and advertised as affordable housing close to where we live. The one beds were put on the market for 275k and the 2 beds 300k. That isn't first time buyers affordable housing but its the best anyone's going to get if they want to remain in the same area they work.

We need more social housing in the London area. We need housing for the average blue collar wage earner because if we lose the labor, London will crumble.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I knew a few people at Uni whose parents bought property in the city for their kids to stay in. Dundee though so it's not very expensive. Most bought bigger places, 3 or 4 bedrooms, in their kids second year after they had friends from uni halls looking to rent - so basically the rent paid by the other students sharing would more or less cover the mortgage (plus the extra costs of being a landlord). After their kids graduated, some sold up and some kept the properties on as rental student accommodation.

Obviously not something that everyone is in a position to do, but for those who are in a financial position to be able to secure a decent mortgage, it makes a LOT of sense, especially with extra rooms to rent out.

I know it makes sense, I'm just need to take the leap

[user104658]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

We need to forget about cheap buyable housing in London cos it aint going to happen. We recently had a new build of one and two-bed flats, built and advertised as affordable housing close to where we live. The one beds were put on the market for 275k and the 2 beds 300k. That isn't first time buyers affordable housing but its the best anyone's going to get if they want to remain in the same area they work.

We need more social housing in the London area. We need housing for the average blue collar wage earner because if we lose the labor, London will crumble.

Are there no prisons? And the Union Workhouses... are they still in operation?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Are there no prisons? And the Union Workhouses... are they still in operation?

I can't wait for December so I can watch that again

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This is only really true in London & the SoE Kizzy... even the graph confirms that. Prices vs Income seem to be relatively stable otherwise, with the national average being skewed upwards by London + South. This graph from one of your own link confirms that:



In Scotland and the North, average prices have been hovering around 3 to 4 times average income since at least the early 80's. Obviously that also differs by area, e.g. Edinburgh can get very expensive, and the village I live in has basically no property under £100k, but the next village over has 2-bed flats going for £35k. Not particularly nice ones, but still. I've also seen 3 bed houses for as little as £45k, though admittedly they would need at least and other £10-15000 spent on them before living in them.

So that proves my point, and cals... if you were raised in London or the SE there is zero chance of buying a property there.
Of course there are good and bad places everywhere, the playing field is not level at all you have areas of high social deprivation and areas where house prices have sky rocketed. In the 80s fuel, utilities, travel and food was much less, therefore even if your home was double your annual wage you could afford to live... Now you cant.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

He could get a bike, or a scooter

And a triple sidecar for the wife and kids?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And a triple sidecar for the wife and kids?

sure why not

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

dear God, do I really have to explain that, it people can afford that on rent, if they no longer rent they can afford to save it...


He is talking about Central London and probably a house!, you can get a one bed flat in the burbs for 225,000 upwards, we all have to start somewhere right? unless of course you want to move straight into your forever home, how much is a one bed in the suburbs of Leeds?

Dear god... Where are they going to live while they save this 90k
with mummy and daddy?... as said not always an option.
I love the way you mention almost a quarter of a million pound for a one bed flat like its a bargain.
We obviously live in very different worlds Cherie, that's why I can see where cal comes from when suggesting it would take 100yrs to save for that if on your own commuting paying all your own utilities ...and you can't.

[user104658]

Well for one you're still pretty stuck on the London bubble which is misleading; you're making out that it's a national issue when it's very much a London issue. Secondly... 100 years to save 90k is clearly a massive exaggeration: that would be £75 a month. I don't think anyone who can only save £75 a month is in a position to be buying, no matter what the price...

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Dear god... Where are they going to live while they save this 90k
with mummy and daddy?... as said not always an option.
I love the way you mention almost a quarter of a million pound for a one bed flat like its a bargain.
We obviously live in very different worlds Cherie, that's why I can see where cal comes from when suggesting it would take 100yrs to save for that if on your own commuting paying all your own utilities ...and you can't.

it boils down to what you are used to 225,000 for a flat in London is a bargain! and you would need nowhere near a 90K deposit. I have asked youthe price to buy of a one bed in Leeds and am still waiting

I have already said a number of times living with parents isn't always an option though you seem very fixated on it, what about renting a room, when my neighbours moved into their house they rented a room to a couple with a baby to help them get some money to make renovations, I don't know where they put these people as there are 5 of them, but anyway they did it and they got the money for a new bathroom or whatever it was, that worked both ways the family got their new bathroom and the couple got a cheap room for a year, throwing your hands up in the air and saying it can't be done is no good to anyone, sort term pain for long term gain I suppose