[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Well... firstly, no, they were not the same men that have oppressed women over millennia. In much the same way that Britain is no longer an Empire, oppressing other countries but we're constantly reminded of our input... You only have to have a glance through Serious Debates to know that Britain is STILL accused of all kinds of stuff that happened before any of us was born... what we did in the Raj... what we did in Africa.... etc. etc. I don't see how it's different, really. People IN those countries don't want British people involved in affairs affecting their country. And in much the same way, although the men alive now have not oppressed women over millennia, I for one don't want men to be leading a discussion about feminism.

Of course, that doesn't mean I think men should not be involved in the discussion. We need men on board... but this is about women. And while most men are very supportive and thoughtful... you've only got to look at some of the aggression that surfaces, from some men, whenever there's a discussion about feminism and women's rights.

But it isn't about women, it's about equality, and stating that the pursuit of (any) equality is only about the historically disadvantaged side "of the scales" has more to do with addressing "past injury" than it does with achieving future equality. "An eye for an eye", "its our turn now and we can only have equality after we've had our turn" -type equality isn't the type of equality that anyone should be seeking... It isn't equality at all. I mean sure, acknowledge and address the fact that people have "lost eyes" in the past, acknowledge that it's wrong and regrettable, and then have everyone move forward together, progressively, to ensure that it doesn't continue happening. It's literally the only way things are going to improve... But, it so often seems to me that many people are far more concerned with having past grievances acknowledged than they are with preventing future grievances, and even at the EXPENSE of progress. "We have the right to be angry and hold grudges even if that anger makes things worse".

It makes me question the entire motive.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

But it isn't about women, it's about equality, and stating that the pursuit of (any) equality is only about the historically disadvantaged side "of the scales" has more to do with addressing "past injury" than it does with achieving future equality. "An eye for an eye", "its our turn now and we can only have equality after we've had our turn" -type equality isn't the type of equality that anyone should be seeking... It isn't equality at all. I mean sure, acknowledge and address the fact that people have "lost eyes" in the past, acknowledge that it's wrong and regrettable, and then have everyone move forward together, progressively, to ensure that it doesn't continue happening. It's literally the only way things are going to improve... But, it so often seems to me that many people are far more concerned with having past grievances acknowledged than they are with preventing future grievances, and even at the EXPENSE of progress. "We have the right to be angry and hold grudges even if that anger makes things worse".

It makes me question the entire motive.

It's about WOMENS equality. Men have been more than equal for a long time. And women don't need men to lead us on this. But we do need your support.

I honestly don't see how anything else you've said relates to what I said.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Have the women who are part of the discussion today been oppressed by the men who are part of the discussion today for millenia? This part always confuses me; this idea that "women" and "men" are some sort of cohesive sentient entity with a memory stretching back beyond the lifespan of the individual. It doesn't really make sense.

That's not to say the millenia of oppression doesn't still affect society today; it does in many ways and that's something that society as a whole needs to address. But the fact is, many (most) of the men who are part of the discussion today have never oppressed anyone in any way, and so the idea that they should be excluded from the discussion of achieving equality is ludicrous and entirely misses the point. Of course men shouldn't lead or dominate the discussion, but nor should women lead or dominate the discussion... And anyone who thinks they should, frankly, is not seeking equality.

Clearly we have come a very long way although still some parts of the world have not and are a reminder of what life would have been like for a woman years ago.

But it's almost like some peoples attitudes are, well you can vote and drive now so shut up. Women face sexism and are treated like we are less than men every bloody day, alot of men do this, probably without even realising most of the time, going to buy a car and the salesman speaks to your husband rather than you eventhough you're the one buying the car, always being asked to make the coffee over male co-workers, as a teenager being warned against having boyfriends when boys your age are encouraged and lauded for the same thing, the list goes on. It's so ingrained in peoples heads they don't even realise they're doing it most of the time and these examples seem small and stupid but they all add up and over time are so ****ing belittling and infuriating. Maybe you've never done any of those things which is great but that doesn't mean they don't happen everyday.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Clearly we have come a very long way although still some parts of the world have not and are a reminder of what life would have been like for a woman years ago.

But it's almost like some peoples attitudes are, well you can vote and drive now so shut up. Women face sexism and are treated like we are less than men every bloody day, alot of men do this, probably without even realising most of the time, going to buy a car and the salesman speaks to your husband rather than you eventhough you're the one buying the car, always being asked to make the coffee over male co-workers, as a teenager being warned against having boyfriends when boys your age are encouraged and lauded for the same thing, the list goes on. It's so ingrained in peoples heads they don't even realise they're doing it most of the time and these examples seem small and stupid but they all add up and over time are so ****ing belittling and infuriating. Maybe you've never done any of those things which is great but that doesn't mean they don't happen everyday.

Also a great post.

You two can put my thoughts so much better than I can

Definitely yes to the 'the law is equal, shut up, we are equal now' stuff. Yes the law is equal. treatment however, is not and much discrimination still exists...every day.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Clearly we have come a very long way although still some parts of the world have not and are a reminder of what life would have been like for a woman years ago.

But it's almost like some peoples attitudes are, well you can vote and drive now so shut up. Women face sexism and are treated like we are less than men every bloody day, alot of men do this, probably without even realising most of the time, going to buy a car and the salesman speaks to your husband rather than you eventhough you're the one buying the car, always being asked to make the coffee over male co-workers, as a teenager being warned against having boyfriends when boys your age are encouraged and lauded for the same thing, the list goes on. It's so ingrained in peoples heads they don't even realise they're doing it most of the time and these examples seem small and stupid but they all add up and over time are so ****ing belittling and infuriating. Maybe you've never done any of those things which is great but that doesn't mean they don't happen everyday.

Very true - it has been and still is a substantial part of all women’s lives. There are the smaller ways as you mention in your post and the larger ways such as sexual assault and murder.

I found it interesting that in an article posted on here recently it stated that there had been 23 murders of self-identified transwomen/men as opposed to 1600 women by men in the same time period. That says a lot.

[montblanc]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Clearly we have come a very long way although still some parts of the world have not and are a reminder of what life would have been like for a woman years ago.

But it's almost like some peoples attitudes are, well you can vote and drive now so shut up. Women face sexism and are treated like we are less than men every bloody day, alot of men do this, probably without even realising most of the time, going to buy a car and the salesman speaks to your husband rather than you eventhough you're the one buying the car, always being asked to make the coffee over male co-workers, as a teenager being warned against having boyfriends when boys your age are encouraged and lauded for the same thing, the list goes on. It's so ingrained in peoples heads they don't even realise they're doing it most of the time and these examples seem small and stupid but they all add up and over time are so ****ing belittling and infuriating. Maybe you've never done any of those things which is great but that doesn't mean they don't happen everyday.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Clearly we have come a very long way although still some parts of the world have not and are a reminder of what life would have been like for a woman years ago.

But it's almost like some peoples attitudes are, well you can vote and drive now so shut up. Women face sexism and are treated like we are less than men every bloody day, alot of men do this, probably without even realising most of the time, going to buy a car and the salesman speaks to your husband rather than you eventhough you're the one buying the car, always being asked to make the coffee over male co-workers, as a teenager being warned against having boyfriends when boys your age are encouraged and lauded for the same thing, the list goes on. It's so ingrained in peoples heads they don't even realise they're doing it most of the time and these examples seem small and stupid but they all add up and over time are so ****ing belittling and infuriating. Maybe you've never done any of those things which is great but that doesn't mean they don't happen everyday.

Great post, and I think the bit in bold is very true of most discussions about equality. But yeah this really is what feminism is about for me, not necessarily needing to make big changes (in terms of laws and things) but reinforcing general values, and I think that's where the thoughts of "women already have rights so if they want more then they want to be more than equal" come in because it misunderstands that continued feminism isn't about more and more rights, like the rights are there because they need to be in order to get to a place of equal treatment, as the foundations of it I suppose, but equal treatment still isn't always happening.
As an example I used to help with the recruitment in a company I worked for and my boss would favour male applicants because she had sexist views about men being better workers (and also having to pay for womens maternity leave etc, it was a relatively small business so she would consider the potential costs of that) and really there is no way of stopping someone like that filtering applications accordingly to their prejudice, marking someone more harshly during an interview, etc etc. (I think this is a good example as well as to it not being a men vs women thing in terms of feminism.) She'd also be harsher in general to the female employees when they made mistakes. And equal rights laws being in place isn't actually going to change someone like that's attitudes.
And I think feminism should include areas where men receive poorer treatment than women as well since it's all part of the same thing which is essentially prejudice based on gender and that can come from both men and women, and be directed towards both men and women. There might be more of it directed towards women from men so there's generally more of a focus on that but that shouldn't be a reason to exclude any other issues that arise from gender inequality, like TS says it should be a cooperative thing.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Great post, and I think the bit in bold is very true of most discussions about equality. But yeah this really is what feminism is about for me, not necessarily needing to make big changes (in terms of laws and things) but reinforcing general values, and I think that's where the thoughts of "women already have rights so if they want more then they want to be more than equal" come in because it misunderstands that continued feminism isn't about more and more rights, like the rights are there because they need to be in order to get to a place of equal treatment, as the foundations of it I suppose, but equal treatment still isn't always happening.
As an example I used to help with the recruitment in a company I worked for and my boss would favour male applicants because she had sexist views about men being better workers (and also having to pay for womens maternity leave etc, it was a relatively small business so she would consider the potential costs of that) and really there is no way of stopping someone like that filtering applications accordingly to their prejudice, marking someone more harshly during an interview, etc etc. (I think this is a good example as well as to it not being a men vs women thing in terms of feminism.) She'd also be harsher in general to the female employees when they made mistakes. And equal rights laws being in place isn't actually going to change someone like that's attitudes.
And I think feminism should include areas where men receive poorer treatment than women as well since it's all part of the same thing which is essentially prejudice based on gender and that can come from both men and women, and be directed towards both men and women. There might be more of it directed towards women from men so there's generally more of a focus on that but that shouldn't be a reason to exclude any other issues that arise from gender inequality, like TS says it should be a cooperative thing.

Yeah women can be just as guilty of the sexist attitudes as men 100%.

Oh another example of the negative stereotyping being enforced and validated is when we're driving and on the journey we might come across 4 drivers who will have done something to annoy Gav and 2 of them might be male and the other two female, when it's the male driver it's because they're an idiot but when it's a female it's because she's a female. It's this kind of thing that keeps all these stereotypes and attitudes going in society.

I've seen a few people say that we shouldn't be thinking like we have a hive mind and that we're all individuals etc which I don't disagree with, infact it's absolutely what I believe on a personal level, this is why I get so annoyed about everyday sexism and the pushing of these negative stereotypes

[Underscore]

I am an intersectional feminist and believe that feminism is more than just gender equality. It's using equity to achieve equality too.

[BBUK-Fan]

Feminism is a load of women that take things too far and try to trash men. Feminists are just a hate group really and say it's all equality but it's trashing men

[Underscore]

Originally Posted by BBUK-Fan

Feminism is a load of women that take things too far and try to trash men. Feminists are just a hate group really and say it's all equality but it's trashing men

men are trash

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by BBUK-Fan

Feminism is a load of women that take things too far and try to trash men. Feminists are just a hate group really and say it's all equality but it's trashing men

That sounds distinctly sexist. Sounds rather like LBTG groups who take things too far and try to trash women and their rights and other anti-discrimination groups who take things too far and try to trash the opinions of others to me. You can’t logically single out feminist groups over other such groups.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

That sounds distinctly sexist. Sounds rather like LBTG groups who take things too far and try to trash women and their rights and other anti-discrimination groups who take things too far and try to trash the opinions of others to me. You can’t logically single out feminist groups over other such groups.

Basically "you cant hate feminists, other anti-discrimation groups are worse"

Youre both as clueless as each other.

[Underscore]

Originally Posted by Withano

Basically "you cant hate feminists, other anti-discrimation groups are worse"

Youre both as clueless as each other.

.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

Basically "you cant hate feminists, other anti-discrimation groups are worse"

Youre both as clueless as each other.

Yes you are if you can’t see that such extremism applies to all.

You can’t single out one and not another, not hate, why do some love to label that way, but not all only some. I smell a rat.

[ethanjames]

Originally Posted by BBUK-Fan

Feminism is a load of women that take things too far and try to trash men. Feminists are just a hate group really and say it's all equality but it's trashing men

when you clearly no nothing about feminism

[LukeB]

Originally Posted by BBUK-Fan

Feminism is a load of women that take things too far and try to trash men. Feminists are just a hate group really and say it's all equality but it's trashing men

[RileyH]

Originally Posted by LukeB

[Niamh.]

It feels like some men, alot of men actually, are scared of women becoming "too equal" men I never would have thought would act like that as well. I'm not quite sure where that fear comes from or what they're afraid of though? I do understand though in some situations balancing things on one side can make things unbalanced on the other. Like fathers rights for example, that's certainly a place where men(fathers) are unequal and that needs addressing. I consider myself to be a feminist and tackling Fathers rights (or lack of them) would also fall under feminism imo

[Tom4784]

It's a common theme when it comes to certain people in most majorities that they misunderstand equality for dominance, you'll find people like that in every majority. It's just a complete and utter lack of understanding and empathy, essentially because they've deluded themselves into thinking that equality is a thing because they don't suffer any kind of discrimination so it's not a thing for anyone else either. They'll look at things like Feminism, pride and LGBT, Black Lives Matters etc as tipping the scales against them because they just don't understand discrimination because they have never experienced it.

Their idea of equality for those kinds of people is having a majorityand them being that majority so they find the idea of actual equality to be nothing more than an attack on them when it's just balancing the scales that have always been tipped in their favour.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's a common theme when it comes to certain people in most majorities that they misunderstand equality for dominance, you'll find people like that in every majority. It's just a complete and utter lack of understanding and empathy, essentially because they've deluded themselves into thinking that equality is a thing because they don't suffer any kind of discrimination so it's not a thing for anyone else either. They'll look at things like Feminism, pride and LGBT, Black Lives Matters etc as tipping the scales against them because they just don't understand discrimination because they have never experienced it.

Their idea of equality for those kinds of people is having a majorityand them being that majority so they find the idea of actual equality to be nothing more than an attack on them when it's just balancing the scales that have always been tipped in their favour.

You think most women haven’t experienced discrimination - I have on several occasions. It always has been and still is to a degree a part of every woman’s life. Discrimination is not exclusive to minority groups. It shows how much you know if that is what you are trying to say.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You think most women haven’t experienced discrimination - I have on several occasions. It always has been and still is to a degree a part of every woman’s life. Discrimination is not exclusive to minority groups. It shows how much you know if that is what you are trying to say.

Okay, you haven't read my post at all, have you?

I'm saying that the idea of men seeing gender equality as an attack on themselves is something that is common to certain people in all majorities because the idea of equality those people have are warped. I'm not saying that women haven't faced discrimination.

Jesus Christ, Brillo. Please at least to attempt to read a post before you respond to it because nothing you have said has any relevance on what I have said at all.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Okay, you haven't read my post at all, have you?

I'm saying that the idea of men seeing gender equality as an attack on themselves is something that is common to certain people in all majorities because the idea of equality those people have are warped. I'm not saying that women haven't faced discrimination.

Jesus Christ, Brillo. Please at least to attempt to read a post before you respond to it because nothing you have said has any relevance on what I have said at all.

Have and do still despite making up 50 % of the population in most counties. I don’t think there is any other single group that can say that as women have and are still the most discriminated against worldwide.

Also, many of those who you see as a discriminated minority in this country have not been, as well as have been, in a previous country - but members of both groups still continue to discriminate against other groups here.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You think most women haven’t experienced discrimination - I have on several occasions. It always has been and still is to a degree a part of every woman’s life. Discrimination is not exclusive to minority groups. It shows how much you know if that is what you are trying to say.

Its part of every mans life as well. We all get discriminated against at some point in our life. Its no big deal, we aren't victims. Its not constant.

Feminism isn't the issue, extremism is. Extreme feminism makes me embarrassed to be a woman and all I can say is, thank god they're a minority. The extreme feminists have ruined the very essence of what feminism is meant to be about. They've hijacked something good and made it into something that's now demonized by both men and women. I'm a feminist but I'm often embarrassed to claim that title.

When I hear women ranting about Barbie belittling women I want to bang these womens head together… its just a toy! When I read a bunch of women belittling men or claiming 'men don't know the awful time us women have. They don't know what its like to bleed or give birth', I just sigh and think, geez, you must hate being female.
This is meant to be about gender equality but sometimes it feels like its all about punishing men.

[Alf]

Why don't we settle this with a good old fashioned scrap?

We'd batter you!