[Kizzy]

I'm really conflicted by this TTIP malarkey, it's some real ' new world order' shiz.

[bots]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I'm voting out for other reasons but if it wasn't for the TTIP deal, I would definitely be voting to stay in. Since the EU was formed, there have been few conflicts and no wars within European Union. If you look at the early to mid 20th century compared to the late 20th century and early 21st century, Europe became far more peaceful after the union was formed.

The thing that worries me most about staying in europe is the prospect of Turkey getting membership. It will skew the entire dynamic in 100 different fundamental ways, none of them for the better. From what I can see its pretty much a done deal. That issue alone outweighs all other factors and has me balanced more toward out than in.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The thing that worries me most about staying in europe is the prospect of Turkey getting membership. It will skew the entire dynamic in 100 different fundamental ways, none of them for the better. From what I can see its pretty much a done deal. That issue alone outweighs all other factors and has me balanced more toward out than in.

People have been saying Turkey will join for years, I don't think its closer now than it was twenty years ago. Cameron has emphatically said it won't happen anytime soon and there will be similar levels of opposition across the EU.

[bots]

Originally Posted by MTVN

People have been saying Turkey will join for years, I don't think its closer now than it was twenty years ago. Cameron has emphatically said it won't happen anytime soon and there will be similar levels of opposition across the EU.

there were negotiations over the refugee crisis and refugees being returned to Turkey. Part of that deal was to fast track Turkeys integration into Europe. If the UK has a veto all well and good, but not so long ago Blair was championing their joining, so there is even in the UK those that want it to happen.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

there were negotiations over the refugee crisis and refugees being returned to Turkey. Part of that deal was to fast track Turkeys integration into Europe. If the UK has a veto all well and good, but not so long ago Blair was championing their joining, so there is even in the UK those that want it to happen.

Turkey might be able to secure visa free travel for its citizens but that would be dependent on them meeting a lot of conditions and would only apply to the schengen area in any case, not the UK. This is what Cameron said about it the other day:

"I will be absolutely frank with you, I don't think the accession of Turkey to the European Union is remotely on the cards. I don't think it will happen for decades.

"If you look at the facts, the facts are that it requires unanimity of all European members. The French, for instance, have said they'd have a referendum on it.

"I would say very clearly to people, if your vote in this referendum is being influenced by considerations about Turkish membership of the EU, don't think about it. It's not remotely on the cards. It's not an issue in this referendum and it shouldn't be."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36205844

This article also makes clear how difficult it'd be for Turkey to join the EU: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35832035

[bots]

thanks, i will look into that further.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by MTVN

People have been saying Turkey will join for years, I don't think its closer now than it was twenty years ago. Cameron has emphatically said it won't happen anytime soon and there will be similar levels of opposition across the EU.

Absolutely MTVN, also all the other EU Nations have as to agree to a new member too and that seems as far away for Turkey as possible as you rightly put it, anytime soon.

I would guess some deal may eventually be done with Turkey as a sweetener but not full EU membership.
the same with the TTIP deal, it has to be ratified by all the EU Nations, if we stay in, ourselves being one of them.
However that too seems doomed to failure too as to getting ratified, when it is, or even if ever, it's even concluded and presented to the EU Nations at all.

[_Tom_]

Sky News will hold the first live Brexit TV debate with Cameron and Gove facing questions from journalists and the public:

http://news.sky.com/story/1694517/ca...ws-on-sky-news

[the truth]

Have you all registered to vote in this and why should we have to when we are already registered to vote for elections? STINKS

[the truth]

https://www.gov.uk/register-to-

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by the truth

Have you all registered to vote in this and why should we have to when we are already registered to vote for elections? STINKS

If you were registered to vote in the May elections and are already on the electoral role you don't need to reregister

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Cherie

If you were registered to vote in the May elections and are already on the electoral role you don't need to reregister

That's what I was told too Cherie.

[bots]

i re-registered just to be sure

[joeysteele]

Incredible that Boris Johnson can get away with not a bit of criticism for invoking the name of Hitler in the campaign and get little comeback as to it.
What a mess of a politician he is,I would dare bet had Cameron actually recommended leaving, Johnson would have campaigned to remain in.
All he is doing is gearing up to challenge Cameron as leader and PM,that gets clearer to see for me every time he speaks.

How ridiculous and gutter like to compare the EU to Hitler and his regime, a man,regime and force that wanted to seek out, round up people,displace them from the nations they were in and mass murder them because of creed,race or sexual orientation.
What a pathetic,unnecessary and inflammatory comparison.

However on the other side, David Cameron warning of possible conflicts in Europe if we leave.
I agree with the few who have said on TV, if it is really this dangerous to leave,why on earth has a govt been so irresponsible in even holding a referendum on such a dangerous action as to even just possibly leaving,never mind being likely to.

On such an important decision as the day gets nearer to the vote,this campaign rather than being made better by both sides is going further down to the gutter to score points.
With the real undecided voters,getting utter nonsense and extreme comparisons thrown at them all the time.
Totally ridiculous.

The one sure thing for me is, whatever the result of this referendum,it will never be the 'right' result,in or out, because it will not have come from a reasoned,informative and accurately factual presentation of staying 'in' or the alternative of 'out'.
Shocking performances from both and in fact all sides.

The whole thing has become a total farce and that's simply disgraceful.

[bots]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Incredible that Boris Johnson can get away with not a bit of criticism for invoking the name of Hitler in the campaign and get little comeback as to it.
What a mess of a politician he is,I would dare bet had Cameron actually recommended leaving, Johnson would have campaigned to remain in.
All he is doing is gearing up to challenge Cameron as leader and PM,that gets clearer to see for me every time he speaks.

How ridiculous and gutter like to compare the EU to Hitler and his regime, a man,regime and force that wanted to seek out, round up people,displace them from the nations they were in and mass murder them because of creed,race or sexual orientation.
What a pathetic,unnecessary and inflammatory comparison.

However on the other side, David Cameron warning of possible conflicts in Europe if we leave.
I agree with the few who have said on TV, if it is really this dangerous to leave,why on earth has a govt been so irresponsible in even holding a referendum on such a dangerous action as to even just possibly leaving,never mind being likely to.

On such an important decision as the day gets nearer to the vote,this campaign rather than being made better by both sides is going further down to the gutter to score points.
With the real undecided voters,getting utter nonsense and extreme comparisons thrown at them all the time.
Totally ridiculous.

The one sure thing for me is, whatever the result of this referendum,it will never be the 'right' result,in or out, because it will not have come from a reasoned,informative and accurately factual presentation of staying 'in' or the alternative of 'out'.
Shocking performances from both and in fact all sides.

The whole thing has become a total farce and that's simply disgraceful.

I agree with this, although there have been quite a few now that have rubbished Boris's comment. I do wonder what these live debates will be like. After months of misinformation on both sides, with just over a month to go, i can't see it improving. It is a shambles. I'm wavering back to staying in again. The number of knowledgeable voices now saying it would be madness to leave is becoming hard to ignore.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I agree with this, although there have been quite a few now that have rubbished Boris's comment. I do wonder what these live debates will be like. After months of misinformation on both sides, with just over a month to go, i can't see it improving. It is a shambles. I'm wavering back to staying in again. The number of knowledgeable voices now saying it would be madness to leave is becoming hard to ignore.

That swung it for me before any campaigning began.
I myself cannot see the point of risking anything as to how and where the UK is now.

I was stunned when Ian Duncan Smith yesterday said there, in effect, would be a downside to the economy for a couple of years if we left ,and although growth would probably continue,it would not be as good as it would have been if we were still in.

Not good enough for me, anyone knows,once you have an economy that goes down and there is weaker growth, that affects a lot for a good while to come.
A weaker growth and a downturn in the economy for a couple of years, would take us way behind where we should and could be.
Furthermore in my view after that couple of years,it could take anything from a further 2 to 3 years to even just try to get back to where we are now.

I am not prepared to risk the UKs more secured and successful status that is already in place now, for at least 2 years or probably more,heading down a bit into the doldrums.

[bots]

Farage is now saying that if the referendum result is not out and the vote is close, then there will be another vote

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Farage is now saying that if the referendum result is not out and the vote is close, then there will be another vote

What a pathetic statement from him,why only if its a narrow result to remain should there be another vote, that sounds like someone expecting to lose now to me.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Farage is now saying that if the referendum result is not out and the vote is close, then there will be another vote

He can pay for it then I bet he wouldn't agree if out narrowly win

[MTVN]

Least he is saying it before the referendum I guess rather than only after they've lost

[Alf]

Slavery always makes a comeback, just look through the history books, still, we had a good little run of liberty and democracy, but it was never gonna last, because people in power like to control.

[arista]

Daily Politics
Andrew Neil is telling the TUC Women
that loads of Europe workers
are taking lower pay
that effects us.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i re-registered just to be sure

Good thing you did, a friend of mine checked too and found for some reason he was not on the register.
Perhaps if anyone hasn't voted for a while or who had no elections in their area this time round in the local elections,they should check to make sure too.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by arista

Daily Politics
Andrew Neil is telling the TUC Women
that loads of Europe workers
are taking lower pay
that effects us.

That's a little inaccurate. Foreign nationals are taking lower paid jobs not lower pay (no lower than the Brits taking lower paid jobs).

The economist claims it doesn't affect us but is being used in the Brexit campaign because its what the naive man in the street will pick up on.

[Kizzy]

No I think he's right, employers are recruiting via agencies abroad to avoid paying minimum wage.

'Official figures suggest that around 300,000 workers in Britain, often from overseas, are paid below the National Minimum Wage. But there have been hardly any successful prosecutions for breaking this law in the past three years'

'There is a loophole in the laws around agency work which allows firms to avoid paying agency workers at the same rates as directly employed staff. This is being used in sectors where levels of employment from abroad are high, such as food production, and now accounts for as many as one in six of those employed by agencies.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...e-9039081.html
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...rs-living-wage