[Alf]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I find it amusing (in a sad way) that theres 'no magic money tree' that could give nurses a payrise so they don't need to use foodbanks, but there is a magic money tree that created 1b to keep May in power

There wouldn't be no food banks with Corbyn, they'd just starve to death instead.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Alf

There wouldn't be no food banks with Corbyn, they'd just starve to death instead.

How do you reckon that?

I find it disgraceful that in a rich country we have so many going to foodbanks tbh. And yes they existed under labour too but they weren't used in such high numbers. Noone who is working should ever have to use a foodbank IMO

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

How do you reckon that?

I find it disgraceful that in a rich country we have so many going to foodbanks tbh. And yes they existed under labour too but they weren't used in such high numbers. Noone who is working should ever have to use a foodbank IMO

That's the usually outcome in any communist country. History tells us that.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I find it amusing (in a sad way) that theres 'no magic money tree' that could give nurses a payrise so they don't need to use foodbanks, but there is a magic money tree that created 1b to keep May in power

It's difficult, are you saying that Northern Ireland doesn't need the investment? Because I'm pretty sure it does. Any windfall is pretty good for that part of the UK.

I'm a little sceptical about the whole nurses and food banks thing, this seems like some kind of spin to me. A fully qualified nurse earns £22 - 28,000 pa (actually I think its more like up to 35k) that's a fairly decent wage by most pay standards. I know plenty of people in that pay scale who don't have to use food banks. I'm not saying nurses, paramedics, police officers, fire fighters don't deserve pay rises but I think this issue is losing perspective. Peoples circumstances are all different and to say 'nurses need to use food banks' is not taking into account any of the personal circumstances around that.

I find it disgraceful in 2017 that there are people living rough on the streets but again people have circumstances and we don't always know what they are and how they came to be there, it's easy to blame the government.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

It's difficult, are you saying that Northern Ireland doesn't need the investment? Because I'm pretty sure it does. Any windfall is pretty good for that part of the UK.

I'm a little sceptical about the whole nurses and food banks thing, this seems like some kind of spin to me. A fully qualified nurse earns £22 - 28,000 pa that's a fairly decent wage by most pay standards. I know plenty of people in that pay scale who don't have to use food banks. I'm not saying nurses, paramedics, police officers, fire fighters don't deserve pay rises but I think this issue is losing perspective.

How are you sure, what do you know about NI that makes you sure?

But you are skeptical about nurses because 22k is a 'decent wage'? Is it... Lets have a breakdown for expenses for the average nurse, lets say those who were treating the Grenfell victims. How far does their 22k go?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

How are you sure, what do you know about NI that makes you sure?

But you are skeptical about nurses because 22k is a 'decent wage'? Is it... Lets have a breakdown for expenses for the average nurse, lets say those who were treating the Grenfell victims. How far does their 22k go?

I know enough about NI to form an opinion, thanks. You can learn more if you read or make some friends that live there.

You go right ahead if you want to break down some expenses, far be it from me to stop you.

Why are you using Grenfall victims for your political agenda? That's pretty low IMO.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I know enough about NI to form an opinion, thanks. You can learn more if you read or make some friends that live there.

You go right ahead if you want to break down some expenses, far be it from me to stop you.

Why are you using Grenfall victims for your political agenda? That's pretty low IMO.

Well help the rest of us out then who have no clue how NI is funded.. How is it comparable to say Scotland or Wales in terms of expenditure per head of the population?...

I am using Grenfell as an example as the nurses were based in London and it's well documented how well and how efficient the response was by those hospitals and yet they are denied a raise and in effect being accused of lying that they are finding it difficult to manage on the salary they receive. That is pretty low... imo

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

It's difficult, are you saying that Northern Ireland doesn't need the investment? Because I'm pretty sure it does. Any windfall is pretty good for that part of the UK.

I'm a little sceptical about the whole nurses and food banks thing, this seems like some kind of spin to me. A fully qualified nurse earns £22 - 28,000 pa (actually I think its more like up to 35k) that's a fairly decent wage by most pay standards. I know plenty of people in that pay scale who don't have to use food banks. I'm not saying nurses, paramedics, police officers, fire fighters don't deserve pay rises but I think this issue is losing perspective. Peoples circumstances are all different and to say 'nurses need to use food banks' is not taking into account any of the personal circumstances around that.

I find it disgraceful in 2017 that there are people living rough on the streets but again people have circumstances and we don't always know what they are and how they came to be there, it's easy to blame the government.

No. everywhere in the UK needs investment tbh.

I just find it funny that there is no money for anything, but May can pull a billion out of her arse at the drop of a hat. Kind of like how theres no money for the NHS and so but we have plenty of money for bombs and airstrikes to other countries

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

No. everywhere in the UK needs investment tbh.

I just find it funny that there is no money for anything, but May can pull a billion out of her arse at the drop of a hat. Kind of like how theres no money for the NHS and so but we have plenty of money for bombs and airstrikes to other countries

Well May is desperate. She has very badly miscalculated and lost her majority. It's not that funny really, of course she is going to find some money to get her out of the doo doo if she can. I will be very surprised if she survives 6 months. The bottom line is that we do have a large deficit so don't really have plenty money for any gov to spend and that's bad news for all of us but I suspect an awful lot of money is wasted. The problem is that with no rosy coloured glasses on, we aren't going to be in a better position with Labour and they probably wouldn't behave any differently were they in the same position. There is really no Corbyn on a white charger. There is just another shambles with a slightly different set of priorities.

What we really need right now is some stability.

[user104658]

I'm sorry if this is harsh (and I know it is, maybe, a little harsh) but... the pain of his experiences is exactly why I personally don't think there's much point in debating with jet on the subjects of N.I. / the DUP / Corbyn etc... the emotion level there is clearly very high and there is just no objectivity. I did say that to jet I think on probably the first or second day after the DUP deal was suggested as some initially very balanced and informative posts quickly went sideways when old anger / emotions were stirred up.

Now I will say it is 100% understandable for people to have strong emotions attached to these things. No one is a robot, we all have our pressure points. However the chance of there being any sort of reasoned, balanced and grounded discussion on the subject with someone so heavily involved on a personal level is pretty much zero.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm sorry if this is harsh (and I know it is, maybe, a little harsh) but... the pain of his experiences is exactly why I personally don't think there's much point in debating with jet on the subjects of N.I. / the DUP / Corbyn etc... the emotion level there is clearly very high and there is just no objectivity. I did say that to jet I think on probably the first or second day after the DUP deal was suggested as some initially very balanced and informative posts quickly went sideways when old anger / emotions were stirred up.

Now I will say it is 100% understandable for people to have strong emotions attached to these things. No one is a robot, we all have our pressure points. However the chance of there being any sort of reasoned, balanced and grounded discussion on the subject with someone so heavily involved on a personal level is pretty much zero.

I disagree with you TS, I think that is unfair. You are clearly passionate about some subjects but no one here patronises you and suggests you are too emotional to discuss it.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I disagree with you TS, I think that is unfair. You are clearly passionate about some subjects but no one here patronises you and suggests you are too emotional to discuss it.

I can freely admit that I have pressure-subjects that I can't be objective about. The first (and main one) is alcohol / alcoholism, another is probably autism, though I can mostly keep a level head on that one. I'm not saying I don't or wouldn't discuss those subjects but in all honesty my opinions, especially when it comes to alcohol, are always going to be skewed and I wouldn't pretend otherwise.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm sorry if this is harsh (and I know it is, maybe, a little harsh) but... the pain of his experiences is exactly why I personally don't think there's much point in debating with jet on the subjects of N.I. / the DUP / Corbyn etc... the emotion level there is clearly very high and there is just no objectivity. I did say that to jet I think on probably the first or second day after the DUP deal was suggested as some initially very balanced and informative posts quickly went sideways when old anger / emotions were stirred up.

Now I will say it is 100% understandable for people to have strong emotions attached to these things. No one is a robot, we all have our pressure points. However the chance of there being any sort of reasoned, balanced and grounded discussion on the subject with someone so heavily involved on a personal level is pretty much zero.

Maybe the reason you think I had no objectivity is because you didn't want to believe what I was saying, pure and simple, and that goes for not just you but for everyone who thinks they know better than someone who lived here and knew of Corbyn personally and his activities in the 70's and beyond when most of you didn't know the man from Adam. Why the hell would I bother to post untruths? I have never participated in political discussions here regarding Cons/Labour as I have no interest or loyalty to either party. A simple search will verify that. So do you think I suddenly appeared in Serious Debates to run down Corbyn because I don't like his dress sense or whatever?

Don't tell me I couldn't have a reasoned, balanced and grounded discussion when everything I said was met with a brick wall of disdain and dismissal, and in some cases twisted (not by you in this instance, but by Dezzy ) to create a diversion so he/she didn't have to respond in a reasoned, balanced and grounded way to my posts.

And this is not for you TS, (unless I've missed your references to it) but for those of you who begrudge the 1billion windfall - can you not forget May and her motives and be just a little tolerant that it's going to a part of your country that suffered decades of bombing leading to the loss of thousands of lives, homes and businesses and still hasn't recovered?

Jeez, I never wanted a United Ireland, but the way some of you are talking about my beloved N.Ireland, (which is a beautiful and friendly place, despite it's history), as if it's a piece of **** on the map, I'm not sure I want to be a part of the UK any more. If some posters on this forum are representative of UK mindsets (and I would hope not) you clearly have no feeling or empathy or any understanding whatsoever for this part of your country.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by jet

Maybe the reason you think I had no objectivity is because you didn't want to believe what I was saying, pure and simple, and that goes for not just you but for everyone who thinks they know better than someone who lived here and knew of Corbyn personally and his activities in the 70's and beyond when most of you didn't know the man from Adam. Why the hell would I bother to post untruths? I have never participated in political discussions here regarding Cons/Labour as I have no interest or loyalty to either party. A simple search will verify that. So do you think I suddenly appeared in Serious Debates to run down Corbyn because I don't like his dress sense or whatever?

Don't tell me I couldn't have a reasoned, balanced and grounded discussion when everything I said was met with a brick wall of disdain and dismissal, and in some cases twisted (not by you in this instance, but by Dezzy ) to create a diversion so he/she didn't have to respond in a reasoned, balanced and grounded way to my posts.

And this is not for you TS, (unless I've missed your references to it) but for those of you who begrudge the 1billion windfall - can you not forget May and her motives and be just a little tolerant that it's going to a part of your country that suffered decades of bombing leading to the loss of thousands of lives, homes and businesses and still hasn't recovered?

Jeez, I never wanted a United Ireland, but the way some of you are talking about my beloved N.Ireland, (which is a beautiful and friendly place, despite it's history), as if it's a piece of **** on the map, I'm not sure I want to be a part of the UK any more. If some posters on this forum are representative of UK mindsets (and I would hope not) you clearly have no feeling or empathy or any understanding whatsoever for this part of your country.

I'm delighted for NI that it is getting this investment, the DUP much as I don't agree with their views and policies have seen an opportunity and grabbed it with both hands to improve their country, that is what we all expect the party in power to do

[jet]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I'm delighted for NI that it is getting this investment, the DUP much as I don't agree with their views and policies have seen an opportunity and grabbed it with both hands to improve their country, that is what we all expect the party in power to do

Absolutely.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I'm delighted for NI that it is getting this investment, the DUP much as I don't agree with their views and policies have seen an opportunity and grabbed it with both hands to improve their country, that is what we all expect the party in power to do

Of course I don't blame the DUP for grabbing this chance.

And no doubt NI does need a lot of investment.

My issue is solely with us being repeatedly told there 'is no money' and then May managing to find this amount for her to cling onto power.

Can;t blame the DUP for wanting the best for NI. Much like you cannot really blame Sturgeon for her constant wanting of better for the Scottish than the rest of the UK get.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Of course I don't blame the DUP for grabbing this chance.

And no doubt NI does need a lot of investment.

My issue is solely with us being repeatedly told there 'is no money' and then May managing to find this amount for her to cling onto power.

Can;t blame the DUP for wanting the best for NI. Much like you cannot really blame Sturgeon for her constant wanting of better for the Scottish than the rest of the UK get.

She's having to put aside quite a stash to get out of Europe no doubt - I can't see how one more billion can make much difference especially when it is for the greater good - no Corbyn.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Of course I don't blame the DUP for grabbing this chance.

And no doubt NI does need a lot of investment.

My issue is solely with us being repeatedly told there 'is no money' and then May managing to find this amount for her to cling onto power.

Can;t blame the DUP for wanting the best for NI. Much like you cannot really blame Sturgeon for her constant wanting of better for the Scottish than the rest of the UK get.

Ah yeah the money thing is ridiculous 7 years of austerity they are rolling in cash

[user104658]

Originally Posted by jet

Maybe the reason you think I had no objectivity is because you didn't want to believe what I was saying, pure and simple, and that goes for not just you but for everyone who thinks they know better than someone who lived here and knew of Corbyn personally and his activities in the 70's and beyond when most of you didn't know the man from Adam. Why the hell would I bother to post untruths? I have never participated in political discussions here regarding Cons/Labour as I have no interest or loyalty to either party. A simple search will verify that. So do you think I suddenly appeared in Serious Debates to run down Corbyn because I don't like his dress sense or whatever?

Don't tell me I couldn't have a reasoned, balanced and grounded discussion when everything I said was met with a brick wall of disdain and dismissal, and in some cases twisted (not by you in this instance, but by Dezzy ) to create a diversion so he/she didn't have to respond in a reasoned, balanced and grounded way to my posts.

And this is not for you TS, (unless I've missed your references to it) but for those of you who begrudge the 1billion windfall - can you not forget May and her motives and be just a little tolerant that it's going to a part of your country that suffered decades of bombing leading to the loss of thousands of lives, homes and businesses and still hasn't recovered?

Jeez, I never wanted a United Ireland, but the way some of you are talking about my beloved N.Ireland, (which is a beautiful and friendly place, despite it's history), as if it's a piece of **** on the map, I'm not sure I want to be a part of the UK any more. If some posters on this forum are representative of UK mindsets (and I would hope not) you clearly have no feeling or empathy or any understanding whatsoever for this part of your country.

When I say I think you're struggling for balance, it's not that I think what you're saying about Corbyn is wrong necessarily - I personally have seen another side to his character and have gone off him MASSIVELY since the tower fire - or that anything your saying doesn't have truth to it...

Its more that you've become so laser-focussed on Corbyn and his potential wrongdoing that you are less willing to hear or engage in criticisms of the Tories / the DUP / their alliance.

I guess it's important to remember that just because one side of something is bad... That doesn't mean that the other side of the coin is necessarily good. Even if you think it's "better", it's still OK to be able to criticise it... You don't have to Stan the opposition to "stick it to" the side you dislike more, I guess is what I'm saying.

In this case, I feel that increasingly, you're unwilling to look with a skeptical eye at the Tory/DUP deal because you immediately flip into "Corbyn would be worse!!" mode. But Corbyn isn't the discussion. Take Corbyn completely out of the equation and look at it in the most basic or terms... And the Tory/DUP alliance - even WITH the extra spending for NI - is potentially headed for real problems. It's not a good or desirable situation. What I mean by lacking balance is, it's gotten to the point where you are willing to pretend that it's all great, "because it isn't Corbyn". Your early posts on the topic included healthy criticism of the DUP too but that has all but evaporated now.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

When I say I think you're struggling for balance, it's not that I think what you're saying about Corbyn is wrong necessarily - I personally have seen another side to his character and have gone off him MASSIVELY since the tower fire - or that anything your saying doesn't have truth to it...

Its more that you've become so laser-focussed on Corbyn and his potential wrongdoing that you are less willing to hear or engage in criticisms of the Tories / the DUP / their alliance.

I guess it's important to remember that just because one side of something is bad... That doesn't mean that the other side of the coin is necessarily good. Even if you think it's "better", it's still OK to be able to criticise it... You don't have to Stan the opposition to "stick it to" the side you dislike more, I guess is what I'm saying.

In this case, I feel that increasingly, you're unwilling to look with a skeptical eye at the Tory/DUP deal because you immediately flip into "Corbyn would be worse!!" mode. But Corbyn isn't the discussion. Take Corbyn completely out of the equation and look at it in the most basic or terms... And the Tory/DUP alliance - even WITH the extra spending for NI - is potentially headed for real problems. It's not a good or desirable situation. What I mean by lacking balance is, it's gotten to the point where you are willing to pretend that it's all great, "because it isn't Corbyn". Your early posts on the topic included healthy criticism of the DUP too but that has all but evaporated now.

Nowhere did I say it was all great, or that any party was all great, please don't put words into my mouth. The only positive thing that I can see at present is the 1 billion for N.Ireland.

It's not that I lost balance, more that I responded to misconceptions that people have about my part of the country and the DUP. I don't like the party, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to correct misconceptions about them. I dislike Sinn Fein intensely, and am only too glad to criticise aspects of their past/present, but if someone posted something negative that I knew wasn't true I'd correct that as well.
And now I've finished here. Have a very nice day TS, and hopefully we'll discuss again under more pleasant circumstances sometime.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

You need to think how you come across at times.
Those in Scotland are aware of religious tensions particularly in Glasgow in the past.
Where hate,real hate as to just 2 football clubs was in evidence.
Everyone condemns the violence and killings in Northern Ireland.
I am full Irish on my Mother's side, I am also born Catholic.
I've seen when young the darker side of events in N Ireland, although my ancestry is from the South of Ireland.

Would I like a united Ireland,probably yes.
However bigoted sectarian parties still hold onto past glories,if that's an appropriate word.
They love shoving that at people every year.

It has nothing to do with being left,right or centre,it was hoped the UK and N Ireland had at least,while still condemning the past,were moving on at long last.
That is what should be the aim and what is endlessly worked at and for.
Not keeping the old hate and grievances to the forefront,thereby sacrificing all future for the past.

Let us Hope in keeping to the title of this thread, that agreement by both the DUP and Sinn Féinn comes about as to power sharing today.

Because if it doesn't and direct rule is imposed from Westminster.
Then with the DUP firmly having this govt in it's grip,that will likely open a very dangerous indeed can of worms again.

And what if the shoe had been on the other foot and Sinn Fein joined an alliance with Labour - I get the impression you would be okay with that - which would be sheer hypocrisy.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

You need to think how you come across at times.
Those in Scotland are aware of religious tensions particularly in Glasgow in the past.
Where hate,real hate as to just 2 football clubs was in evidence.
Everyone condemns the violence and killings in Northern Ireland.
I am full Irish on my Mother's side, I am also born Catholic.
I've seen when young the darker side of events in N Ireland, although my ancestry is from the South of Ireland.

Would I like a united Ireland,probably yes.
However bigoted sectarian parties still hold onto past glories,if that's an appropriate word.
They love shoving that at people every year.

It has nothing to do with being left,right or centre,it was hoped the UK and N Ireland had at least,while still condemning the past,were moving on at long last.
That is what should be the aim and what is endlessly worked at and for.
Not keeping the old hate and grievances to the forefront,thereby sacrificing all future for the past.

Let us Hope in keeping to the title of this thread, that agreement by both the DUP and Sinn Féinn comes about as to power sharing today.

Because if it doesn't and direct rule is imposed from Westminster.
Then with the DUP firmly having this govt in it's grip,that will likely open a very dangerous indeed can of worms again.

1. Because I spoke up for someone who was being treated with disdain? How do you come across?
2. People are indoctrinated into religion not born into it.
3. See your own words bold 4 and take your own advice re bold 3.
4. There are 2 sides in a conflict and both are part of peoples history. People don't forget loss and pain, that is entirely different to keeping alive old grievances.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by jaxie

1. Because I spoke up for someone who was being treated with disdain? How do you come across?
2. People are indoctrinated into religion not born into it.
3. See your own words bold 4.
4. There are 2 sides in a conflict and both are part of peoples history. People don't forget loss and pain, that is entirely different to keeping alive old grievances.

your 2nd point is untrue too generalised and offensive to billions

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by the truth

your 2nd point is untrue too generalised and offensive to billions

You are suggesting a baby is born with a religious affiliation?

Billions of people are offended by the idea religion is taught? Can't be helped I guess.


indoctrinate
ɪnˈdɒktrɪneɪt/Submit
verb
past tense: indoctrinated; past participle: indoctrinated
teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
"broadcasting was a vehicle for indoctrinating the masses"
synonyms: brainwash, propagandize, proselytize, inculcate, re-educate, persuade, convince, condition, discipline, mould; More
archaic
teach or instruct (someone).
"he indoctrinated them in systematic theology"

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by the truth

your 2nd point is untrue too generalised and offensive to billions

I think Jaxie's point is correct. People are generally taught religion as children and believe in what their patents believe. It is largely habit.

The only time a religous belief carries any weight is when someone adopts a belief in adulthood - and even then without knowing the circumstances i.e. Mental health, company they keep etc it is always questionable.