[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Yes and the main concern for caring about it seems to be the potential for some kind of sexual abuse/harassment.

.... in a place men have free access to.

That wasn’t my main concern

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

The discussion is about transgender patients who haven't had reassignment surgery.

Well i agree with the first reply in the thread by Bots.

Medical treatment has to be determined by biological sex not gender.

You wouldn’t put a male with for example prostate issues on a female ward as it wouldn’t cater to their needs as well.

Males and females have different requirements

People are split up by sex for a few reasons.

There are certain areas in life where reality has to be recognised over feelings.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Well i agree with the first reply in the thread by Bots.

Medical treatment has to be determined by biological sex not gender.

You wouldn’t put a male with for example prostate issues on a female ward as it wouldn’t cater to their needs as well.

Males and females have different requirements

People are split up by sex for a few reasons.

There are certain areas in life where reality has to be recognised over feelings.

Separation on gender not sex.

And, yes, I agree too that patients shouldn't be mixed and matched. But grouped dependant on their needs.

Some of those needs will lead to female only wards such as labour wards. Some won't.

[smudgie]

I just can’t see a problem here.
Firstly, mixed wards are or were the norm, but I have never seen mixed sexes/genders allocated to the same room.
The only time the men and women would meet was in the day room or the corridors.
I have absolutely no problem being admitted to a mixed ward, just as long as they have enough privacy available to all.
As an older person, I would have no issues with sharing a room with a trans person, more concerned about anyone snoring and keeping me awake.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by smudgie

I just can’t see a problem here.
Firstly, mixed wards are or were the norm, but I have never seen mixed sexes/genders allocated to the same room.
The only time the men and women would meet was in the day room or the corridors.
I have absolutely no problem being admitted to a mixed ward, just as long as they have enough privacy available to all.
As an older person, I would have no issues with sharing a room with a trans person, more concerned about anyone snoring and keeping me awake.

Yes Smudgie and that is your right, but as it stands if you did have an issue on cultural, religious or personal grounds your rights are less than the trans person, are you happy with giving every one else rights away based on your own personal preferences?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Yes Smudgie and that is your right, but as it stands if you did have an issue on cultural, religious or personal grounds your rights are less than the trans person, are you happy with giving every one else rights away based on your own personal preferences?

Is intolerance a "right"? ...

Also, your suggesting is that transfemales shouldn't be on female wards, but on male wards instead. It's perfectly feasible that a male on THAT ward could have a personal or religious issue with transgendered people. So then what?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Is intolerance a "right"? ...

Also, your suggesting is that transfemales shouldn't be on female wards, but on male wards instead. It's perfectly feasible that a male on THAT ward could have a personal or religious issue with transgendered people. So then what?

No I am not saying that at all, I would suggest a mixed ward would be the place, I don't think someone who self identified as a man or a woman last week should have the automatic right to go on a male only or female only ward.

You are asking about intolerance, what about someone whose religious belief does not allow them to be on the same ward as a male or female, what happens then, whose rights are more important?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

No I am not saying that at all, I would suggest a mixed ward would be the place, I don't think someone who self identified as a man or a woman last week should have the automatic right to go on a male only or female only ward.

You are asking about intolerance, what about someone whose religious belief does not allow them to be on the same ward as a male or female, what happens then, whose rights are more important?

If a mixed ward exists then why wouldn't all wards be mixed? Also, in terms of the latter argument, it would be entirely that individual's choice to not be on a ward and they can go home . In terms of rights, there's a huge difference between "I don't want to" and "you're not allowed to". They're not being denied a place anywhere, they're not being told they "must" do anything.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Yes Smudgie and that is your right, but as it stands if you did have an issue on cultural, religious or personal grounds your rights are less than the trans person, are you happy with giving every one else rights away based on your own personal preferences?

By the same token, why should a religious persons personal preference come before that of a transperson?

No rights are being denied here.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

By the same token, why should a religious persons personal preference come before that of a transperson?

No rights are being denied here.

West Suffolk NHS Trust said the transgender patient’s right to be in a single sex environment of their preferred gender “supersedes objections raised by other patients” despite women and men having a right to segregated facilities under the Equality Act 2010. It said that while a female victim of sexual assault could “reasonably” object to being on the same ward as someone they “perceive to be male”, staff should “seek the view of the trans service user” before any action was taken.


I am reading that as the trans person has more rights than anyone else? How are you interpreting it?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

West Suffolk NHS Trust said the transgender patient’s right to be in a single sex environment of their preferred gender “supersedes objections raised by other patients” despite women and men having a right to segregated facilities under the Equality Act 2010. It said that while a female victim of sexual assault could “reasonably” object to being on the same ward as someone they “perceive to be male”, staff should “seek the view of the trans service user” before any action was taken.


I am reading that as the trans person has more rights than anyone else? How are you interpreting it?

I'm interpreting it as anybody who objects to a specific dangerous individual or has valid reason to be uncomfortable will be dealt with.

Someone who just doesn't tolerate a transperson I imagine would be treated like someone refusing to share a ward with a black person. Either take the bed or don't, that's your choice.

I don't think the answer is to mollycoddle intolerant people who are stuck in the dark ages in regards to LGBTQ people being treated like perverts.

Wards are not secure units divided by gender anyway so any backlash is absurd.

The example quoted of a rape survivor not wanting to be on a ward with a penis is quite OTT. I imagine in an extreme case like this she would be given a private room anyway, as that is not a regular occurence. It's an exception.

[Jessica.]

I think most people would just be happy to be looked after by the NHS and there isn't really a reason to get offended for them and think up things that could "possibly" be offensive. No rights have been taken away, nobody is getting special treatment, they are just taking care of people who already have enough prejudice against them. If you see it differently then it must be a problem that you have yourself.

[Livia]

No penises in women only spaces. The only exception should be if you are in the process of transitioning but haven't yet reached surgery.

Anyone "identifying" as female ( because it's never the female to male trans people who have a problem...) should be on a male ward.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

No penises in women only spaces. The only exception should be if you are in the process of transitioning but haven't yet reached surgery.

Anyone "identifying" as female ( because it's never the female to male trans people who have a problem...) should be on a male ward.

As far as I can tell the only people who DO have a problem with any of it are straight women .

I mean I get it, it's fear-based, on the notion that they might somehow be in danger but honestly since when did we start structuring our lives and public services around people being worried about hypothetical situations? I'm not saying that it doesn't matter that people are afraid, but surely we have to base things on what's actually rational.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

As far as I can tell the only people who DO have a problem with any of it are straight women .

I mean I get it, it's fear-based, on the notion that they might somehow be in danger but honestly since when did we start structuring our lives and public services around people being worried about hypothetical situations? I'm not saying that it doesn't matter that people are afraid, but surely we have to base things on what's actually rational.

That's because having female only spaces invaded by penises only affects women. And actually, I'm not any surer than you are that lesbians are okay with it.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

That's because having female only spaces invaded by penises only affects women. And actually, I'm not any surer than you are that lesbians are okay with it.

And disallowing it only affects trans women, so why would the rights of one demographic automatically trump the rights of another? Especially as it seems that it's a minority of women who are actually uncomfortable with it, with the majority not actually caring much either way.

The argument seems to be that it's a privacy / comfort / dignity thing but that should be the default in any hospital setting. Certainly it shouldn't be assumed that these things are less important in a same-gendered situation, there are plenty of people who want privacy regardless, and the idea that "it doesn't matter because it's just other folks of the same gender" is wildly outdated.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

And disallowing it only affects trans women, so why would the rights of one demographic automatically trump the rights of another? Especially as it seems that it's a minority of women who are actually uncomfortable with it, with the majority not actually caring much either way.

The argument seems to be that it's a privacy / comfort / dignity thing but that should be the default in any hospital setting. Certainly it shouldn't be assumed that these things are less important in a same-gendered situation, there are plenty of people who want privacy regardless, and the idea that "it doesn't matter because it's just other folks of the same gender" is wildly outdated.

Yeah, why, after centuries of oppression, should women have a say about their own safety, because it might upset a man who, after all the privileges of being raised male, identifies as a woman.

This doesn't affect trans women at all. Trans women in the process of transitioning who have had or will have surgery... I have no problem with them and would be happy to share a changing room, a toilet, a ward...

Men who "identify" as women but have no interest in transitioning, they should be put in a ward where everyone else has a penis too.

And incidentally, when it comes to women's rights, I'm not comfortable with anyone with a penis changing the rules.

[Crimson Dynamo]

what about at a swimming pool?

women in Bath are complaining that men are walking around the communal showers naked, they demand some privacy and respect

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

what about at a swimming pool?

women in Bath are complaining that men are walking around the communal showers naked, they demand some privacy and respect

Again comparing apples to oranges; no it's not OK for people to walk around communal changing areas naked... but at last check, it was also not OK for people to walk around hospital wards naked. Maybe things have changed since I last visited one

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Again comparing apples to oranges; no it's not OK for people to walk around communal changing areas naked... but at last check, it was also not OK for people to walk around hospital wards naked. Maybe things have changed since I last visited one

surely oranges and bananas?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

surely grapefruit and bananas?

Fixed

[thesheriff443]

No I’m not getting in the life boat there is a man dressed as a woman sitting in it.

[ethanjames]

hi! a lot of people in this thread are speaking on my behalf as a trans ftm person who is pre op (though i have been on testosterone for a few months now!) and though i cannot speak for all trans people i would feel much more comfortable in a male ward than a female since that is what i identify as. most wards are mixed though from what i can remember so i don't quite see the issue here... but if there has to be gendered wards i think that if the person has some sort of proof they identify as that gender whether that is doctor diagnosed gender dysphoria or whatnot i dont see the problem whatsoever! you could always ask for a private ward if you are that concerned about trans people.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by ethanjames

hi! a lot of people in this thread are speaking on my behalf as a trans ftm person who is pre op (though i have been on testosterone for a few months now!) and though i cannot speak for all trans people i would feel much more comfortable in a male ward than a female since that is what i identify as. most wards are mixed though from what i can remember so i don't quite see the issue here... but if there has to be gendered wards i think that if the person has some sort of proof they identify as that gender whether that is doctor diagnosed gender dysphoria or whatnot i dont see the problem whatsoever! you could always ask for a private ward if you are that concerned about trans people.

the thread was started for all to comment and not a trans people only comment thread as it is something that affects all hospital patients

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

the thread was started for all to comment and not a trans people only comment thread as it is something that affects all hospital patients

Well the only ones offended in this thread are women not wanting a pre op trans on their ward.