[user104658]

Originally Posted by Holiver_and_Ivy

Contra

She's also done a video on Cancelling She's been cancelled a few times by the psycho mob, but thankfully always bounces back.

There's a reason that cancelling is a myth though - public opinion is roughly divided into three camps... two at each extreme who would like to "ban and cancel" and a big lump in the middle that doesn't care enough to be bothered either way). People "get cancelled" but all it does is increase their popularity with the other extreme whilst making no difference to the chunk in the middle. It's just a transfer, not a cancelling.

You can see clear examples of it with someone like Pier Morgan of course. The more he's hated from one end the more he's adored by the other, and he leans into it becoming ever-more deliberately sided with that mindset, and the cycle repeats.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Gusto Brunt

I remember being at school and there were boys who didn't like fighting, liked music lessons, and hated football.

They were sometimes called 'sissies'. Now they'd be considered trans.

Sad but true

[The Slim Reaper]

It was ok when we emasculated young males, and their self worth (I'm not going full Tate ) by calling them sissies, but a thing that has been totally made up is even more depressing.



This place is comedy gold.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

It was ok when we emasculated young males, and their self worth (I'm not going full Tate ) by calling them sissies, but a thing that has been totally made up is even more depressing.



This place is comedy gold.

If only we could go back to the days where kids can call other kids *****, what a scary time to be alive!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Liam-

If only we could go back to the days where kids can call other kids *****, what a scary time to be alive!

Some children will be horrible to any child who is different and weak - same today as its always been

probably now its more online

[Oliver_W]

Even if in some cases trans-identification isn't a phase, kids should never be allowed to medically transition. As SB said, experimenting with names and styling is one thing, but going down a medical path should never be an option for children.

I knew I was attracted to other guys when I was fairly young, but no-one would argue this means I could consent to sex. So why should children who "identify" as what they're not be put on life changing -elective and basically cosmetic- medication?

[Alf]

Us smokers are the most discriminated against group right now.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Id imagine that the 8000 in Neems article - the parents would share very similar things....

[user104658]

I watched the Contra video - I agree that it's a good watch with a view to building a balanced view on some of these issues. I think it's far from being a balanced view in itself but I think that's somewhat inevitable and I think she is (probably) aware of that limitation on some level (but overlooks it quite a bit throughout). But yes, a good watch for some understanding of that specific perspective, I absolutely agree about the need for understanding that the "hateful people online" are mostly hurt/confused/angry/already embroiled in aggressive backlash from all sides (I can't remember exactly how she phrases it).

I honestly think mass social media is the absolute worst place to be having these sorts of discussions, for multiple reasons. Even smaller "community" forums like arr TiBB are (usually) better. We have our moments, anyway.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I watched the Contra video - I agree that it's a good watch with a view to building a balanced view on some of these issues. I think it's far from being a balanced view in itself but I think that's somewhat inevitable and I think she is (probably) aware of that limitation on some level (but overlooks it quite a bit throughout). But yes, a good watch for some understanding of that specific perspective, I absolutely agree about the need for understanding that the "hateful people online" are mostly hurt/confused/angry/already embroiled in aggressive backlash from all sides (I can't remember exactly how she phrases it).

I honestly think mass social media is the absolute worst place to be having these sorts of discussions, for multiple reasons. Even smaller "community" forums like arr TiBB are (usually) better. We have our moments, anyway.

I haven't watched it through yet but she does come across as a reasonable person. Obviously has biases though (as most of us do) I can see why she thinks the way she does about the JK Rowling stuff as a trans woman however as a woman I see it differently, especially as a woman who has always been invested in women's rights. I still find it hard to understand why people thing it's more likely that JK Rowling has an anti trans agenda rather than a pro women's rights agenda (especially as she's a victim of domestic abuse herself)

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I haven't watched it through yet but she does come across as a reasonable person. Obviously has biases though (as most of us do) I can see why she thinks the way she does about the JK Rowling stuff as a trans woman however as a woman I see it differently, especially as a woman who has always been invested in women's rights. I still find it hard to understand why people thing it's more likely that JK Rowling has an anti trans agenda rather than a pro women's rights agenda (especially as she's a victim of domestic abuse herself)

This is the part that Contra did the best for me. Probably because it aligns more naturally with the way that I've spoken about bigotry in the past around this subject, and how it isn't always the intention to be against something, but often for something else. If you get the chance to watch it, I'd be really interested in getting your thoughts on that particular topic.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

This is the part that Contra did the best for me. Probably because it aligns more naturally with the way that I've spoken about bigotry in the past around this subject, and how it isn't always the intention to be against something, but often for something else. If you get the chance to watch it, I'd be really interested in getting your thoughts on that particular topic.

I have a bit of a drive to do after work today so I'll put the rest of it on in the car.

ETA. Although I probably won't post about it again till after the weekend, going somewhere where the internet is sketchy (plus honestly I enjoy not being online at the weekends!)

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I have a bit of a drive to do after work today so I'll put the rest of it on in the car.

ETA. Although I probably won't post about it again till after the weekend, going somewhere where the internet is sketchy (plus honestly I enjoy not being online at the weekends!)

You off to the cottage? Enjoy your weekend, and I look forward to your thoughts next week.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

going somewhere where the internet is sketchy

Niamh leaving us on a quest to moderate the darkweb

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I watched the Contra video - I agree that it's a good watch with a view to building a balanced view on some of these issues. I think it's far from being a balanced view in itself but I think that's somewhat inevitable and I think she is (probably) aware of that limitation on some level (but overlooks it quite a bit throughout). But yes, a good watch for some understanding of that specific perspective, I absolutely agree about the need for understanding that the "hateful people online" are mostly hurt/confused/angry/already embroiled in aggressive backlash from all sides (I can't remember exactly how she phrases it).

I honestly think mass social media is the absolute worst place to be having these sorts of discussions, for multiple reasons. Even smaller "community" forums like arr TiBB are (usually) better. We have our moments, anyway.

Fair reflection - I found some parts I agreed with, some I disagreed with, and some parts I didn't really feel werre necessary or she was qualified to even attempt - such as the psychoanalysing, but I think the fact she was fair, had issues with both sides (obviously those objections were not 50:50), is what would potentially make it a good watch for the people on this forum.

[Oliver_W]

Contra has won me over on a few topics; I'll never agree with children transitioning, or transwomen in women's sports or spaces; but she makes a convincing argument for acknowledging (or at least humouring) nonbinary identities.

Though I prefer her videos on non-trans issues.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Contra has won me over on a few topics; I'll never agree with children transitioning, or transwomen in women's sports or spaces; but she makes a convincing argument for acknowledging (or at least humouring) nonbinary identities.

The problem I found throughout the video, in simple terms, was that she too often takes a premise as accepted and builds a long argument on that premise ... but without making an argument for the premise. The root of logical debate is working a problem back until you reach an agreed premise and I think she jumps the gun on what's agreed.

In terms of "NB identities" for example, to even start down the route of validity you have to be at a place of agreement that the gender binary is real, that it's meaningful, and that the "problem" isn't the initial societal gender expectations and stereotypes. If you counter that that's effectively what NB identities are about... you also have to have the agreed premise that non-traditional gender presentations necessitate categorising and labelling.

My observation is actually that it's a late-millenial/early GenZ phenomenon, the later GenZ's and especially Gen Alpha kids seem to be moving past the rigitidy into a looser "I am what I am" territory that I personally think is likely to be a far healthier and less conflicted mindset.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

The problem I found throughout the video, in simple terms, was that she too often takes a premise as accepted and builds a long argument on that premise ... but without making an argument for the premise. The root of logical debate is working a problem back until you reach an agreed premise and I think she jumps the gun on what's agreed.

In terms of "NB identities" for example, to even start down the route of validity you have to be at a place of agreement that the gender binary is real, that it's meaningful, and that the "problem" isn't the initial societal gender expectations and stereotypes. If you counter that that's effectively what NB identities are about... you also have to have the agreed premise that non-traditional gender presentations necessitate categorising and labelling.

My observation is actually that it's a late-millenial/early GenZ phenomenon, the later GenZ's and especially Gen Alpha kids seem to be moving past the rigitidy into a looser "I am what I am" territory that I personally think is likely to be a far healthier and less conflicted mindset.

That is what we were always aiming for in the 90's as teens too though. To get rid of labels as such (except obviously were biology matters in a physical way) that people can like, dress, have a career in or enjoy whatever hobbies they want regardless of their sex

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Redway

But Oliver is kinda transphobic. That much is for show.

No he isnt

what you mean is he isnt pandering to the trans unscientific VS groupthink