[BBXX]

Originally Posted by vesavius

I don't think the Left are at all ready yet to talk about why that actually is.

I'm all quite genuinely all ears (my father was an elephant), but please provide statistics and evidence to back up the claims.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I'm all quite genuinely all ears (my father was an elephant), but please provide statistics and evidence to back up the claims.

I have already provided some in this thread, but you ignored them.

I am not gonna do the work of digging around for more for them to be ignored again or, more likely, to be dismissed because they don't come from a hard left source or whatever. I have had these sealioning type discussions far too many times and know how it goes.

Like I say, you aren't ready for that particular conversation yet I don't think. Give it another 5-10 years and you will be.

[Crimson Dynamo]

A rise in hate crimes = a rise in allowing silly idiots to WEAPONISE "hate crimes" as a means to shut people down.

The only hate that has been on the rise is from the far left and activists

still, at least we don't have any of them on here

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

A rise in hate crimes = a rise in allowing silly idiots to WEAPONISE "hate crimes" as a means to shut people down.

The ridiculously wide broadening of what can be felt to be a 'hate crime' is definitely a big part of it, yes.


I mean, make more things a crime and don't be amazed when crime rises.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by vesavius

I have already provided some in this thread, but you ignored them.

I am not gonna do the work of digging around for more for them to be ignored again or, more likely, to be dismissed because they don't come from a hard left source or whatever. I have had these sealioning type discussions far too many times and know how it goes.

Like I say, you aren't ready for that particular conversation yet I don't think. Give it another 10 years and you will be.

You provided stats on the attitudes of British Muslims, which I didn't ignore and went on to inform you of my opinion around religion and my distain for their hatred of my sexuality.

I asked for stats that the 56% rise in LGBT hate crimes are because of British Muslims which is what you were inferring.

I don't like the values Islam promotes, and have never pretended to, but I'm also not going to pretend they are responsibility of the rise in hate crimes without evidence.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I asked for stats that the 56% rise in LGBT hate crimes are because of British Muslims which is what you were inferring.

The problem for LGBT+ is not predominantly even from British Muslims.

But, how can you acknowledge that over 50% of UK Muslims (these are not the recent immigrants that come from far more fundamentalist cultures, btw) don't even think homosexuality should be legal and not make a connection?

TBC, I am not attacking moderate Muslims here, I am friends with many and they express a wide range of rational and reasonable views. This is not about them.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by vesavius

The problem for LGBT+ is not predominantly even from British Muslims.

But, how can you acknowledge that over 50% of UK Muslims (these are not the recent immigrants, btw) don't even think homosexuality should be legal and not make a connection?

I'm not not making the connection I'm just not ready to blame them solely for the rise in hate crime without evidence, that is all.

Aside from that, even if it was, what is your point? It doesn't discredit what I have been saying.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Aside from that, even if it was, what is your point? It doesn't discredit what I have been saying.

The point that was being made is that people are not watching a spicey episode of CBB and then going out and bashing gays because of it.

The recent spike in hate crime and violence figures you quote are coming from far deeper ideological and cultural beliefs than that.

[Zizu]

Its odd that muslims are opposed to homosexuality or LGBT yet are quite happy to groom/ abuse our uk white girls and don’t even regard them as human ..just something to use and abuse .

Even the young men will date / sh*g our white girls but then marry a good asian girl ..

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by vesavius

The recent spike in hate crime and violence figures you quote are coming from far deeper ideological and cultural beliefs than that.

I know this, which is why I said in an earlier post.

(Suffice to say, none of this is now referring to what Mickey said by any stretch, the conversation has moved far beyond Mickey onto a much larger subject at hand).

[Abra]

Originally Posted by vesavius

Luckily I care not even a little for your (bad) take on that or your judgement of me for it

You don't get to define or dictate how others think. Sorry.

If you want to see racism everywhere and tilt at windmills, knock yourself out. I don't mind.

I don't see racism everywhere, but do I see it when a white person calls a black person the most offensive racial slur in existence? Yes, absolutely. You would have to be either incredibly dumb or incredibly ignorant not to.

I'm not attempting to dictate how you think, if you are happy being a racist that is entirely your decision, but that doesn't make you exempt from being challenged on your views and having your (extremely weak) logic questioned.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Abra

if you are happy being a racist that is entirely your decision.

oh, go away with your silly name calling. I'm done with you.

Smoothbrained trolls that try to win by just screaching 'racist' at the other person. This is why I don't trust the Left to define what 'Hate Speech' is... There are just too many psychos that will try and abuse it.

[Abra]

Originally Posted by vesavius

oh, go away with your silly name calling. I'm done with you.

Person who defends white people calling black people the N word recoils in horror at being told they are a racist

[Beso]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I'm all quite genuinely all ears (my father was an elephant), but please provide statistics and evidence to back up the claims.

Was he dumbo?

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Beso

Was he dumbo?

That’s a good one, nice work.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by BBXX

You can diminish hate speech to "being a dickhead" if you wish, but that doesn't diminish the actions words do have. People do, will and always have acted upon the words of people, take a look at history. The people spreading negative messages about women are usually not actually assaulting them themselves physically, but their words illicit a response in incels to so do. The influential people spreading anti-LGBT rhetoric aren't beating up a gay couple who are just enjoying a drink outside a pub, but they inspire others to do so, not through orders, but simply by helping stir the pot of simmering homophobia already present.

You simply cannot put your head in the sand and act like the effect of words end at the moment they leave the tongue, that they're "just words" and "offence is taken and not given". It's not about that. It's about the impact the words have on others who want a reason to think it's justifiable to punch a gay man in the face.

LGBT people are four times more likely to be a victim of assault than straight people and compared to five years ago there is a 56% increase in hate crime against LGBT people.

But yeah, the real issue is the slippery slope that starts with telling people if they say discriminatory words they will be reprImanded.

(Suffice to say, none of this is now referring to what Mickey said by any stretch, the conversation has moved far beyond Mickey onto a much larger subject at hand)

I understand what you're saying, but I'm just going to use the same point that I use when people try to blame GTA for an increase in violence.

If someone (for example) wants to beat someone to death because they're gay, then unfortunately they were on the brink of committing the crime anyway, no Andrew Tate Podcast saying Homophobic stuff can alter his viewers mindsets.

Tbh, if someone is a fan of Andrew Tate unironically it probably already means that the individual was messed up to begin with, the same with any other political extremist on the right.

And I too am concerned about the worrying increase in violence against gay people as well, but I honestly think that silencing people from what they really think, otherwise their life is ruined will send them more down an extremist path than just debating it out with them why their opinion is wrong.

Because challenging these extremists views is extremely important (and also is apart of free speech,) but challenging them in the mainstream is better than letting them build their own echo chambers, where most people don't even see these lunatics coming.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by vesavius

On my part, that's a relief, because I personally never said that. I have said that JoJo has made her peace with mickey and if she has then I am happy to move on, but that's not the same thing.

I didn't actually see anyone else say that either, but if you say you did, ok.

Tbf there were people that I saw saying that Danny was now friends with Mickey.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

A rise in hate crimes = a rise in allowing silly idiots to WEAPONISE "hate crimes" as a means to shut people down.

The only hate that has been on the rise is from the far left and activists

still, at least we don't have any of them on here

I don't know about that tbh.

I think both sides have gotten more extreme over the last 5-10 years.

I feel Politically not represented anymore because both sides in general have moved past what I deem as more moderate/sensible Political views.

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Tbf there were people that I saw saying that Danny was now friends with Mickey.

I accept that for sure, I def don't see every post.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by vesavius

I accept that for sure, I def don't see every post.

Oh same here tbf.

Even during off-season there can be stuff that's being said and I have no clue what people are going on about.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Then you're not for freedom of speech then imo.

The only time freedom of speech should go out the window is if the person is either threatening or harassing someone, everything else should be allowed imo.

Admittedly Mickey would be removed under my metric for threatening both Jojo and Chris in different scenarios.

Freedom of speech doesn't go out the window per say, but it's still obviously possible to violate any laws that have nothing to do with the regulation of speech. A person may be calling someone an n-word while murdering the **** out of them. They won't be arrested for the use of that word, they're being arrested for the murdering part and all words can do is aid motive or add to enhancements. (Ex: Hate crime)

However, limiting free speech with speech laws that have the ability to regulate it means there is no freedom of speech. That's a pretty low bar here, but a fairly important one that most would agree that that right is no longer accessible to all of society. Govt can erode away more speech with additional legislation citing important social regulations that "need doing" so it would be trivial to scrap it with further protections.

We keep an iron fist on ours because self-censorship is considered anathema to a free society. It's also seen that advocates and politicians that want to mandate speech are only ever interested in doing so to suppress actual criticism, usually of them and their agenda.

I understand it is dated to question certain lifestyle choices and that words can be very hurtful, but get in line. We have all suffered due to the behavior of other humans throughout human history. Humans suffer daily due to bad governing and the one thing we do all have all in common is human suffering. The only thing limiting speech does is tip the scales so that one person's suffering outweighs another. Many people can't wrap their mind around this because they think too short term and don't really question giving the govt increasing precedent to erode speech protections.

Speech should always be on the table to keep free flow of ideas, even if its purpose is just the continued demise of bad ideas. We can still talk about the "glories" of slavery and general degeneracy in a debate form. However, being able to even have a have debate is critical to free thought. Also, having that debate doesn't make 1) that person a heathen 2) will suddenly cause slavery to make a miraculous return... a few people may have positive words to say about a certain idea, but the point is that the pushback is very real in that that people can't generally question the unpopularity of ideas as they don't have an external voice directing the public on what it should and should not say.

What some don't know, the primary reason America still has 2A is to be able to forcibly protect our freedoms and inherent rights. It's not for vanity. Yes, it would be nice to live in a world where we could trust the people in power implicitly with certain duties but that's not the reality of the world. So if anything, freedom of speech is just a more peaceful way we can through the force of political friction regulate our own govt and its powers.

Btw, a person can catch an aggravated assault charge by just threatening bodily harm in the US, but it's not the words or content that justify the charge, it's because they expressed intent. Ex: "I'm going to shoot you" is intent. Though in the case of a gun, it would be raised to aggravated assault with a deadly weapon.

Mickey could've caught an assault charge in the US if it was justifiable enough he was intending to cause bodily injury to another person. His fists are considered weapons with the potential to cause fatal injury and so the indictment could even be raised with a dangerous weapon charge.

Also, if it's not clear, I support the inclusion of hate crime laws, but believe hate speech is cancerous to free speech protections.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

I understand what you're saying, but I'm just going to use the same point that I use when people try to blame GTA for an increase in violence.

If someone (for example) wants to beat someone to death because they're gay, then unfortunately they were on the brink of committing the crime anyway, no Andrew Tate Podcast saying Homophobic stuff can alter his viewers mindsets.

Tbh, if someone is a fan of Andrew Tate unironically it probably already means that the individual was messed up to begin with, the same with any other political extremist on the right.

Thanks for your reply. I totally get your point, but in another thread you openly question why that game promoting rape even exists and why the makers haven’t been investigated. So you can understand that there is a difference between a game in which the ability to do bad stuff exists (GTA) and a game which actively promotes doing bad stuff (the other game) and why one is not problematic in the way the other is. So there are complexities and levels which exist in society across all things where we say “that crosses the line”, and that has always existed.

To clarify, if someone was to say “I don’t agree with gay marriage, to be honest, I think marriage should be between a man and a woman” then I’m not calling for them to be punished for having that opinion. I disagree with it, but whatever.

If someone says “Gay people are disgusting, they’re after our children and their gross behaviour is disintegrating traditional values and it must be stopped”, well that’s another kind of thing altogether and that kind of all-too-common baiting by far-right paranoid Lawrence Fox type people should absolutely be challenged and called out for what it is: inciting hate.

[thesheriff443]

Long gone are the days bb5 when Jason called Dan a big **** and it was taken as it was ment a joke

I be not seen all these attacks on the gay community only teenagers stabbing others teenagers to death

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

I be not seen all these attacks on the gay community only teenagers stabbing others teenagers to death

Compiled the below in just 2 minutes, hope that helps. Multiple issues can exist at the same time.

Drag Queen Story Hour UK founder attacked in ‘homophobic hate crime’ just hours after proposing - link

Thugs wanted for vile homophobic hate crime after assaulting gay couple with plank of wood in Chadwell Heath, east London - link

Police release images of man after couple attacked in London Underground hate crime - link

Woman attacks man with glass bottle in suspected homophobic hate crime - link

Man sentenced for homophobic assault on Drag Race UK star - link

Couple beaten up in homophobic attack in Birmingham's Gay Village speak of ordeal - link

Nottingham: Man 'shaken and scared by homophobic attack' - link

Gay man beaten by youths in homophobic attack in Bournemouth - link

Clapham stabbing: Man sought after homophobic attack - link

[vesavius]

Originally Posted by BBXX

If someone says “Gay people are disgusting, they’re after our children and their gross behaviour is disintegrating traditional values and it must be stopped”... should absolutely be challenged and called out for what it is: inciting hate.

You are 100% correct. It should be called out and challenged. And if it was said on CBB it of course would be. Robustly and at great length.

It could easily be argued that the conversation coming from a person saying those things and the mass rejection of that as an idea is actually a really valuable teaching point that would reach way beyond the show itself.

But, I maintain... No one not already ideologically or culturally predisposed is watching a spicey episode of CBB and then going out to bash gays because it convinced them that was the OK thing to do.

But, I guess we will get a Netflix show about how a 13 year old white British lad from a stable loving traditional family was radicalised by Mickey Rourke to go on a giant gay bashing spree.

Also, I have also seen even on this forum straights being called 'gross' and 'dirty breeders' and that seems to be perfectly acceptable by the majority of the 'progressive' mindset. I didn't see any on the Left here calling for them to be banned from the forum.