[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

As far as it being a 'red herring'. I've taken this vote very seriously. I mean, its not like I got up one morning and flipped a coin.

I was leaning more in than I was out until I did my homework with due diligence. This is not a decision I made lightly, its taken months to try and research the trade deals going on between the EU and America and one thing became abundantly clear is, British citizens and even MP's are not allowed to know what the **** is going on. Therefore I refuse to be flippant about something so fundamentally undemocratic.

I said TTIP has now become a red herring from the 'leave' campaigners,due to the firm opposition to it from the EU nations,leaders and citizens themselves.
It is in effect dead in the water as it stands.

No one is saying you have not diligently thought your position on this through.
However equally so, neither have I and those on the remain side.

When you first raised the TTIP issue, I looked at it closer than I had before and came to hate the idea.had it appeared that the EU Nations were heading to accept and ratify it,then I likely would have again considered voting differently.
However with the developments and rejection there will be from the EU nations now,for me TTIP is no longer an issue.
It is never going to happen in its current form and the contentious parts of it will have to be removed.
Again even then there are difficult roads ahead with the EU nations,so for me, the EU Nations have acted responsibly on this and so for me TTIP is not an issue now,it was but is not now.

I personally, and I also say it is just my view, would never vote to take the UK out of the status, success and uniquely best trading deal it currently has with the EU, on an issue that is not going to happen.
I personally am not prepared to throw away all the money we have put into the EU, all the work and time we have done helping to form the EU as it actually is now, for an issue like TTIP, which the EU Nations voting on the deal as it is, would soundly refuse to accept and refuse to ratify.

With now so many Nations in the EU,I am happier,because I do believe more reform can come as the PM said last night and no matter what the EU hierarchy may like to see, with 28 Nations now, it will be far harder to get consensus across the board now on anything that is not right.

For me the TTIP issue is the same as the Euro now,I would not want either,I now know the UK will never be expected to join the Euro and will always be able to refuse to do so.
TTIP is in my view dead in the water, tanks to the EU member Nations,neither are now issues and, for me at least, neither should be reasons for taking the UK on a path that is clouded in mist,of ifs, maybe's and don't knows.

So while I do respect you and your decision,for me this is like a dangerous ride for the UK,it is a bit like being at a theme park, awful comparison this, that has a dangerous ride,you seem content to take the UK on that ride without knowing the full consequences,I would rather myself stay with what I know and keep my feet on the ground as to the UK and not risk anything.

I know in the EU which we have put time, money work and effort into help create it as it is now,has a future and the UK for me is better served remaining in that.
I have heard nothing from the EU, the other Nations from the rest of the World or anything really from the leave campaigns, that fills me with any confidence the UK will hold the status it currently has, the success it currently has and that it would even do just the same as now if we left the EU.

That for me paints a dull picture indeed and sets alarm bells ringing for me.

I also am sure, that immigration in or out will not change unless it is immigration from outside the EU as I feel more sure every day that for any trading deal worth anything with the EU if we leave, in the end the UKs negotiators will have to accept as a condition, the free movement of EU citizens.
Stopping that is not a question on the ballot paper in this referendum,only our membership of the EU is.

You must do as you have come to decide, and what is best in your eyes and you have to be respected in full for your decision but with respect TTIP is not the issue it was and it is in effect more likely to go away totally,especially now with the massive opposition to it from all the EU Nations.

Really TTIP is redundant for me as an issue now in this referendum campaign, again I say, thanks to near all the other EU member Nations.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I've got no idea what Boris or Farage have been waffling on about because I pay them no attention but if they are talking about the EU being a secret order, they are right. I mean, who is our EMP's and who voted them in? Who leads the EU and who voted them in? Why aren't we allowed to look at the proposals for TTIP until after its signed for?

Being democratic includes power to the people. The more I understand or at least try to understand the workings of the EU, the more it feels like a corporate takeover.

We elect our MEPs, I know who mine is because I voted for him. The leaders of the EU are appointed by our own elected representatives. Moaning about faceless bureaucrats in Brussels is like moaning about faceless civil servants and quangos in Whitehall making decisions. Fact is very little gets done in Europe without following democratic process. And its rich for Leavers to complain about unelected politicians when they are content with our own second chamber of government being comprised completely of unelected Lords.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by MTVN

We elect our MEPs, I know who mine is because I voted for him. The leaders of the EU are appointed by our own elected representatives. Moaning about faceless bureaucrats in Brussels is like moaning about faceless civil servants and quangos in Whitehall making decisions. Fact is very little gets done in Europe without following democratic process. And its rich for Leavers to complain about unelected politicians when they are content with our own second chamber of government being comprised completely of unelected Lords.

There are very few independent representatives and so if you vote for Dick Turpin (con) but Dick Turpin isn’t an independent and his constituency happens to be much smaller the much disliked Austin Powers, also (con), then your vote is being cast for a Conservative MEP but not the one you want.

The leaders of the EU surely must be voted in by the civilians they are supposed to be supporting and not a representative body who are swayed by the bias of their own political beliefs.

I would argue that there is very little democratic process within the EU establishment because any government cloaked in secrecy is a government that lack interest in public opinion.

[arista]

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

There are very few independent representatives and so if you vote for Dick Turpin (con) but Dick Turpin isn’t an independent and his constituency happens to be much smaller the much disliked Austin Powers, also (con), then your vote is being cast for a Conservative MEP but not the one you want.

The leaders of the EU surely must be voted in by the civilians they are supposed to be supporting and not a representative body who are swayed by the bias of their own political beliefs.

I would argue that there is very little democratic process within the EU establishment because any government cloaked in secrecy is a government that lack interest in public opinion.

MEP's are elected by proportional representation, the very electoral system that many of those supporting Leave want us to adopt here

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

There are very few independent representatives and so if you vote for Dick Turpin (con) but Dick Turpin isn’t an independent and his constituency happens to be much smaller the much disliked Austin Powers, also (con), then your vote is being cast for a Conservative MEP but not the one you want.

The leaders of the EU surely must be voted in by the civilians they are supposed to be supporting and not a representative body who are swayed by the bias of their own political beliefs.

I would argue that there is very little democratic process within the EU establishment because any government cloaked in secrecy is a government that lack interest in public opinion.

I think you exaggerate both the lack of democracy that exists in the EU and the lack of accountability there is for these 'unelected leaders' who tend to serve short terms and are appointed by those we elect to represent us.

I am very confident in saying that if we left the EU we almost certainly would not 'feel' like we are more democratically run. This is a different discussion I guess but if anything I think people don't actually care that much for democracy. Sure the turnout for general elections is decent but in local elections and EU elections we're talking less than 40%. And the PCC elections have had turnouts of less than 20%. I would say that the majority of people appreciate their vote every five years but aside from that they are quite happy to leave the murky business of running government, providing public services etc. to our representatives.

[Livia]

MTVN... king of this thread.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

Amazing how now one bigger businessman has said leaving is right,we get from the leave campaigns that he should be listened to.

However they infer we should ignore the masses of big businessman who advocate remaining in the EU.

Was there ever a doubt this particular businessman was going to vote to leave, not to me there wasn't.

[arista]

Labour MP John Mann Comes Out For Brexit
http://news.sky.com/story/1709714/la...out-for-brexit

he is a Good MP



[Labour MP John Mann has thrown his
support behind the campaign to leave
the European Union, and says he thinks
a majority of the party's voters could
very well back a Brexit on 23 June.
In an open letter, the politician said
too few Labour MPs were in favour
of Brexit - and warned the party
is "going to get a big shock across
the country" when the referendum
votes are counted.]

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

Labour MP John Mann Comes Out For Brexit
http://news.sky.com/story/1709714/la...out-for-brexit

he is a Good MP



[Labour MP John Mann has thrown his
support behind the campaign to leave
the European Union, and says he thinks
a majority of the party's voters could
very well back a Brexit on 23 June.
In an open letter, the politician said
too few Labour MPs were in favour
of Brexit - and warned the party
is "going to get a big shock across
the country" when the referendum
votes are counted.]

I think he is wrong in the campaign he is supporting but probably right as to the outcome.

Personally I do not rate John Mann as a good MP at all however.

[Johnnyuk123]

We have all heard the scare tactics from the remain side about leaving the EU but what exactly will happen if we do decide to remain in the EU?
Lets take a look...

Youtube video

[joeysteele]

I am sick of hearing from Daniel Hannan and his one sided lectures.
Just what I would expect from him.
When he actually gives a supported and substantiated factual picture of out, then I may be prepared to listen to him.
There is good and bad if we stay,and good and bad if we leave, it is what the risks are as to both that in my view,should be the important factor.
For me staying has less risks because I know where we have been,where we are and would likely be going if we stay in.

Out, I have not the slightest idea what may happen or how the UK would end up.

[Kizzy]

Could I nominate myself as queen of the thread please?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Could I nominate myself as queen of the thread please?

I don't see why you shouldn't Kizzy,the thread may as well have 'remain' supporters, King and Queen of the thread,if there is any need for either that is.
I would second both you and MTVN for those titles for sure.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I don't see why you shouldn't Kizzy,the thread may as well have 'remain' supporters, King and Queen of the thread,if there is any need for either that is.
I would second both you and MTVN for those titles for sure.

Thanks Therefore I proclaim thee Prince Joey of Remaindom!

Wonder what merriment the brexit jesters Farage and bojo will perform for us today?

[Liberty4eva]

Has there been anyone who has changed their mind over who they are voting in the past few months or not? I am curious.

[Northern Monkey]

Funny how the EU budget has now been postponed until AFTER the British referendum.There's obviously some things in there which will sway us more for Brexit.Wonder what they could be trying to hide?

[Johnnyuk123]

This is must see tv.

Youtube video

[empire]

I want out, what does this country need, with 1.5 million turks, and also this thing about an EU army, and that are country will be just a super state, this plan of a united states europe, and also a draft law if this united states europe goes to war, we will be forced to fight against are will, all this worries me,

[Livia]

Heartening news from the polls this morning. More and more people and businesses waking up and realising we're better off without the shackles of Europe.

[Kizzy]

If you mean Murdock then I think that'll just sway more people to remain tbh, everyone knows everything in his rags are lies.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

If you mean Murdock then I think that'll just sway more people to remain tbh, everyone knows everything in his rags are lies.

Was there ever a surprise in that Murdoch would come out as for leave.

However, this is one interference from outside the UK that the leave side leaders will likely be telling us to listen to and heed.
While at the same time saying outsiders should not interfere in the process,only when they advocate remaining in however.

I for one however would 'never' take any notice of Rupert Murdoch.

[DemolitionRed]

I thought I'd post a blog by Richard Murphy. Richard is a 'remain voter' btw and although, for some reason, he refuses to discuss the TTIP deal, I find his blogs very thought provoking. Here's what he has to say this morning:

What if the UK votes Brexit?

The question can be agonized over or answered in a single word, which is arrogance. The referendum was Cameron’s equivalent of John Major’s Conservtive party leadership resignation moment. In both cases they had reached the point where they had suffer-sped those they felt to be the ‘bastards’ for long enough and demanded ‘put up or shut up’.

There is a difference though. Major put his own future on the line. Cameron put the country’s in the same position. Major was pretty sure of the outcome. So too was Cameron. There was however another difference: no one really doubted Major had called the odds right even*if it was apparent he would be doomed when he had to face the country. Cameron looks as if he might have got his odds spectacularly wrong. Even a narrow Remain, which is the best he could hope for now, would release the type of backlash that has swept the SNP to their current position in Scotland. Arrogance is the only explanation for that.

Of courses it would be easy to say that this is an arrogance that comes from Cameron’s position of privilege. But that does not explain why some of those with similar backgrounds are opposing him. The issue is not as simple as conventional class attitudes.

Rather, the arrogance is that of a prevailing cohort of power that has reached a point where it has lost the ability to think that it could lose that power. This arrogance is that if the Establishment. Owen Jones did a good job defining*this: I won’t re-cover his ground. What I will say is that there is a very obvious elite in society. It does cross political divides, to some degree. It does embrace large parts of politics, the professions, business, military and the legal system. And, dangerously, neoliberalism has given it a hegemony that restored its confidence after the battering that it took from 1929 onwards. That restoration of confidence had reached the point where it has felt itself insurmountable.

It is paradoxical, of course, that this elite is being challenged at present by those who appear to be a part of it. That though does not alter my thesis. The actions of Johnson, Give, Farage and the Tory Brexit camp are old fashioned power grabs seeking to realign the control in their particular favor. Such plotting has always been the favorite pastime of elites since time immemorial. But I have little doubt at all that people will not be voting for their positions, or them as people, or what they have even had to say come June 23rd. Rather they are voting against the elite. Johnson et al had better take note.

The wave of rejection has some deeply unsavory aspects to it. The racism is the most obvious and is deeply worrying. But again this is not the ‘why’ of the voting sentiments currently being expressed, in my opinion.

That why is simply that voting Leave is like having for the very first time an option of saying ‘none of the above’ and a lot of people are going to take it.
This is a rejection of the politics of hegemony.

And of the power of corporations.

It’s a giant rebuff to the status quo.

It is an expression of deep anger; at being left behind economically; of having the wealth divide rubbed in faces; of being left feeling powerless; of having little hope of changing anything.

And then the chance to spite the system arrived. And even if leaving is wholly irrational (and I have laid out why I think it is) people may well vote for it because Cameron, in his arrogance, assumed he could cajole and frighten people to do his bidding and so get them to solve his own little local difficulty and instead he created the chance for people to say ‘sod off, the lot of you’. And there is a real chance they will do just that.

No wonder Remain are panicked. No wonder the EU power structures are. No wonder the rearguard action so retain control despite a referendum looks to be the only option being discussed by those who fear losing power. That is what an elite does when faced with a crisis that rocks the state to its core, which is what a Brexit vote would do.

What is not being asked is how this decision is embraced if it happens. And how we adapt to it. And what has to happen as a consequence. It’s the arrogance that is stopping that happening: the idea of rejection is beyond an elite’s comprehension.

Some rude awakenings do, at the very least, look to be possible soon. And that may be very uncomfortable for many, including those leading the Leave campaign.


http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2...-votes-brexit/

[bitontheslide]

lets look at an extreme example of being independent in Europe - Russia. The rest of europe tolerate them because they have a formidable fighting force and they are a source of vital resources that Europe needs for survival.

If Russia were a part of the EU, there would be much less tension, people would negotiate and cooperate.

While the UK will never be seen as the threat that Russia is, it doesn't have vital resources required by the EU either. We would forever be considered the loud mouthed silly nation that only thinks of itself. How is that a good position to be in? The moment we leave the EU, we will become a pest that people want to swat at every opportunity. That's the reality of leaving the EU.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

If you mean Murdock then I think that'll just sway more people to remain tbh, everyone knows everything in his rags are lies.

Did I say Murdoch? No...