[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I've already done that,it just gets worse and more intolerant. Said all I had to anyway even if it did get shouted down by those who see those appearing against as terrorist sympathisers.
They even get claps for it.

I know Joey - people attempting to slur anyone who doesn't agree with the official line on this as terrorist sympathisers and "traitors" really is on a whole other level. Even for this forum, which as we all know can get quite messy.

I don't think it would be happening if our own Prime Minister hadn't started that ball rolling though, which when you think about it is straight up terrifying. It's blatant, dangerous, undemocratic, authoritarian propaganda coming from the mouth of the most powerful man in the country and people are more than happy to repeat it.

[the truth]

That must have been one of the lowest days ever in the british parliaments long and chequered history. The quality and narrowness of the debate was pitiful, it was barely students union level. Virtually every aspect of this multi faceted complex situation was overlooked or ignored. what is the masterplan? how long are we bombing? where who and why are we bombing? what are we doing about the boundaries, the borders around Syria, Iraq, turkey, Greece, france, Germany...what about the Schengen agreement that lets everyone into Europe without any paperwork? what about the kurds, the money for oil from turkey, the multi million arms and weapons being suppied to the rebels and getting into the hands of ISIS? what happens with the 100s of thousands of refugees, are we building bigger and better camps, are we and others sending in border patrols, peace keeping soldiers like the germans? what about terrorist websites etc etc ...the list is endless...all we got was Hilary benns pathetic overhyped amateur dramatics about these nasty isis...duh really Hilary? gee thanks for that awesome insight...but how do we make each other safer?

[Kizzy]

Don't be intimidated, I don't care if I'm accused of being anything terrorist sympathiser, traitor, water of a ducks back Joey.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

Don't be intimidated, I don't care if I'm accused of being anything terrorist sympathiser, traitor, water of a ducks back Joey.

It gets tedious after a while and some who are solidly in favour are sometimes not interested in much else than putting down those who are not.
I can be swayed either way and I think that is where most people are really as to this dilemma anyway,on here and off here.

I'm not intimidated just not interested in wasting my time any longer on the issue.
My position is well known by now without putting down,ridiculing and dismissing the opinions made in posts by anyone who is strongly against,or for that matter even for too.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

It gets tedious after a while and some who are solidly in favour are sometimes not interested in much else than putting down those who are not.
I can be swayed either way and I think that is where most people are really as to this dilemma anyway,on here and off here.

I'm not intimidated just not interested in wasting my time any longer on the issue.
My position is well known by now without putting down,ridiculing and dismissing the opinions made in posts by anyone who is strongly against,or for that matter even for too.

Another fair post Joey, and though we are on opposite sides on this matter of 'Yes' or 'No' to bombing (though I did think you were originally in favour) I DO know what you mean by it getting 'tedious'.

I have emboldened the first paragraph because I would politely (out of respect to you) point out that though you do fairly write that "some who are in favour are sometimes not interested in much else than putting down those who are not" - such conduct is just as true of some on here who are against the bombing.

[In the Drunk Tank]

Has TiBB been infiltrated by Momentum? I fear that those of us members who supported action may shortly be up for deselection

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Has TiBB been infiltrated by Momentum? I fear that those of us members who supported action may shortly be up for deselection

Leave your ban hammer by the door on your way out....

[user104658]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Has TiBB been infiltrated by Momentum? I fear that those of us members who supported action may shortly be up for deselection

There are as many "for" as "against" by my count. If you feel that "those members who supported action" are at risk then that can only because their arguments are less compelling.

... Surely?

Otherwise the reverse could or should be just as true. I'm pretty sure infraction trigger fingers must be itching all round to be honest.

[In the Drunk Tank]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

There are as many "for" as "against" by my count. If you feel that "those members who supported action" are at risk then that can only because their arguments are less compelling.

... Surely?

Otherwise the reverse could or should be just as true. I'm pretty sure infraction trigger fingers must be itching all round to be honest.

Well I thought people would realise I was joking with that, I don't have much interest in taking the debate seriously when it gets like it has been the last few pages

[Kizzy]

well well well...

' I believe that only one politician deserves to emerge with an enhanced reputation as a result of the week’s events. That figure is Jeremy Corbyn.
Whether or not you like Mr Corbyn (and I profoundly disagree with many of his policies), there is no denying that he emerged from the arguments over Syria as a man of moral courage, integrity and principle.
Indeed, how interesting that after months of denigrating Corbyn, the Blairite tendency — together with those excitable inhabitants of the Westminster bubble — have been made to look silly in their prediction that Labour would lose the Oldham by-election.
In the real world, it seems the voters have more time for the Labour leader than the metropolitan commentariat.
Faced with bitter hostility from his own side on Wednesday, Mr Corbyn stood his ground. Courteously, he set out his honest doubts about the wisdom of bombing raids on Syria.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...lary-Benn.html

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

well well well...

' I believe that only one politician deserves to emerge with an enhanced reputation as a result of the week’s events. That figure is Jeremy Corbyn.
Whether or not you like Mr Corbyn (and I profoundly disagree with many of his policies), there is no denying that he emerged from the arguments over Syria as a man of moral courage, integrity and principle.
Indeed, how interesting that after months of denigrating Corbyn, the Blairite tendency — together with those excitable inhabitants of the Westminster bubble — have been made to look silly in their prediction that Labour would lose the Oldham by-election.
In the real world, it seems the voters have more time for the Labour leader than the metropolitan commentariat.
Faced with bitter hostility from his own side on Wednesday, Mr Corbyn stood his ground. Courteously, he set out his honest doubts about the wisdom of bombing raids on Syria.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...lary-Benn.html

None of the British adventures in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya in recent years produced any gain for our country, to offset the sacrifices made during those conflicts by our soldiers and their families.

Quite the contrary — all three turned into disasters. Indeed, Islamic State came into being as a direct consequence of the Iraq invasion, as even Tony Blair grudgingly acknowledged recently.

This was on the mail online? The... The DAILY Mail? OK I'm done, my head has just imploded. It's making me want to post kirk's ****zy clapping emote thing. The mail??

[In the Drunk Tank]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

This was on the mail online? The... The DAILY Mail? OK I'm done, my head has just imploded. It's making me want to post kirk's ****zy clapping emote thing. The mail??

The Mail's published quite a lot of stuff against intervention in the last couple of weeks

[James]

The genocide that IS has carried out is comparable in its aim to what the Nazis did, although IS don't have the means to carry it out on a similar scale.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by James

The genocide that IS has carried out is comparable in its aim to what the Nazis did, although IS don't have the means to carry it out on a similar scale.

Could you expand on the similarities?

[James]

Originally Posted by Merry Kizzmas

Could you expand on the similarities?

If you look up what they did to a group of people called the Yazidis in Northern Iraq it goes into detail there. There is an article on Wikipedia.

There is a link here - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...ulltext=Search

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by James

If you look up what they did to a group of people called the Yazidis in Northern Iraq it goes into detail there. There is an article on Wikipedia.

There is a link here - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...ulltext=Search

I'll have a read of that tomorrow, thanks

[user104658]

Originally Posted by James

The genocide that IS has carried out is comparable in its aim to what the Nazis did, although IS don't have the means to carry it out on a similar scale.

Yes but the same could be said of any Ku Klux Klan group in any hick backwater, or a myriad of other people and groups with toxic ideologies. There are still ACTUAL Nazi groups with not similar or comparable ideologies to Hitler, but identical ones.

Would we really equate them though? Of course not. Obviously ISIS isn't small like those examples but, to be honest, they're closer to that than they are to the Axis forces that rampaged across continental Europe. I mean really... Let's have some perspective.

[In the Drunk Tank]

I agree that predisposed opinions will colour future reaction as well. If we hear reports of civilian deaths or if there is a terror attack here in the UK there will be a lot of 'I told you so' from the anti-strikes people and if, a few years down the line, ISIS are defeated or even if there are governments in Syria and Iraq that have control over most of their countries then those who pushed for intervention will proclaim it a success even if it came at horrible cost.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I agree that predisposed opinions will colour future reaction as well. If we hear reports of civilian deaths or if there is a terror attack here in the UK there will be a lot of 'I told you so' from the anti-strikes people and if, a few years down the line, ISIS are defeated or even if there are governments in Syria and Iraq that have control over most of their countries then those who pushed for intervention will proclaim it a success even if it came at horrible cost.

...that's also why I think that many people aren't clear cut in their opinions as well...(it definitely is that way for me..)..because although I'm not supportive of the strikes, I can also see the perspectives of those who are as well and their reasoning, which also makes sense...there is no right or wrong in this and many different outcomes and would be the same, whatever the decision...

[the truth]

labours response was way too weak. they failed to produce a counter narrative
they made it way too easy for warmonger dave

[user104658]

Originally Posted by the truth

labours response was way too weak. they failed to produce a counter narrative
they made it way too easy for warmonger dave

The debate and vote was a charade, pure lip service as with Iraq. We were always going to drop the bombs. They just have to pretend to jump through the hoops and follow the process first.

Its like when I tell someone something and they then insist that I must phone a company bigwig because they won't accept what I'm saying, so I go into the back office and make a cup of coffee, come back through pretending to hang up the phone, and repeat exactly the same thing.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

The debate and vote was a charade, pure lip service as with Iraq. We were always going to drop the bombs. They just have to pretend to jump through the hoops and follow the process first.

Its like when I tell someone something and they then insist that I must phone a company bigwig because they won't accept what I'm saying, so I go into the back office and make a cup of coffee, come back through pretending to hang up the phone, and repeat exactly the same thing.

This view is just purely ridiculous. There was a DEMOCRATIC vote. The 'No's' LOST - Get over it.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

This view is just purely ridiculous. There was a DEMOCRATIC vote. The 'No's' LOST - Get over it.

I've already covered my reservations when it comes to the flaws with democracy. You don't agree and, as always, that isn't a surprise and... doesn't matter to me even a little. You seem to be struggling with that part.

"Get over it"? Are you a 16 year old American girl, Kirk?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

I've already covered my reservations when it comes to the flaws with democracy. You don't agree and, as always, that isn't a surprise and... doesn't matter to me even a little. You seem to be struggling with that part.

"Get over it"? Are you a 16 year old American girl, Kirk?

I am struggling with nothing mate - my powers of comprehension are not in question, and we can only make sense of the sensible.

Your 'covering of your reservations' do not make any sense at all. You live in a Democratic Country but claim not to hold with democracy, yet - quite evidently - your scathing condemnation of that democratic system on here is not reflective of your attitude in the real world because you obviously work, pay your taxes and accept the system for what it is.

If I felt as strongly as you claim to do on here, then I would be claiming benefits and working 'on the side' so that not one penny of my money contributed to all those bad decisions by this nasty government.

As for "Get over it"? Are you a 16 year old American girl, Kirk?" - No I'm not, only a very earnest member who can be forgiven that he sometimes thinks he is responding to a ludicrous post worthy of a '16 year old American girl'

I do believe however, that this is rich coming from someone so infamous for posting juvenile tosh - like the praying piss take retort to my applauding of Ammi's excellent post yesterday - a response that was not addressed to you, directed to you, nor mentioned you, and one which in no way justified your juvenile mockery.

[user104658]

"Brrp Brrp... Brrp Brrp... Oh hello. Yes I want to go to war. Oh you want to go to war too? So I can go ahead and process that? OK thanks for the clarification, I'll process that now.

*click*

To war, lads!!"