[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I agree and it is almost clear that again this govt; is not going to listen no matter his more gentle tones at present.

Now, I hate protest marches, I refused to take part in any as Student,even when the Lib Dems voted to treble tuition fees.
I was absolutely furious but would not take part in any protests publicly.

Why, because the vast majority of people who do march and protest, are doing so legally and appropriately.
However, what then happens is you get hangers on, who go way over the top, it may be as small as only a handful of people on the protest,who then get 'all' the protesters branded all sorts of wrong and disgraceful names and branded as louts and hooligans.

It gives the people who will never ever at all admit protesters have any genuine grievances at all, the opportunity to focus only on the negative side of the protest, such as a broken window or grafitti being daubed on places that should be respected.
They will never admit,the establishment help strongly to fuel such things as protests by their total unwillingness to listen, compromise and realise they could just have it wrong sometimes.

Protests will be pointless against this govt; some people say anyone has the right to protest but if they themselves don't agree with what is being protested about, then the protesters all of them, for only the actions of a tiny few, will be branded anarchists or militants.

People have every right to be furious at this election result, with so many rotten,heartless welfare cuts to come from a party that failed to win an outright majority last time in 2010, could only add 0.8%.less than 1%, to its vote this time, the opposition adding a measly near double that, 1.5% to their vote.
Yet now they can get, for roughly the same votes, more power to inflict more of their heartless policies,getting only around the same support they had in 2010.
People still actually wonder why voters and citizens are angry at that, lord help us.

Nearly two thirds of the UK voted against the policies of this govt; and uniquely for the first time, 'all' the opposition parties with that 64% of votes, are all against more severe austerity and welfare cuts of an extra 10 billion pounds.

Yet again, people wonder why some get really passionate and angry when that happens.
We again have a govt; falling well short of even just attracting 4 in 10 voters to their cause.
That is now 3 elections in a row where around two thirds of all voters have not supported the main party in govt:
If the leaders realised that and compromised, no protests would be necessary.
That is not sour grapes of someone being on the losing side, it is simply facts.

Marches are not the way however in my view, nowadays you can never be sure who will tag along just looking for trouble or who will join it on the way to cause destruction and get noticed for the news.
The media then get the chance to focus 'only' on the trouble rather than the valid argument being presented in the first place as to the march/protest.

It's all relative though isn't it?... Look at the 'graffiti' all over the pages of the Mail when they carved into Ralph Miliband.
Was he not a victim of war? It seemed acceptable then to scrawl offensive comments all over the place.
Being over cautious and not expressing your feelings publicly is entirely your right, there are those who are more demonstrative through words than deeds, activists and everything in between it has no baring on strength of feeling that they protest in this manner.
I totally agree that as with the student protests it will be this example of social disorder that will be used to tarnish anyone who chooses to march, protest or demonstrate against the proposed cuts.
This divide and conquer mentality is a proven formula and as such will be replicated to suit any issue sadly.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It's all relative though isn't it?... Look at the 'graffiti' all over the pages of the Mail when they carved into Ralph Miliband.
Was he not a victim of war? It seemed acceptable then to scrawl offensive comments all over the place.
Being over cautious and not expressing your feelings publicly is entirely your right, there are those who are more demonstrative through words than deeds, activists and everything in between it has no baring on strength of feeling that they protest in this manner.
I totally agree that as with the student protests it will be this example of social disorder that will be used to tarnish anyone who chooses to march, protest or demonstrate against the proposed cuts.
This divide and conquer mentality is a proven formula and as such will be replicated to suit any issue sadly.

Simple and pure double standards Kizzy.

I shouldn't but I'm goingto try to speak for you, if I am wrong I apologise.

I think and believe that you, and certainly I would, have supported the grievance of these marchers, even if it had been a Labour govt; now proposing to make an unspecified 10 billion pounds of cuts to the most vulnerable.

Therein lies the difference as to us.

[Kizzy]

Charlotte Church was a peaceful protester in Cardiff where there were no issues with social order, and is entitled to protest if she wants. Where are the freedoms in this country now?...

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Charlotte Church was a peaceful protester in Cardiff where there were no issues with social order, and is entitled to protest if she wants. Where are the freedoms in this country now?...

I agree Kizzy, they are free to protest,I just get annoyed that these celebrities think they hold some kind of clout,people will vote for what they want,afterall had that been aimed at Milliband or anyone else,it would still have been wrong imo.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Charlotte Church was a peaceful protester in Cardiff where there were no issues with social order, and is entitled to protest if she wants. Where are the freedoms in this country now?...

You are seriously missing the whole point of the particular post of mine which you are responding to, because in that post I do not deny anyone's right to participate in 'peaceful protest' but instead express my specfic opinion and view of Church's TRUE motives for suddenly acquiring a social and political conscience and becoming, first a voter for the first time, and secondly a Labour supporting 'peaceful protester'.

I am confounded though at ANYONE who can accept any kind of protest - peaceful or otherwise - at the results of a fairly held, constitutionally correct, democratic General Election, because what is TRULY being protested about and opposed here, is DEMOCRACY itself - let us not delude ourselves.

As BitOnTheSlide and others have already eloquently stated, we have a democratic procedure in place and the Conservatives won the election fair and square under that process.

It is notable that NO ONE on here was protesting about how UNFAIR that process was BEFORE the Election.

Indeed,when it was pointed out by certain members that despite securing almost 4 million votes UKIP has only ONE voice in Parliament whilst the SNP secured 56 seats with half of the UKIP number of votes, certain FM's were quick to point out that such was the system, and still others pointed out that the General Public had been presented with the opportunity to democratically change the system but did not avail themselve of it.

It is predictable that now the Left wing on here are defending these 'protests' because they are anti-Tory, but the inescapable truth is that peaceful or not, the protests are ludicrous when we have just held a General Election.

You ask: ''Where are the freedoms in this country now?'' while conveniently IGNORING the fact that these knobhead protesters are UTILISING just ONE of the many freedoms which our DEMOCRACY affords them. The very DEMOCRACY they are now protesting against.

The great and enraging IRONY here, is that while the peaceful element were availing themselves of the FREEDOM to demonstrate and protest, the inevitable 'professional anti-democratic, anti-Tory, anti-UK, anti-patriotic anarchist morons use that same freedom to desicrate a memorial to all the couragous patriotic women who FOUGHT and DIED for that very freedom.

If the Police ever catch the one/ones responsible, I will gladly VOLUNTER to put a bullet firmly and squarely in thecentre of their useless obsidian eyes.

If this is what the Left Wing stand for now, then I for one sincerely hope that the Labour Party NEVER win another General election ever again.

''Great Democracies
have always
encountered
violent
opposition from
mindless morons.''
Kirk Knowswell.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

You are seriously missing the whole point of the particular post of mine which you are responding to, because in that post I do not deny anyone's right to participate in 'peaceful protest' but instead express my specfic opinion and view of Church's TRUE motives for suddenly acquiring a social and political conscience and becoming, first a voter for the first time, and secondly a Labour supporting 'peaceful protester'.

I am confounded though at ANYONE who can accept any kind of protest - peaceful or otherwise - at the results of a fairly held, constitutionally correct, democratic General Election, because what is TRULY being protested about and opposed here, is DEMOCRACY itself - let us not delude ourselves.

As BitOnTheSlide and others have already eloquently stated, we have a democratic procedure in place and the Conservatives won the election fair and square under that process.

It is notable that NO ONE on here was protesting about how UNFAIR that process was BEFORE the Election.

Indeed,when it was pointed out by certain members that despite securing almost 4 million votes UKIP has only ONE voice in Parliament whilst the SNP secured 56 seats with half of the UKIP number of votes, certain FM's were quick to point out that such was the system, and still others pointed out that the General Public had been presented with the opportunity to democratically change the system but did not avail themselve of it.

It is predictable that now the Left wing on here are defending these 'protests' because they are anti-Tory, but the inescapable truth is that peaceful or not, the protests are ludicrous when we have just held a General Election.

You ask: ''Where are the freedoms in this country now?'' while conveniently IGNORING the fact that these knobhead protesters are UTILISING just ONE of the many freedoms which our DEMOCRACY affords them. The very DEMOCRACY they are now protesting against.

The great and enraging IRONY here, is that while the peaceful element were availing themselves of the FREEDOM to demonstrate and protest, the inevitable 'professional anti-democratic, anti-Tory, anti-UK, anti-patriotic anarchist morons use that same freedom to desicrate a memorial to all the couragous patriotic women who FOUGHT and DIED for that very freedom.

If the Police ever catch the one/ones responsible, I will gladly VOLUNTER to put a bullet firmly and squarely in thecentre of their useless obsidian eyes.

If this is what the Left Wing stand for now, then I for one sincerely hope that the Labour Party NEVER win another General election ever again.

''Great Democracies
have always
encountered
violent
opposition from
mindless morons.''
Kirk Knowswell.

She has as much right to protest against the austerity measures as anyone.
Why are you working yourself up about this and suggesting you would shoot people? Get some perspective.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

She has as much right to protest against the austerity measures as anyone.
Why are you working yourself up about this and suggesting you would shoot people? Get some perspective.

Bizarre Kizzy.

Note the she is now 'Labour supporting .....',as if that should be seen as a bad thing.

Has anyone any evidence this march has a thing to do with the Labour party, it is a march against austerity and the cuts in the main.
Or should people only be allowed to protest if a Labour govt; was in power,

I am definitely going on the next protest march against these cuts,no matter when or where it is.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Bizarre Kizzy.

Note the she is now 'Labour supporting .....',as if that should be seen as a bad thing.

Has anyone any evidence this march has a thing to do with the Labour party, it is a march against austerity and the cuts in the main.
Or should people only be allowed to protest if a Labour govt; was in power,

I am definitely going on the next protest march against these cuts,no matter when or where it is.

Good on ya Joey.

I just wish the tiny anarchist mentality types would stay at home for serious protests like this and leave it to the genuine majority.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Bizarre Kizzy.

Note the she is now 'Labour supporting',as if that should be seen as a bad thing.

Has anyone any evidence this march has a thing to do with the Labour party, it is a march against austerity and the cuts in the main.
Or should people only be allowed to protest if a Labour govt; was in power,

I am definitely going on the next protest march against these cuts,no matter when or where it is.

It's an anti austerity protest, all of a sudden everyone involved is an anti establishment rioter hell bent on wreaking havoc across the capital
They've been kettling and taking everyones details in parliament square so I wouldn't if I were you, I have a sneaking suspicion you would end up on some blacklist.

[bots]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Bizarre Kizzy.

Note the she is now 'Labour supporting .....',as if that should be seen as a bad thing.

Has anyone any evidence this march has a thing to do with the Labour party, it is a march against austerity and the cuts in the main.
Or should people only be allowed to protest if a Labour govt; was in power,

I am definitely going on the next protest march against these cuts,no matter when or where it is.

I get what you are saying, there is no indication that any of the major parties were represented in this riot. However ..... people cant have it every way ... in other threads people have been collectively pooling the "not conservative" parties together and saying that represented a vote against the conservatives, where the reality is it was actually support for the individual parties manifesto's nothing more. Indeed, the only true anti austerity parties were in Scotland and Wales, all the other parties had some proposed austerity plans, just implemented in different ways.

I fail to see how those that support democracy cannot see that this riot was purely and simply an attack on democracy.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

She has as much right to protest against the austerity measures as anyone.
Why are you working yourself up about this and suggesting you would shoot people? Get some perspective.

I write a post specifically detailing just WHY I suspect multi-millionaire Charlotte Church's reasons for becoming suddenly political. I DO NOT broach the subject of any rights she has to protest or otherwise. Despite this, you completely MISINTERPRET the entire point of my post and respond with:

A) ''Charlotte Church was a peaceful protester in Cardiff where there were no issues with social order, and is entitled to protest if she wants''

I answer you with a comprehensive, lucidly written post where I explain:

B) ''You are seriously missing the whole point of the particular post of mine which you are responding to, because in that post I do not deny anyone's right to participate in 'peaceful protest' but instead express my specific opinion and view of Church's TRUE motives for suddenly acquiring a social and political conscience and becoming, first a voter for the first time, and secondly a Labour supporting 'peaceful protester''.

Having had the courtesy of this explanation, you then respond with:

D) ''She has as much right to protest against the austerity measures as anyone.''



FUTILITY
fjʊˈtɪlɪti,fjuːˈtɪlɪti
noun
pointlessness or uselessness.

I rest my case.

As for; ''Why are you working yourself up about this and suggesting you would shoot people? Get some perspective.''

Why is it perfectly valid for protesters clutching bunches of 'sour grapes' to protest against the legitimate results of a democratically carried out Election -some of them angrily - but invalid and questionable when I react with anger about anti-democratic anarchist vermin rioting in our streets,injuring policemen, and defacing the War Memorial of courageous women who gave their lives for this country.

In asking YOUR question of me though, you do perfectly sum up in a nutshell the great problem on here.

1) Any view that does not fit in with the majority Left Wing view is wrong.
2) Anyone expressing any view which does not fit in with the majority Left Wing view needs to get some 'perspective'.
3) Only Left wingers can legitimately be 'moved' by an event to post their opinion.
4) Anyone not Left wing who is sufficiently 'moved' by an event to actually post is then queried by the Left Wing as to why they are ''working'' themselves ''up''.

I care as much for my causes as you do yours and my reverence for our fallen war heroes is as deep as your affection is for your hero Russell Brand.

My hatred for the useless scum who defaced the Women's world war 2 memorial is genuine, and completely cold and rationally I will repeat:

I would volunteer to shoot the disgusting bastards straight between the eyes.

How's that for an anti-democratic, anti-constitutional, anti-law and order, perspective?

Am I becoming Left wing?

[bots]

The labour party and left wing politics don't have exclusivity over compassion and helping those with needs in our society. The approach to achieving it is just not the same.

As a tory supporter I have had nothing but contempt for IDS since he first appeared as their new leader. I think it is a serious error of judgement on Cameron's part to re-appoint him to his cabinet. He should have been relegated to the back benches. I'm always highly suspicious when people end up in posts clearly above their pay grade like IDS has had all through his career. He must have some very powerful friends.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I write a post specifically detailing just WHY I suspect multi-millionaire Charlotte Church's reasons for becoming suddenly political. I DO NOT broach the subject of any rights she has to protest or otherwise. Despite this, you completely MISINTERPRET the entire point of my post and respond with:

A) ''Charlotte Church was a peaceful protester in Cardiff where there were no issues with social order, and is entitled to protest if she wants''

I answer you with a comprehensive, lucidly written post where I explain:

B) ''You are seriously missing the whole point of the particular post of mine which you are responding to, because in that post I do not deny anyone's right to participate in 'peaceful protest' but instead express my specific opinion and view of Church's TRUE motives for suddenly acquiring a social and political conscience and becoming, first a voter for the first time, and secondly a Labour supporting 'peaceful protester''.

Having had the courtesy of this explanation, you then respond with:

D) ''She has as much right to protest against the austerity measures as anyone.''



FUTILITY
fjʊˈtɪlɪti,fjuːˈtɪlɪti
noun
pointlessness or uselessness.

I rest my case.

As for; ''Why are you working yourself up about this and suggesting you would shoot people? Get some perspective.''

Why is it perfectly valid for protesters clutching bunches of 'sour grapes' to protest against the legitimate results of a democratically carried out Election -some of them angrily - but invalid and questionable when I react with anger about anti-democratic anarchist vermin rioting in our streets,injuring policemen, and defacing the War Memorial of courageous women who gave their lives for this country.

In asking YOUR question of me though, you do perfectly sum up in a nutshell the great problem on here.

1) Any view that does not fit in with the majority Left Wing view is wrong.
2) Anyone expressing any view which does not fit in with the majority Left Wing view needs to get some 'perspective'.
3) Only Left wingers can legitimately be 'moved' by an event to post their opinion.
4) Anyone not Left wing who is sufficiently 'moved' by an event to actually post is then queried by the Left Wing as to why they are ''working'' themselves ''up''.

I care as much for my causes as you do yours and my reverence for our fallen war heroes is as deep as your affection is for your hero Russell Brand.

My hatred for the useless scum who defaced the Women's world war 2 memorial is genuine, and completely cold and rationally I will repeat:

I would volunteer to shoot the disgusting bastards straight between the eyes.

How's that for an anti-democratic, anti-constitutional, anti-law and order, perspective?

Am I becoming Left wing?

No you're not becoming left wing you're becoming irrational. She wasn't protesting against the democratic process, just the proposed austerity cuts.
I think you're confusing yourself, she didn't attend the London protest where the disorder took place... She marched in Cardiff to the Aneurin Bevan memorial.
When you start suggesting actual violence then I'm sorry for me the conversation is over.

[Jay.]

peaceful protests > that mess

the power of that media tho eh

[Kizzy]

Personally I think there will be a reshuffle of constituencies if they aim to reduce the amount of MPs, it will be in the conservatives favour naturally.
Yes it will effectively be gerrymandering but we'll be complicit as it will be spun as a positive cost cutting exercise... :/

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Personally I think there will be a reshuffle of constituencies if they aim to reduce the amount of MPs, it will be in the conservatives favour naturally.
Yes it will effectively be gerrymandering but we'll be complicit as it will be spun as a positive cost cutting exercise... :/

That will be hard to get through the Lords Kizzy, a lot of Lib Dems are now in the Lords, the Conservatives are a minority in the Lords now.

That is one result of the last govt;

It may well be there will little assistance to this govt; particularly to constitutional reform now.
It was revealed that he is not now going to try to cut the number of MPs elected now, it seems.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

That will be hard to get through the Lords Kizzy, a lot of Lib Dems are now in the Lords, the Conservatives are a minority in the Lords now.

That is one result of the last govt;

It may well be there will little assistance to this govt; particularly to constitutional reform now.
It was revealed that he is not now going to try to cut the number of MPs elected now, it seems.

I don't share your optimism Joey, I think they will rewrite the rule book to suit themselves with little resistance. I suspect the "British Bill of Rights" will confirm this.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Personally I think there will be a reshuffle of constituencies if they aim to reduce the amount of MPs, it will be in the conservatives favour naturally.
Yes it will effectively be gerrymandering but we'll be complicit as it will be spun as a positive cost cutting exercise... :/

This is a certainty Kizzy, the only reason it hasn't already happened is because the Lib Dems blocked it. With a Tory majority it'll be pushed through alongside every single other thing that the Lib Dems stopped. Not that they did a great job of stopping much.

They will redefine the constituency boundaries to favour conservative gains at the next GE. I suspect we're stuck with the Tories for at least 10 years now.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This is a certainty Kizzy, the only reason it hasn't already happened is because the Lib Dems blocked it. With a Tory majority it'll be pushed through alongside every single other thing that the Lib Dems stopped. Not that they did a great job of stopping much.

They will redefine the constituency boundaries to favour conservative gains at the next GE. I suspect we're stuck with the Tories for at least 10 years now.

I am hoping it goes on so long in the Commons it gets talked out TS,I believe,as you do, they will try to do it but may get too tied up as to the EU issue to succeed.
A larger majority and I would have said it was sure to get through,I feel a bit more optimistic it will now hit very bad hiccups.

[user104658]

I'm sorry but "that's tough, just like it or lump it" is a political stance that I can never get on board with and don't believe that anyone should. It's tantamount to apathy. If you don't like your country's politics you should damn well stand up and make it very, very clear. Whether you're with the majority or a lone voice against millions.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm sorry but "that's tough, just like it or lump it" is a political stance that I can never get on board with and don't believe that anyone should. It's tantamount to apathy. If you don't like your country's politics you should damn well stand up and make it very, very clear. Whether you're with the majority or a lone voice against millions.

I give up TS.
the AV referendum was handed to Clegg to present,after the tuition fees vote, when the NHS re-organsation was in play too, at a time in 2011,when it was seen the Lib Dems were crashing in popularity.

Had that been held a few months after the 2010 election, I think it would have got a better result.
David Cameron stunned the Lib Dems by actually then campaigning against AV.
It would not have altered things that much but we have had a high profile election for a lot of parties this time.

I do not like UKIP,I'd never support them, I said this yesterday,however with over 3,800,000 voters behind them, they can only have a single MP.
What a disgrace that really is when you think about it.
Sorry for me that also doesn't come close to real democracy now.
This should not be allowed to carry on.

I agree 100% with you, no voters should just have to put up with that,what an arrogant dismissal of peoples efforts to vote.
They make the effort to go out and vote,they deserve far better,and should be able to demand it too, than the govts; they have had over the last 10 years over 3 elections now.

[Crimson Dynamo]

tells you all you need to know about a few, probably drunk or high, young punks who contribute nothing, know nothing and will amount to nothing

I feel sorry for the poor police who have to deal with idiots like this.

smh

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

"Hard-left activists desecrated a war memorial " nah thugs
"Hate mob in No.10 rampage" nah thugs.
"Anarchists and hard-line socialists unwilling to accept Thursday's election result protested violently in Whitehall" nah violent thugs caused chaos don't care about the cause.
"Dozens of protesters, many of them wearing masks or balaclavas tried to push their way through police lines" less threatening that a lone black man shouting but where are the batons??
.................................................. .................

aside from that. sad state of affairs.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Ithinkiloveyoutoo

"Hard-left activists desecrated a war memorial " nah thugs
"Hate mob in No.10 rampage" nah thugs.
"Anarchists and hard-line socialists unwilling to accept Thursday's election result protested violently in Whitehall" nah violent thugs caused chaos don't care about the cause.
"Dozens of protesters, many of them wearing masks or balaclavas tried to push their way through police lines" less threatening that a lone black man shouting but where are the batons??
.................................................. .................

aside from that. sad state of affairs.

at best there were 100 people

it was like a hipsters convention, drinking their Starbucks, texting on their Iphonee 5s and shouting about tory scum and anarchy

you could not make it up

[billy123]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

at best there were 100 people

it was like a hipsters convention, drinking their Starbucks, texting on their Iphonee 5s and shouting about tory scum and anarchy

you could not make it up

And yet right wingers are desperate to try and tar the left with violently assaulting a statue when its obvious to any sane person that it was a single prick with a spray can.
It obviously eases the feeling of shame for some here to concentrate on the actions of one dickhead.