[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Swan

You can make all the distinctions you like between men and trans women, but no matter how you feel, every single trans women ever, then, now, and in future generations start out as a man/men. I just find it completely odd how you say "well, it's men who are to blame, not trans women", biologically they're the exact same thing.

Be free, live your life, don't get me wrong, but you're looking at this whole situation from a black and white standpoint. It is a very complex situation, but at times it really isn't.

It’s quite bold to say “you’re looking at it from a black and white POV” while simultaneously refusing to recognise the nuanced and real distinction between a trans women and a cis men.

People are more than their genitals and reproductive systems. The reason trans people exist is because their mental identity doesn’t match their physical identity, therein lies the key difference between a trans women and a cis man. Just because you might be happy to disregard that as valid, it doesn’t make it so.

I do wonder is those celebrating realise that the next time a cis women goes into a woman’s only space, and is reported because someone thinks she’s trans, it will be a male police officer who strip searches her to check, unless she carries her birth certificate with her everywhere she goes. Horrific.

[Swan]

Originally Posted by BBXX

It’s quite bold to say “you’re looking at it from a black and white POV” while simultaneously refusing to recognise the nuanced and real distinction between a trans women and a cis men.

People are more than their genitals and reproductive systems. The reason trans people exist is because their mental identity doesn’t match their physical identity, therein lies the key difference between a trans women and a cis man. Just because you might be happy to disregard that as valid, it doesn’t make it so.

I do wonder is those celebrating realise that the next time a cis women goes into a woman’s only space, and is reported because someone thinks she’s trans, it will be a male police officer who strip searches her to check, unless she carries her birth certificate with her everywhere she goes. Horrific.

Did i not say it's a complex situation in that very same sentence?

BIB - One, im not celebrating, this affects biological women, and trans women, not me. Two, that scenario you're describing has never, ever happened, it's not even very rare, it's just not a thing.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Transwomen are biological men though no matter how hard you try to emotionally blackmail people into a corner it's a fact that will never change. The only requirement to being a transwomen is that you're biologically male.

A gay cis man has the same biological real estate than a straight cis man, but I am sure you'd be willing to agree that they are really not a sexual-assault risk to cis women, right? So why can't the same be suggested for trans women?

Sexual assault and abuse to cis women at the hand of cis men is a mentally-led issue, not because they have a penis, which is why it's completely valid to say trans-women are not to blame for the sexual crimes at the hands of straight cis men in the same way it's valid to say gay men are not to blame for the sexual assault crimes from straight men.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Swan

Did i not say it's a complex situation in that very same sentence?

"but at times it really isn't" and you seemed to be implying Jessica's point wasn't.

Two, that scenario you're describing has never, ever happened, it's not even very rare, it's just not a thing.

Not previously no, because it's not been illegal for trans women to be in women's only spaces in the way it is now.

It's already been said that male officers will now strip search trans women. So now, if a cis women is accused of being trans she has one of two options:

1. Be strip searched by a male officer or
2. Prove she is a cis woman (how?)

One is worse than the other of course, but both are horrible scenarios.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by BBXX

A gay cis man has the same biological real estate than a straight cis man, but I am sure you'd be willing to agree that they are really not a sexual-assault risk to cis women, right? So why can't the same be suggested for trans women?

Sexual assault and abuse to cis women at the hand of cis men is a mentally-led issue, not because they have a penis, which is why it's completely valid to say trans-women are not to blame for the sexual crimes at the hands of straight cis men in the same way it's valid to say gay men are not to blame for the sexual assault crimes from straight men.

Sure but as with transwomen there's no way to tell if a gay man is actually gay or just pretending to be gay, that's why all gay men are not allowed in female only spaces. Safeguarding bans all biological males to protect women even though most biological men won't be a threat.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Sure but as with transwomen there's no way to tell if a gay man is actually gay or just pretending to be gay, that's why all gay men are not allowed in female only spaces. Safeguarding bans all biological males to protect women even though most biological men won't be a threat.

Gay men identify as men, that's why they aren't allowed in women's spaces.

Until now, of course. Now identity doesn't matter so now a gay trans man will be in allowed in women's spaces, beard and testosterone patch included.

I said I'd stop but I'm too opinionated but I do feel like I am just repeating myself, which is my bad. We're allowed not to agree, I don't want to make it seem like my incessant opinions are trying to convince you otherwise, it's too emotive and complex a subject for people just to change their minds because of a stranger on the internet

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Gay men identify as men, that's why they aren't allowed in women's spaces.

Until now, of course. Now identity doesn't matter so now a gay trans man will be in allowed in women's spaces, beard and testosterone patch included.

I said I'd stop but I'm too opinionated but I do feel like I am just repeating myself, which is my bad. We're allowed not to agree, I don't want to make it seem like my incessant opinions are trying to convince you otherwise, it's too emotive and complex a subject for people just to change their minds because of a stranger on the internet

Now you can see why we're jaded, no matter how much logic you use it won't change a thing here. Trans women are the easy target and they'll always be ridiculed and invalidated on this forum. It's incredibly frustrating and it's been going on for years. I know trans people both irl and online, I've even lived in the same household as a trans woman and I've never felt threatened by any of them. However the people demonising them have zero personal experience or anecdotes related to the so called villains (human beings) we're discussing.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

Now you can see why we're jaded, no matter how much logic you use it won't change a thing here. Trans women are the easy target and they'll always be ridiculed and invalidated on this forum. It's incredibly frustrating and it's been going on for years. I know trans people both irl and online, I've even lived in the same household as a trans woman and I've never felt threatened by any of them. However the people demonising them have zero personal experience or anecdotes related to the so called villains (human beings) we're discussing.

Logic mmhmm

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

Now you can see why we're jaded, no matter how much logic you use it won't change a thing here. Trans women are the easy target and they'll always be ridiculed and invalidated on this forum. It's incredibly frustrating and it's been going on for years. I know trans people both irl and online, I've even lived in the same household as a trans woman and I've never felt threatened by any of them. However the people demonising them have zero personal experience or anecdotes related to the so called villains (human beings) we're discussing.

Not true Jessica, you have no idea about my real experiences, but I can tell you your assumptions are wrong.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Gay men identify as men, that's why they aren't allowed in women's spaces.

Until now, of course. Now identity doesn't matter so now a gay trans man will be in allowed in women's spaces, beard and testosterone patch included.

I said I'd stop but I'm too opinionated but I do feel like I am just repeating myself, which is my bad. We're allowed not to agree, I don't want to make it seem like my incessant opinions are trying to convince you otherwise, it's too emotive and complex a subject for people just to change their minds because of a stranger on the internet

Gay men are biological men as are transwomen. Women need female only spaces because of biological differences

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Not true Jessica, you have no idea about my real experiences, but I can tell you your assumptions are wrong.

If someone on this forum had a bad experience with a trans person they'd be shouting it from the rooftops because it proves a point for them that they have no basis behind otherwise.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

If someone on this forum had a bad experience with a trans person they'd be shouting it from the rooftops because it proves a point for them that they have no basis behind otherwise.

Why did you jump to bad experiences straight away? I know a transwoman through work, I haven't had any bad experiences. I was just saying that just because people have their opinions here it doesn't mean that they don't know transpeople irl

[Cherie]

Nobody has answered my question as to why the trans protesters defaced a statue of a Suffragette ...why do they hate our rights so much?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Nobody has answered my question as to why the trans protesters defaced a statue of a Suffragette ...why do they hate our rights so much?

What a conundrum

[Barry.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Nobody has answered my question as to why the trans protesters defaced a statue of a Suffragette ...why do they hate our rights so much?

There’s always a few bad apples, however, do we know it was a trans that did that? Or are we assuming? Could of been an ally of the trans community

[Barry.]

Oh sorry Cherie just read the that again. Some protesters are vandals, and that’s why they join in the protest

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Barry.

Oh sorry Cherie just read the that again. Some protesters are vandals, and that’s why they join in the protest

Bingo...and some are jumping on the self ID bandwagon so they can harrass women.... it needs to be stopped and hopefully the Supreme Court Judgement will achieve that..

[arista]

[arista]

BBC News Text :
[The Daily Express reports that campaigners
who won the landmark Supreme Court ruling
on the definition of a woman are facing a campaign
of "death threats and abuse"]

[arista]

BBC News Text :
[The Daily Telegraph is another paper
still leading with the fallout from the
gender ruling.
It says the prime minister has refused
to stop a plot by ministers to "thwart" the judgment.
It writes Labour ministers and MPs
will meet this week to discuss how to promote
trans rights following the landmark judgement.]

[user104658]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Gay men identify as men, that's why they aren't allowed in women's spaces.

Until now, of course. Now identity doesn't matter so now a gay trans man will be in allowed in women's spaces, beard and testosterone patch included.

I said I'd stop but I'm too opinionated but I do feel like I am just repeating myself, which is my bad. We're allowed not to agree, I don't want to make it seem like my incessant opinions are trying to convince you otherwise, it's too emotive and complex a subject for people just to change their minds because of a stranger on the internet

I mean can we just cut to the chase and say it like it is here: a trans man no matter how much T they've taken or how long their beard is, is highly unlikely to attack or harass a woman in a changing area or bathroom, whereas an autogynephilic male self-IDing as a woman is a clear risk, in multiple ways, even if it's not of carrying out a physical attack.

If the claim is that some self-IDing trans women are not autogynephiles... Well, that claim is simply false/a lie. It exists as a notable percentage of the trans community. The refusal to (for want of a better word) "separate out" the different motivations between trans identities and the refusal to even acknowledge that those motivations can be wildly different - that most are harmless lifestyle choices, but some are sexually motivated and rooted in sometimes serious comorbid mental health issues - is part of what's led to this entire issue for all. "That Doesn't Happen" is the mantra. It does happen.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by arista

BBC News Text :
[The Daily Express reports that campaigners
who won the landmark Supreme Court ruling
on the definition of a woman are facing a campaign
of "death threats and abuse"]

Are these the same people who we are told just want to live their lives quietly? Can people wake up these men are not trans per se ...and never have been

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Barry.

Oh sorry Cherie just read the that again. Some protesters are vandals, and that’s why they join in the protest

Exactly - the same happens with every protest, they’ll be people who vandalise things because that’s what they do.

Jumping on it like some kind of point is super cheap and a silly tactic. Same as those burning things last summer, and racially abusing strangers, etc… those people just needed an excuse and a protest allowed that.

The same goes for every protest in history and every protest in the future.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Are these the same people who we are told just want to live their lives quietly? Can people wake up these men are not trans per se ...and never have been

I don’t know, are they the same people?

What’s your point? Radicals exist in every single demographic in life. I don’t think anyone is disputing that.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I don’t know, are they the same people?

What’s your point? Radicals exist in every single demographic in life. I don’t think anyone is disputing that.

Are they not, why do they want them accessing womens spaces then with impunity?

Why did Kathleen Stock lose her job?