[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Gay men are biological men as are transwomen. Women need female only spaces because of biological differences

I understand, but what biological differences determine this female-only space?

Is it the fact they have a penis? What is they are post-op and not longer have a penis? Is it because they don’t have the reproductive organs? If so, what about women who have had a hysterectomy? Is it because of breasts? What about women who have had a mastectomy? Or is it about chromosomes - in which case what about the people who have chromosomal anomalies like intersex people?

I’m being genuine here - if we are serious about pigeon-holing someone’s gender to their sexual/reproductive organs what about those people who no longer have those?

I understand female only spaces are important, but don’t you see how reductive it is to define a woman purely by her sexual real estate and baby-making organs?

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Cherie

[/B]

Are they not, why do they want them accessing womens spaces then with impunity?

Why did Kathleen Stock lose her job?

I’m talking about the people giving death threats. Radicals exist in every group?

Is it a common opinion of yours that legitimate reasonable people of a certain demographic should pay the price for the actions of a bad minority within the same community?

If so, it’s a very toxic mentality. If not, why do you do it with this group?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I don’t know, are they the same people?

What’s your point? Radicals exist in every single demographic in life. I don’t think anyone is disputing that.

See I agree with this, but yes people are disputing it, that's the problem; it "being disputed" is a cornerstone of where the whole discussion has gone so badly south... a refusal to admit that within trans communities, there are a number of outliers/a percentage -- not the majority, but not an insignificant number -- who are NOT acting in good faith and are self-IDing as women for extremely problematic reasons and with questionable motivation, often sexual, sometimes dangerous. Acknowledging that these people exist - that "radicals" (those with motivations outside the norm, who will act in ways outside the norm) exist in all demographics. Including the trans community. And that is a risk to women's spaces that can't be simply dismissed out of hand.

I understand, but what biological differences determine this female-only space?

Is it the fact they have a penis? What is they are post-op and not longer have a penis? Is it because they don’t have the reproductive organs? If so, what about women who have had a hysterectomy? Is it because of breasts? What about women who have had a mastectomy? Or is it about chromosomes - in which case what about the people who have chromosomal anomalies like intersex people?

I’m being genuine here - if we are serious about pigeon-holing someone’s gender to their sexual/reproductive organs what about those people who no longer have those?

I understand female only spaces are important, but don’t you see how reductive it is to define a woman purely by her sexual real estate and baby-making organs?

I also agree that this ruling is not a full stop and does introduce a whole host of further questions and issues that no one has the answer to yet however I would suggest that this is an important step towards the proper conversations that need to be had about finding the best and safest way forward. This ruling is a starting point not a conclusion. Any ability to discuss these issues properly from an academic/safeguarding perspective has been "off the table" for YEARS due to, being blunt, the strict adherence to "stonewalling" tactics by the LGBTQ community when it comes to this issue, that would paint any attempt at reasonable discussion that isn't 100% unquestioningly trans-positive as "transphobic", accuracy and facts be damned. University professors with vast experience were being doxxed, harassed, threatened and sometimes fired for daring to carry out perfectly ethical research for crying out loud. The damage that has been done by these tactics is huge. Absolutely massive. It will take decades to repair. I get what you're saying about these being "outlying elements of the community" but honestly... increasingly less outlying, increasingly vocal, increasingly standard/accepted tactics and a massive mess left in their wake. You can say that you've always disagreed with those tactics but you have to acknowledge that it happened.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I’m talking about the people giving death threats. Radicals exist in every group?

Is it a common opinion of yours that legitimate reasonable people of a certain demographic should pay the price for the actions of a bad minority within the same community?

If so, it’s a very toxic mentality. If not, why do you do it with this group?

and its a common opinion of yours that women should pay the price for a bad minority .... that is a toxic mentality as well, why do you feel women should pay the price with their safety, their jobs, their places on podiums, as I have said previously if transwomen had supported women on this might be in a different place, instead they threw their lot in with people acting in bad faith....

I think this was a very pertinent point made by Susan Smith, I dont know how old you are but this is very relevant

For a long time, women had been accommodating, they hadn't raised too many objections. And it was only when people really started to make our lives intolerable that we started to have to fight back."


Women have been very accommodating, its only since self ID and there has been an explosion of Marchs on transrights calling for women to be decapitated, women being assaulted, calling us bigots, women being called Nazis that the problems have started, and no it has nothing to do with bathrooms, the trans community remained quiet while all these bad faith men hijacked their community, you cannot deny that has happened surely? yet you call me toxic....I literally give up

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

and its a common opinion of yours that women should pay the price for a bad minority .... that is a toxic mentality as well, why do you feel women should pay the price with their safety, their jobs, their places on podiums, as I have said previously if transwomen had supported women on this might be in a different place, instead they threw their lot in with people acting in bad faith....

I think this was a very pertinent point made by Susan Smith, I dont know how old you are but this is very relevant

For a long time, women had been accommodating, they hadn't raised too many objections. And it was only when people really started to make our lives intolerable that we started to have to fight back."


Women have been very accommodating, its only since self ID and there has been an explosion of Marchs on transrights calling for women to be decapitated, women being assaulted, calling us bigots, women being called Nazis that the problems have started, and no it has nothing to do with bathrooms, the trans community remained quiet while all these bad faith men hijacked their community, you cannot deny that has happened surely? yet you call me toxic....I literally give up

I agree and it's not just that -- there's a clear disparity. Men raising objections or outright mocking do NOT get the same violent backlash that women get. Not even 10% of it. I say that from direct experience - people don't give a **** that I'm a "TERFy" straight male, it's basically expected. Women are expected to be accepting and accommodating, and treated as "vile" if they dare to be anything else, even if it's done intellectually and politely.

And (again being blunt) most of that rhetoric comes from -- some trans women but frankly... OVERWHELMINGLY from LGBTQ males. It's just another form of the same-old-same-old male privilege, and has leaned into some (strange, entirely false) notion that "gay men can't be misogynists" or that threats from men in the gay community towards women are somehow "less of an issue" than straight-male-female violence.

"What about trans men" is thrown in almost as some sort of kicker but (more bluntness incoming) trans men in this debate are pretty much collateral damage, whether that's in refusal to acknowledge the complex psychological issues facing adolescent girls, or the "trans men in male bathrooms" issue. Used as ammo. Unsurprising because... well... they were born female, so why not?

This is the crux of it really.

There is no real issue with trans men using male bathrooms, it's not like-for-like, men's toilets don't need protecting. The only issue is in fact the risk TO young clearly-female-featured trans boys walking into a men's public toilet.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

I agree and it's not just that -- there's a clear disparity. Men raising objections or outright mocking do NOT get the same violent backlash that women get. Not even 10% of it. I say that from direct experience - people don't give a **** that I'm a "TERFy" straight male, it's basically expected. Women are expected to be accepting and accommodating, and treated as "vile" if they dare to be anything else, even if it's done intellectually and politely.

And (again being blunt) most of that rhetoric comes from -- some trans women but frankly... OVERWHELMINGLY from LGBTQ males. It's just another form of the same-old-same-old male privilege, and has leaned into some (strange, entirely false) notion that "gay men can't be misogynists" or that threats from men in the gay community towards women are somehow "less of an issue" than straight-male-female violence.

"What about trans men" is thrown in almost as some sort of kicker but (more bluntness incoming) trans men in this debate are pretty much collateral damage, whether that's in refusal to acknowledge the complex psychological issues facing adolescent girls, or the "trans men in male bathrooms" issue. Used as ammo. Unsurprising because... well... they were born female, so why not?

This is the crux of it really.

There is no real issue with trans men using male bathrooms, it's not like-for-like, men's toilets don't need protecting. The only issue is in fact the risk TO young clearly-female-featured trans boys walking into a men's public toilet.

I was actually going to mention that even in the context of this thread again its the women being called names and told to get over themselves, very sad times

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

See I agree with this, but yes people are disputing it, that's the problem; it "being disputed" is a cornerstone of where the whole discussion has gone so badly south... a refusal to admit that within trans communities, there are a number of outliers/a percentage -- not the majority, but not an insignificant number -- who are NOT acting in good faith and are self-IDing as women for extremely problematic reasons and with questionable motivation, often sexual, sometimes dangerous. Acknowledging that these people exist - that "radicals" (those with motivations outside the norm, who will act in ways outside the norm) exist in all demographics. Including the trans community. And that is a risk to women's spaces that can't be simply dismissed out of hand.

It's important people don't dispute it, but you have to realise the difficulty when a minority of a minority acting badly is used as an argument in critique of a marginalised demographic.

It happens often - people use negative examples of tiny proportions of a minority group to "prove their point". For example, they spent their time calling homosexuals pedophiles and then one actually is it's a "see I told you".

This creates an extremely difficult balance where people should criticise the bad person, without giving credence to the insinuations that it's a common occurrence within X community.

Sorry, but it's happened in this thread continuously. Minute examples are being used to insinuate it's a more common issue than it actually is. Not acknowledging that isn't disputing it's happening, but it is ignoring the idea it's a common theme.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I understand, but what biological differences determine this female-only space?



Is it the fact they have a penis? What is they are post-op and not longer have a penis? Is it because they don’t have the reproductive organs? If so, what about women who have had a hysterectomy? Is it because of breasts? What about women who have had a mastectomy? Or is it about chromosomes - in which case what about the people who have chromosomal anomalies like intersex people?



I’m being genuine here - if we are serious about pigeon-holing someone’s gender to their sexual/reproductive organs what about those people who no longer have those?



I understand female only spaces are important, but don’t you see how reductive it is to define a woman purely by her sexual real estate and baby-making organs?

What biological differences? Ugh. No.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Cherie

and its a common opinion of yours that women should pay the price for a bad minority .... that is a toxic mentality as well, why do you feel women should pay the price with their safety...

It's not that at all. Women's safety is one of primary concerns - all the people in my life I care about most are women so their safety is importance to me. My point has always remained that trans women aren't a risk to cis women's safety and while I understand Self-ID creates an opportunity for cis men to take advantage of that, I don't believe the answer is to remove trans women's rights and put them at risk, OR that the actions of doing that will have any positive effect towards women's safety. If I really thought it would make women safer, I would find better validity to it but I don't believe it does because I think cis men will do whatever it takes to commit that crime anyway.

Your argument is legitimate from a black and white perspective, but I truly believes it lacks nuance. Let's look at it from this scenario: straight men suggest that sharing a space with gay men makes them uncomfortable. Would you advocate that to make straight men feel safer it would be better to have separate gay and straight changing facilities? Why should straight men's comfortability be ignored just so gay men's freedoms get to remain intact?

Aside from that, one of my main disagreements for this ruling is not anything to do with trans people, it's because I feel it's actually a negative for all women. Reducing their identity to their reproductive system and their vagina feels reductive and gross and I worry about women having to 'prove' they are women to access certain spaces and as stated above, I don't think this makes women any safer at all and so none of this feels like a win for women at all. They're not any safer and in addition their identity is being reduced to incubators and vaginas.

Women have been very accommodating, its only since self ID and there has been an explosion of Marchs on transrights calling for women to be decapitated, women being assaulted, calling us bigots, women being called Nazis that the problems have started, and no it has nothing to do with bathrooms

I don't condone any of that, but in the same way that the riots last summer with racial attacks and widespread vandalism doesn't represent every person who has issues with immigration, the above doesn't represent the entirety of the trans community.

the trans community remained quiet while all these bad faith men hijacked their community, you cannot deny that has happened surely? yet you call me toxic....I literally give up

I can't really deny it or not. I've not spoken to every trans person to know there is widespread silence. I don't believe any demographic - whether it's based on race, sexuality, gender, religion, politics, is responsible for speaking as a collective up on the extremists within their community.

In the same way I don't expect everyone who voted Reform to speak out on every attack on immigrants, for example.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What biological differences? Ugh. No.

I didn't mean to imply there was no biological differences - of course I know there are - I was questioning which create that distinction for you and how I think defining someone as man or woman based purely on their biological make-up can be problematic.

The reason I believe this is because I believe there is a difference between sex and gender.

None of this has been me dismissing the difference biologically between someone born a man and someone born a woman, but that someone's gender-identity should boil down to more than what their reproductive system is, that's all.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by BBXX

It's important people don't dispute it, but you have to realise the difficulty when a minority of a minority acting badly is used as an argument in critique of a marginalised demographic.

It happens often - people use negative examples of tiny proportions of a minority group to "prove their point". For example, they spent their time calling homosexuals pedophiles and then one actually is it's a "see I told you".

This creates an extremely difficult balance where people should criticise the bad person, without giving credence to the insinuations that it's a common occurrence within X community.

Sorry, but it's happened in this thread continuously. Minute examples are being used to insinuate it's a more common issue than it actually is. Not acknowledging that isn't disputing it's happening, but it is ignoring the idea it's a common theme.

I don't disagree but the fact that it's "the minority of a minority" is all the more reason for it to be called out as a problem that does happen, rather than ignored and again I'll use the term "stonewalled" as the main line of defense -- the "That Doesn't Happen" mantra I mentioned, which feels like gaslighting, vs the "That rarely happens and we need to minimise the risk of it ever happening" -- a nuanced discussion that just isn't, or hasn't been, allowed to happen. People have been threatened, attacked and have lost their livelihoods for even attempting to have that discussion openly. I hope that now changes, but I think it'll still take time, it's still going to be a fraught issue.

[Vicky.]

ToThe equivalent here would be if gay men felt they needed a space away from straight men, not the other way sround. And I don't see the issue if they did? They have in the past because of straight mens behaviour, stuff like gay bars, gay only groups etc.

(Reply to BBX, quoting is awkward on my phone)

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

ToThe equivalent here would be if gay men felt they needed a space away from straight men, not the other way sround. And I don't see the issue if they did? They have in the past because of straight mens behaviour, stuff like gay bars, gay only groups etc.

(Reply to BBX, quoting is awkward on my phone)

The reason I did it that way around was because on the fact gay man find men attractive and straight men finding that uncomfortable leading to the exclusion of gay men in male spaces would be considered discriminatory. Also because in both cases it’s the minority and marginalised community being ostracised in both cases. (I’m not saying women aren’t marginalised but comparatively to the trans community it’s quite different and they’re not the minority)

However, even in your example, gay spaces are rarely straight-excluding and even social clubs like LGBT sports teams are often inclusive of all (gay, straight, trans, women) and things like gay running groups, book clubs etc are done as a way to meet other gay people, rather than exclude straight people.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by BBXX

The reason I did it that way around was because on the fact gay man find men attractive and straight men finding that uncomfortable leading to the exclusion of gay men in male spaces would be considered discriminatory. Also because in both cases it’s the minority and marginalised community being ostracised in both cases. (I’m not saying women aren’t marginalised but comparatively to the trans community it’s quite different and they’re not the minority)

I'm going to be controversial here and say that with the example of toilets/changing facilities... it's actually the other way around that the numbers need to be considered. I fully appreciate the need to consider minorities at, for example, a political representation level where the risk is being drowned out / over-ruled by majority opinion arbitrarily and without consideration, but in the case of access to public spaces and risk/comfort, the balance being towards the comfort of the people who will most commonly be using that space is ... actually the primary consideration.

It's difficult to use bathrooms and changing to illustrate this well but you can easily do it with violence against women shelters, where there needs to be a feeling of safety not only in male threats not being present, but in it being not possible for male threats to be present (the possibility is in itself a direct concern). Because 99.9% off people accessing that space will be women, coming from an abusive situation... unfortunately yes, those people do have to be the primary consideration, and that 99.9% can't be disproportionately impacted to accommodate a minority situation. I appreciate that this is a difficult thing to consider.

I would basically counter (as I usually do) that the solution is to head in the direction of individual, self-contained, securable units (toilets, changing, whatever) where this doesn't need to be a concern in the first place. The answer is not shoehorning a situation that, simply, I suspect doesn't HAVE a solution that works for everyone. It does not exist.

[arista]

This is why Tomorrow PM Starmer
should speak in an announcement in parliament
after 2:30PM

To Clarify this Mess.


Then on Weds
no one can take the Piss of him
in PMQ's

[bots]

it's really not a mess anymore. It's time for the activists to obey the law

[arista]

Originally Posted by bots

it's really not a mess anymore. It's time for the activists to obey the law

The real trouble is
they will not.


This is why it's sensible for PM Starmer
to go into Parliament after 2:30PM, Tuesday
and give his new view on the judgment.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by arista

The real trouble is
they will not.


This is why it's sensible for PM Starmer
to go into Parliament after 2:30PM, Tuesday
and give his new view on the judgment.

Bit late isn't it, we all know his views quiet clearly now

[arista]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Bit late isn't it, we all know his views quiet clearly now

Yes, Months back he was confused on LBC Live.


He must speak up tomorrow
or PMQ's on Weds
will take the piss him

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I’m talking about the people giving death threats. Radicals exist in every group?

Is it a common opinion of yours that legitimate reasonable people of a certain demographic should pay the price for the actions of a bad minority within the same community?

If so, it’s a very toxic mentality. If not, why do you do it with this group?

This is the infuriating part, there are scary people in every group, there are dangerous cis women in women only spaces too and dangerous cis men will always find a way to prey on others. This isn't protecting anyone, it's just excluding.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by bots

it's really not a mess anymore. It's time for the activists to obey the law

Prepare for malicious compliance.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

This is the infuriating part, there are scary people in every group, there are dangerous cis women in women only spaces too and dangerous cis men will always find a way to prey on others. This isn't protecting anyone, it's just excluding.

so you would be perfectly happy to accommodate a transwoman with a penis in a domestic refuge?

[BBXX]

Look, I think this all really boils down to whether you believe someone's gender is based off their biological reproductive organs and chromosomes, or if you believe gender is separate from sex and someone can be a woman regardless of what they have between their legs.

If the former, then you'll never ever see a trans person as separate from their biological make-up and so the idea of a trans person being in the same safe spaces as biological cis women is an issue, of course, because ultimately to you they are and always will be a man.

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

so you would be perfectly happy to accommodate a transwoman with a penis in a domestic refuge?

If she needed help?? Yeah!

[user104658]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Look, I think this all really boils down to whether you believe someone's gender is based off their biological reproductive organs and chromosomes, or if you believe gender is separate from sex and someone can be a woman regardless of what they have between their legs.

I disagree and 15+ years ago before people (intentionally) muddied the water good science and sociology also disagreed - it doesn't boil down to that at all, it boils down to the fact that sex (biological) and gender (social construct) are entirely different concepts and while you can argue that there's nothing inherent about sex and gender that mean they have to "match", it's irrelevant to whether or not sex-separated spaces should have anything at all to do with gender, any more than they should relate to any other social construct.

In fact (this part is just opinion, I will admit) rigid social rules are the whole problem; "I seem to behave and exist in a more traditionally feminine way than masculine, I identify with and feel more like the females I encounter than the males, therefore I must also BE female". It's easy to see where the conclusion comes from but it's bullsh** - it's just that we live in a rigid-thinking society when it comes to male/female social expression and most people are inclined to adhere to social norms. We "expect" to see men "looking like men" and women "looking like women" and if someone doesn't stay in their lane then they "are the other" (trans) instead of just... still being the sex they are, yet still presenting however they like.

Gender as a concept and it's origins is a deep and fascinating subject, my honest and frank opinion is that a lot of transgender rhetoric massively oversimplifies it conceptually and also far too often conflates gender and sex, and that's been an increasing issue over the last decade/decade and a half.