[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Great post Maru

Yep, well said @Maru

[arista]

[Vicky.]

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...court-judgment

For anyone interested

[user104658]

The "trans men (biological women) shouldn't use male toilets" conundrum is a major, major stumbling block I cannot even fathom what the solution there is going to be. Literally any bloke could walk into a women's changing room claiming that they are a trans man and I can't see how anyone could prove one way or the other without peeking their genitals.

Being blunt; more often than not, you can tell when a trans woman is trans. People are polite and claim otherwise but most are not entirely "passing".

But testosterone therapies have a HUGE effect on biological women and trans men can easily look 100% male, if often on the short side, but we can't go assuming that all short kings are actually biologically female.

I dunno how that's going to be solved.

Honestly I think the simplest safeguarding solution would be to say that biological men can't use women's spaces, but biological women can use men's spaces if they choose to. Trans men should, if they choose to, still use men's toilets.

That would be a nightmare (or basically impossible) to write into any coherent law though.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

The "trans men (biological women) shouldn't use male toilets" conundrum is a major, major stumbling block I cannot even fathom what the solution there is going to be. Literally any bloke could walk into a women's changing room claiming that they are a trans man and I can't see how anyone could prove one way or the other without peeking their genitals.

Being blunt; more often than not, you can tell when a trans woman is trans. People are polite and claim otherwise but most are not entirely "passing".

But testosterone therapies have a HUGE effect on biological women and trans men can easily look 100% male, if often on the short side, but we can't go assuming that all short kings are actually biologically female.

I dunno how that's going to be solved.

Honestly I think the simplest safeguarding solution would be to say that biological men can't use women's spaces, but biological women can use men's spaces if they choose to. Trans men should, if they choose to, still use men's toilets.

That would be a nightmare (or basically impossible) to write into any coherent law though.

There is no conundrum, most restaurants, bars etc have a 3rd space or if they can provide a lockable cubicle then there is no issue, honestly this is not the big deal it is made out to be, heard a transwoman on the radio this moring saying people would gather outside ladies toilets to assault transwomen, literal scaremongering AND might I add this lady said she was going to continue to use the ladies facilities, which I dont mind as long as there is common sense involved, I do not want to see an obvious man in a dress in female spaces, this will also make it much clearer for sporting bodies and for quotas on employing women

[Crimson Dynamo]

Community notes

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

There is no conundrum, most restaurants, bars etc have a 3rd space or if they can provide a lockable cubicle then there is no issue, honestly this is not the big deal it is made out to be, heard a transwoman on the radio this moring saying people would gather outside ladies toilets to assault transwomen, literal scaremongering AND might I add this lady said she was going to continue to use the ladies facilities, which I dont mind as long as there is common sense involved, I do not want to see an obvious man in a dress in female spaces, this will also make it much clearer for sporting bodies and for quotas on employing women

No, I'm saying how do you stop a predatory male from pretending to be a trans man (biological female) in order to enter women's bathrooms, when it's been legislated that bathroom use is biological sex. I honestly feel like it's part of the equation that's been overlooked with the focus being on predatory men pretending to be trans women to get to women... we do now have an issue where predatory men can pretend to be trans men (people who look like men can claim they were born female) to access women's toilets.

I'm not talking about the people who will voluntarily use the correct spaces I'm talking about the ones who will exploit the ability not to.

[Crimson Dynamo]

New single-sex rules for NHS in weeks, Wes Streeting says



Wes Streeting warned health managers they must uphold the law after a major
Supreme Court ruling declared trans women are not women.

Current NHS guidelines have to be scrapped because they allow trans people to
be accommodated based on how they dress, their names and their pronouns.

“We'll be issuing guidance in the coming weeks before the summer,”

Mr Streeting also said female staff must have their own spaces to change into
scrubs - in a major victory for campaigning nurses.

Eight nurses from Darlington are taking the NHS to court in October in their
bid to stop a trans colleague using their changing room.

https://www.the-sun.com/news/1411298...for-nhs-weeks/

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

The "trans men (biological women) shouldn't use male toilets" conundrum is a major, major stumbling block I cannot even fathom what the solution there is going to be. Literally any bloke could walk into a women's changing room claiming that they are a trans man and I can't see how anyone could prove one way or the other without peeking their genitals.

Being blunt; more often than not, you can tell when a trans woman is trans. People are polite and claim otherwise but most are not entirely "passing".

But testosterone therapies have a HUGE effect on biological women and trans men can easily look 100% male, if often on the short side, but we can't go assuming that all short kings are actually biologically female.

I dunno how that's going to be solved.

Honestly I think the simplest safeguarding solution would be to say that biological men can't use women's spaces, but biological women can use men's spaces if they choose to. Trans men should, if they choose to, still use men's toilets.

That would be a nightmare (or basically impossible) to write into any coherent law though.

Apart from a third space, the solution seems to be to have spaces for
a) cis women
b) everyone else

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Apart from a third space, the solution seems to be to have spaces for
a) cis women
b) everyone else

I still think the only "clean" solution is self-contained toilets (where the occupant is then irrelevant) there no other solution that isn't going to be, in some cases, a major issue. In the absense of that I do think it "somehow" has to be the case that transitioned (long term hormone replacement) trans men who look clearly male should be using male spaces. I know that creates a disparity between trans men and trans women but it's the only realistic safeguarding option.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

The "trans men (biological women) shouldn't use male toilets" conundrum is a major, major stumbling block I cannot even fathom what the solution there is going to be. Literally any bloke could walk into a women's changing room claiming that they are a trans man and I can't see how anyone could prove one way or the other without peeking their genitals.

Being blunt; more often than not, you can tell when a trans woman is trans. People are polite and claim otherwise but most are not entirely "passing".

But testosterone therapies have a HUGE effect on biological women and trans men can easily look 100% male, if often on the short side, but we can't go assuming that all short kings are actually biologically female.

I dunno how that's going to be solved.

Honestly I think the simplest safeguarding solution would be to say that biological men can't use women's spaces, but biological women can use men's spaces if they choose to. Trans men should, if they choose to, still use men's toilets.

That would be a nightmare (or basically impossible) to write into any coherent law though.

Being blunt about it, it's really rare to hear about women being sexual predators.

Whilst I'm sure that there are cases of men being sexually violated by women, it is certainly not at a level where there's a cause for concern/debate about Trans Men using the men's bathroom.

That's why I don't think that there's going to be even any attempt to try and change or enforce Trans Men out of men's bathrooms, because biologically speaking they're still female, so they're less likely to commit sex offenses on paper.

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Being blunt about it, it's really rare to hear about women being sexual predators.

Whilst I'm sure that there are cases of men being sexually violated by women, it is certainly not at a level where there's a cause for concern/debate about Trans Men using the men's bathroom.

That's why I don't think that there's going to be even any attempt to try and change or enforce Trans Men out of men's bathrooms, because biologically speaking they're still female, so they're less likely to commit sex offenses on paper.

What about all the female teachers in the UK who've abused young boy pupils? I've seen many a headline about that over the course of my life. It does happen way more than you think but the victims are way less likely to report the woman who violated them.

[user104658]

I'd go as far as to say that the situation with public spaces is now actually worse.

Its not an issue with shelters/sports/anything where actual identity will be known, but open public spaces? Situation is currently broken. Oop.

[BBXX]

Yes detransitioning is a thing but isn’t very common. There are a few different stats around, ranging from a 0.46% detransition rate to an 8% detransition rate. Of those who do detransition most so do temporarily though - due to not financially able to continue with treatment or judgement/pressure from family or friends.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Yes detransitioning is a thing but isn’t very common. There are a few different stats around, ranging from a 0.46% detransition rate to an 8% detransition rate. Of those who do detransition most so do temporarily though - due to not financially able to continue with treatment or judgement/pressure from family or friends.

It is worth noting that a lot of these stats refer to detransitiining after beginning actual physical interventions (hormonal treatment and surgery), halting transition or "detransitioning" socially before medical processes have begun is much (much) more common especially amongst adolescent females (trans boys).

Therea little to no evidence that this is due to social pressure and is fairly consistent whether family and peers are supportive or not. Although it's often framed as "pressured" for political reasons.

Anecdotally; my daughter (now 16) half 6 or 7 trans boys in her year group at age 13, and over a dozen more identifying as non-binary. Three years later there are two trans boys and zero non-binary. Most "went back" to original gender at around 14/15.

I think this is ultimately probably a Not-uncommon phase, with it not being very surprising that adolescents might experience some philosophical pondering around concepts of sex and gender in early adolescence, that if adults would just let them figure out without meddling, does happen. The social interference by adults with their own political agendas (from both sides of the political track) is what really muddies the waters. Kids being collateral damage.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

Therea little to no evidence that this is due to social pressure and is fairly consistent whether family and peers are supportive or not. Although it's often framed as "pressured" for political reasons.

A survey of 27,000 trans people showed pressure from parents, difficulty of transition and harassment and discrimination at the top 3 reasons for detransition. Followed by Employment issues, Family Pressure, Relationship Pressure.

Only 5% detransitioned due to it not being the right gender identity for them after all. It's estimated that 0.40% of all trans people detransition because they realised they were incorrect/regretful about their transition.

Anecdotally; my daughter (now 16) half 6 or 7 trans boys in her year group at age 13, and over a dozen more identifying as non-binary. Three years later there are two trans boys and zero non-binary. Most "went back" to original gender at around 14/15.

I think this is ultimately probably a Not-uncommon phase, with it not being very surprising that adolescents might experience some philosophical pondering around concepts of sex and gender in early adolescence, that if adults would just let them figure out without meddling, does happen. The social interference by adults with their own political agendas (from both sides of the political track) is what really muddies the waters. Kids being collateral damage.

Yes. Of course, teenagers experiment and then settle and I agree they should just be left to figure it out at their own pace. A teenager identifying as trans at 13 and then not at 16 isn't detransitioning, I meant it the physical, medical sense.

[Vicky.]

Toilets are the thin end of the wedge anyway I would say. Refuges, prisons and such are much more important

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Toilets are the thin end of the wedge anyway I would say. Refuges, prisons and such are much more important

Yes absolutely

[Parmy]

I see the trans activists were teaming up with say no to racism, to counter protest a save our children event in Manchester over the weekend.


Hurling abuse at C/A survivors. Calling them racists and Nazis.


Absolutely thick as ****, horrible, selfish nasty nasty people.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Toilets are the thin end of the wedge anyway I would say. Refuges, prisons and such are much more important

Those are the areas where "appearance" is irrelevant though as there will be documentation. It can be a simple legislative decision and that's that. Toilet-usage ultimately is impossible to MEANINGFULLY enforce, and depends entirely on social obedience.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Interesting shift

Also we must move the voting age to 26

Spoiler:

[bots]

All it requires is social norms to be returned to what they were 20 years ago, before the world turned to ****

[user104658]

Originally Posted by bots

All it requires is social norms to be returned to what they were 20 years ago, before the world turned to ****

I agree-ISH things weren't perfect but in the places where it was good it was good enough, which sounds defeatist, but the quest for perfection can generate a backlash that ultimately makes things far worse for everyone - I think that's fairly clear to see. That's a difficult conversation to have with people though. "I know thing aren't perfect for you, I know you want them to be better, but pushing too hard and too fast will have the opposite effect".

It's a hard thing to accept, too.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by bots

All it requires is social norms to be returned to what they were 20 years ago, before the world turned to ****

So no blood donation from gay men? No 2007 Equality Act? No adoption for same sex couples in Scotland? No gay marriage? No strides towards legislations to ban conversion therapy?

Sorry, did we ask for too much with the above? Yikes!

[Swan]

Originally Posted by BBXX

So no blood donation from gay men? No 2007 Equality Act? No adoption for same sex couples in Scotland? No gay marriage? No strides towards legislations to ban conversion therapy?

Sorry, did we ask for too much with the above? Yikes!

I don't think anybody is saying that.