[Shaun]

I've just watched 'The Reader' and am also studying this topic [again] in college.

The debate I want to raise is the punishment of workers in the Nazi party, workers at concentration camps, secret services, State Police...were they in the wrong?

After all, they were doing their job. I doubt they could just hand in their P45 and go 'oh btw Goebbels, this is rly bad, ur sick lol bye x'.

I think the measures gone to repent for their guilt of the Holocaust and the War were, and are - particularly with the level of grey area and hesitancy to talk about it - too extreme and self-critical.

Of course, the war was terrible and the Holocaust even worse, and there were bound to have been very sick individuals who took pleasure, or even displayed nonchalance to their work, but I don't think you can tar them all with the same brush.

[Crimson Dynamo]

They were of course in the wrong but in most cases would have faced death if they kicked up about it. This was a time before media and people believed what they were told. This was also a time of war.

I would imagine that for many the survival instinct was the dominant one.

[lily.]

Are we talking about German soldiers... during wartime?

If so, then I don't think they need punished as they were following orders from a corrupt regime, and had little or no choice in the matter.

[setanta]

To really get behind the question you're posing you'd have to study the national psyche that prevailed during WWII and, more importantly, the way it's affected the Germany of today. Bruises like that don't heal very quickly. Sure I only have to look at home to see the repercussions that systematic abuse, albeit on a lessor scale, has had on my country, with the Catholic Churches carry on over decades with regard to our children.

[Shaun]

Soldiers would come into it, yes, L - but basically anyone in Nazi Germany. My belief is that unless they were the makers of the obscene policy, they weren't in the wrong...primarily. But as I said, it's difficult to distinguish who enjoyed the work and who didn't

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by setanta

To really get behind the question you're posing you'd have to study the national psyche that prevailed during WWII and, more importantly, the way it's affected the Germany of today. Bruises like that don't heal very quickly. Sure I only have to look at home to see the repercussions that systematic abuse, albeit on a lessor scale, has had on my country, with the Catholic Churches carry on over decades with regard to our children.

to be fair you are comparing a tiny minority against a complicit country, hardly fair.

[lily.]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Soldiers would come into it, yes, L - but basically anyone in Nazi Germany. My belief is that unless they were the makers of the obscene policy, they weren't in the wrong...primarily. But as I said, it's difficult to distinguish who enjoyed the work and who didn't

There would be no accurate way to distinguish one from the other. It would be speculation. So, there couldn't be one rule for the sadistic bastards and one for the ones just doing their job.

I'm of the same opinion as you though.. the lawmakers were the ones at fault.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

to be fair you are comparing a tiny minority against a complicit country, hardly fair.

I'm comparing only to highlight the damages that it must have inflicted on Germany when I see the legacy that the Church has had on our own country. I think it was a valid point to make when we're trying to understand the motivation behind the purging that continues in their state. Who could even begin to understand what they must go through every day with that on their plates?

[andyman]

Best to start with the end of World War I, there you will find that the wounds were still open and the country was broke..

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think it is important to understand that this was not a uniquely German thing, this could and to some extent has been many counties and still happens today.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by andyman

Best to start with the end of World War I, there you will find that the wounds were still open and the country was broke..

Exactly.

[arista]

Originally Posted by lili

Are we talking about German soldiers... during wartime?

If so, then I don't think they need punished as they were following orders from a corrupt regime, and had little or no choice in the matter.

Hang On
some were
others were abusing what they were meant to do.


Kraut Rapists

[BB_Eye]

The German people were guilty for supporting Hitler in the first place as a result of their institutional anti-semitism. People had centuries of bloody colonial history to look back on to see what a dangerous, inhuman lie racism is. It seems to me that people simply never learn.

Even the Germans themselves paid dearly for their cowardice. A rich cultural heritage (in literature, art, music, philosophy, the natural sciences) destroyed by a government obsessed with "reviving the German nation" of all people. Everyone lost in the end. It may sound weird, but there is an element of karma to it all.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

The German people were guilty for supporting Hitler in the first place as a result of their institutional anti-semitism. People had centuries of bloody colonial history to look back on to see what a dangerous, inhuman lie racism is. It seems to me that people simply never learn.

Even the Germans themselves paid dearly for their cowardice. A rich cultural heritage (in literature, art, music, philosophy, the natural sciences) destroyed by a government obsessed with "reviving the German nation" of all people. Everyone lost in the end. It may sound weird, but there is an element of karma to it all.

And another important thing to remember is that this hostility towards the Jews wasn't just a German phenomenon.

[andyman]

Originally Posted by setanta

And another important thing to remember is that this hostility towards the Jews wasn't just a German phenomenon.

Over 3,000 years..

[Tom]

You pick your P45 up from your employer when you leave, you don't hand it in

[Sticks]

Some required reading

The Third wave an experiment to demonstrate the appeal of fascism undertaken by history teacher Ron Jones with sophomore high school students attending his Contemporary History class as part of a study of Nazi Germany

The classic Stanford Prison Experiment

The Lucifer effect website by Phil Zimbado who ran the SPE.

It is all to easy to blame the Germans, we would most likely have done the same thing given the systemic forces that operated at that time.

[Biggersister]

I am sure there are schools of thought who believe our boys over in Afghanistan are guilty of working for a corrupt regime too! What exactly is it we are doing over there again?

[Sticks]

Another link about the third wave

Are you really sure you would not behave the same way.

[Captain.Remy]

The endless debate. I guess we'll never find a real answer to that.

Should the responsibility goes to one person (Hitler) ? The people who executed his orders ? The soldiers ? The people who collaborated ? Germany in full ?

This war was way more complicated than anything else we've had to know. Sure Hitler is the ultimate culprit but at the same time, was he that strong to make people believe what he thought was true so they could agree and do what he wanted them to do ? Why didn't they wake up ? How come such people could live by seeing all these innocents dying in front of them ? Fine, it was part of a dictatorship and they were forced to do it, but it still amazes me no one ever said anything. So I don't know really, I'm mixed about the soldiers situation.

As for the whole country of Germany being guilty, that's a lot of bollocks because a lot of German people got deported and got killed but I still can see why some people (especially French people) are quite "racist" about the Germans. There is still tensions and animosity between the two people hence Sarkozy and Merkel working together to show some peace but French people will probably never forget and will never stand the Germans. Sad, but true.

[Tom4784]

I think it's more the fault of the government then the workers and such, it was a dictatorship at the end of the day and I doubt many people could have left their posts even though they might have wanted to. Of course you'll have the people who agreed with it but I agree with Stick's point that if we applied that government to our country it'd be the same story. Fear is a powerful weapon.

[andyman]

Fear and wealth.. Many Germans were encouraged to report anybody that seemed to be against the government, even just a little word against it..
Many of the adults remember the bad times of mass unemployment in Germany and many now had jobs and hope under the Nazi government..