[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by fizzy

what a con. But could it be to cover costs, and still not be for profit?

It could be but then they are in serious trouble working as a 'non-profit org' and would be in serious trouble with a lot of tax people!

I have worked in non-profit orgs like this and helped put on concert/ministry type events.
This is the general rules how it works:

- The more people the more work is required. If there is 1,000 people arriving to it paying 30 a piece that is '1000 times the work, people, expenses'

Keep in mind these things often take months to plan and develop and organize.
In our case there may be five people who have put in 40 hours of work into the concert BEFORE it happens.
- We have already spent 3000 on everything from radio promotion, posters, writers and on and on. The building we are writing, planning, producing in costs money. the lights cost money. rent costs money.
This is BEFORE the concert event.

There are lots of things to be dumping money on even BEFORE anyone arrived. Venues, equipment, lighting, whatever,
and,
so there is the overall 'administration' costs but then the actual costs of actual event itself,
but,
wow you always get killed on all the incidentals including everything from last-minute hotel expenses, taxis, finding out there needs to be a 'first-aid' kit on premises (just crazy stupid things),
but,
keep in mind after all this is said and done there is no persons that 'take the profits'.
There is not such thing where we 'split the earnings'.
Of course not.
The money goes into the ministry where the elected board has voted on paying the bookkeeper x, paying the IT people x, paying the manager x,
then,
the Pastor is paid x-per month.
now what?
Well you see it will be another 3 months before we have another event. So staff is paid.
Some are paid monthly. From what?

ElProximo, you're a Dave fan (tho from the way you're defending him and explaining his gigs maybe I should i say disciple?) - there is nothing I can say that would change your mind.

No, I am an opponent of his cult group and think their Sloshfests not only do harm to those involved (including David),
but,
are shameful to Christianity and hurt the Church.

At the exact same time I am not a moron who thinks this means I should just accuse him of crimes for no reason.
In fact, falsely accusing him of crimes is COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE to opposing what is ACTUALLY WRONG.

In fact, this 'con-man' campaign is likely to backfire on you people AND actually 'help' David,
why?
how??
Because you made this 'money con' your cause. You picked the wrong fight.
After this David may very well show everyone that he and his family have SPENT THEIR OWN MONEY far more than he ever made from the Ministry,
and,
in fact he will show he probably gets paid something close to 'minimum wage' if you actually calculate the hours he works to his meager pay.
This will make him look great.
Make you look stupid.
It will seem that the detractors got 'pwned' and look silly and David and the Crowderites look like 'Winners'.

Meanwhile, nobody has spoken to the ACTUAL problem of their self-delusions, infatuation with being high and drunk, shaming the Church or falling into dangerous cult practices etc etc.

Your helping that happen by picking the wrong fight.

[stonedape]

Originally Posted by flamingGalah!

Last concert I went to the band were not claiming to be able to cure cancer or grow amputees new limbs... nor were they acting like mentally disturbed buffoons pretending they were drunk either... though I did see Oasis once...

win.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by ElProximo

No, I am an opponent of his cult group and think their Sloshfests not only do harm to those involved (including David),
but,
are shameful to Christianity and hurt the Church.

At the exact same time I am not a moron who thinks this means I should just accuse him of crimes for no reason.
In fact, falsely accusing him of crimes is COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE to opposing what is ACTUALLY WRONG.

In fact, this 'con-man' campaign is likely to backfire on you people AND actually 'help' David,
why?
how??
Because you made this 'money con' your cause. You picked the wrong fight.
After this David may very well show everyone that he and his family have SPENT THEIR OWN MONEY far more than he ever made from the Ministry,
and,
in fact he will show he probably gets paid something close to 'minimum wage' if you actually calculate the hours he works to his meager pay.
This will make him look great.
Make you look stupid.
It will seem that the detractors got 'pwned' and look silly and David and the Crowderites look like 'Winners'.

Meanwhile, nobody has spoken to the ACTUAL problem of their self-delusions, infatuation with being high and drunk, shaming the Church or falling into dangerous cult practices etc etc.

Your helping that happen by picking the wrong fight.

Wise words, but I think they will fall on deaf ears.

[mikopale]

Originally Posted by flamingGalah!

Indeed. Dave is equally offensive to both Christians & non believers alike...

Even though I don't agree with sloshfests, I don't think Dave is offending Christians, becauses he truly believes it. He is still a Christian, who believes the same as many born-again Christians, but it's just these sloshfests that he's misunderstood. A lot of cults are derived from established faiths, beliefs, religion's etc, and sloshfests are more of a cult, even though all the other beliefs are not if that makes sense. I don't think he's a con man. I reckon he truly believes that sloshfests are alright.

[flamingGalah!]

I fail to see how opening peoples eyes to how he is conning cancer victims etc...& showing him for the moron he is can HELP him... Surely if everyone says how wonderful he is & what a great job his "church" is doing he is going to gain followers...

But yeah, whatever...

[flamingGalah!]

Originally Posted by mikopale

Even though I don't agree with sloshfests, I don't think Dave is offending Christians, becauses he truly believes it. He is still a Christian, who believes the same as many born-again Christians, but it's just these sloshfests that he's misunderstood. A lot of cults are derived from established faiths, beliefs, religion's etc, and sloshfests are more of a cult, even though all the other beliefs are not if that makes sense. I don't think he's a con man. I reckon he truly believes that sloshfests are alright.

Well he offends ElProximo, who claims to be a Christian...

I find his comments that he can cure cancer & grow people new limbs more offensive than his actual antics on being "drunk"... that I just find sad.

[stonedape]

The real shame is trying to make money with a metaphoric Christian flag draped around you, promising miracles you knowingly or unknowingly cannot back up, when the most repeated theme in the new testament is give up your possessions and be like Jesus (poor as hell). Unfortunately, making money off God and promising miracles you can't back up is not as rare as ElProximo wants it to be, and is actually more of the standard. Besides the semantics of "drunk" and "high" and the awful aesthetic/musical choices, I see little difference. I would definitely not call Dave's group a cult, unless you're being so broad that "not normal" = cult. It's an alternative brand of your standard, run-of-the-mill Christianity with monthly tithes instead of weekly.

I have no problem with Dave's Sloshfests. At least they seem to be having fun, which is more than I can say for your average theist giving their hard earned money to others on behalf of invisible forces.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by stonedape

The real shame is trying to make money with a metaphoric Christian flag draped around you, promising miracles you knowingly or unknowingly cannot back up, when the most repeated theme in the new testament is give up your possessions and be like Jesus (poor as hell). Unfortunately, making money off God and promising miracles you can't back up is not as rare as ElProximo wants it to be, and is actually more of the standard. Besides the semantics of "drunk" and "high" and the awful aesthetic/musical choices, I see little difference. I would definitely not call Dave's group a cult, unless you're being so broad that "not normal" = cult. It's an alternative brand of your standard, run-of-the-mill Christianity with monthly tithes instead of weekly.

I take it the "God Squad" are quite low on your must donate to list then?

[stonedape]

Originally Posted by Shasown

I take it the "God Squad" are quite low on your must donate to list then?

Unimaginably low

[housemate]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Heres a daft question then, how come there is no one come out of the woodwork and criticised him, saying he charged them for a sloshfest and it was crap, or he charged me saying he would pray and cure my mums cancer and she has since died?

Or some outraged parent claiming their child has joined his cult and wont speak to them etc.?

Lets face it he has had enough accusations against him on this and other forums in the last 8 weeks, and still no one has come forward to condemn him girst hand.

Is it something anybody would readily admit to? Also, don't forget, Daves 'Movement' is in its infancy....
Look at Dave claim to be able to regrow limbs .. he mumbo-jumboed over Steves legs and yet how many people took it seriously enough to protest about the subsequent failure? ... Yo'd look like a fool because ofcorse its not going to happen! Great, no cures AND you get to feel stupid or (believers) think they weren't worthy of Gods help.. I'm willing to bet Dave doesn't offer refunds though ! Doesn't stop him continuing to make the same claims though ... because afterall, he's ' harmless ' really!!

[LeatherTrumpet]

If you go to any church in the UK you will see some people sing, raising their hands in the air and closing their eyes

if you go to a Pentecostal church you will see much more. if you go to a charismatic church you will hear people blurting rubbish pretending to speak in tongues.

It is all degrees of bollocks but then what do you see at a football match or an Elton John concert for example?

[fingers]

How many people on "minimum wage " can fly to America several times a year plus make trips to the Middle East and Indonesia and all the other junkets he boasts about?

[stoney]

Originally Posted by fingers

How many people on "minimum wage " can fly to America several times a year plus make trips to the Middle East and Indonesia and all the other junkets he boasts about?

its all part of his "work" tho fingers

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by flamingGalah!

Oh yes. He charges a similar amount to cure cancer too apparently...

Libellous crap!

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by fingers

How many people on "minimum wage " can fly to America several times a year plus make trips to the Middle East and Indonesia and all the other junkets he boasts about?

People in Ministries do. In fact, most of them do it for NO WAGE at all. The Ministry is the one paying for the tickets.

All over the world is almost uncountable numbers of Christian orgs, aid to Africa, relief missions, work projects building schools, hospitals, water pumps, emergency medicine, vaccines, flood cleanups.
The list is endless.
In almost every example most are NO WAGE earners.

This isn't complicated. People like me and the people in my Church are asked to donate to some project in war-torn Africa.
We agree.
We want to see those people helped.
I had $80 that I earned from my job. It was more but the government took about 30% of it.
So i was left with 80.
I gave that to the African non-profit ministry people.
So did 100 others in my Church.
The 'African Mission' collected 8,000
They PAY 2 people a minimum wage as actual full-time administrators and workers.
They have 2 people who are volunteers.
Of that 8000 we gave them... 4,000 went to their plane tickets and expenses.
4000 is not 'split between them' like its 'profit'. Instead it goes into the ministries account where 1000 will be paid to 'employees 1 and 2' for their monthly salary.
Next month again.

This is NOT COMPLICATED nor is it 'suspicious' nor is it confusing nor is this some kind of 'scheme'.
Its very basic.

Now then.. is it possible there is a Ministry where (for example) a board of Directors is hiring all their friends into 'party jobs' and then paying them to take what amounts to 'vacations'.
Paying them huge salaries too?
Yes.
This is CONSTANTLY true in nearly every field from Bankers, Insurance companies, Atheist Orgs, University 'Tenures',
and,
anywhere you can have people making what is (in our estimation) quite an easy life with easy money,
but,
now you are just talking irresponsibility, stupid companies, stupid non-profits, stupid social welfare and bad political parties using the system for gain.
Here is what (hopefully most times) corrects that:
- People won't vote that Party's politicians in next time.
- People won't invest in that Finance Company or demand the government withhold bailout money.
- People will realize the Ministry they are donating too is not using their money for the most good and STOP donating to them.

btw.. you do understand that David is not getting the plane ticket money right?
The airlines get that money.
Not David.

[fingers]

Who cares who pays for his tickets (apart from him that is) He invented his "Ministry" as a cash cow and is making full use of it. Good luck to him for getting the suckers to fund his "lifestyle""

[housemate]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Libellous crap!

Not so, all claims mentioned have been broadcast via BB/ You Tube, infact these claims re: re-growth of Limbs, curing Cancer etc .. ARE' Libellous crap', they slander the Church and Faith and God he professes to Love.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by housemate

Not so, all claims mentioned have been broadcast via BB/ You Tube, infact these claims re: re-growth of Limbs, curing Cancer etc .. ARE' Libellous crap', they slander the Church and Faith and God he professes to Love.

Where does he actually say that he charges for it? That is what the poster said! If he hasn't said that anywhere, which I don't believe he has - then it is libellous!

[housemate]

LOL .. don't tell me you missed something!

[fizzy]

Originally Posted by fingers

How many people on "minimum wage " can fly to America several times a year plus make trips to the Middle East and Indonesia and all the other junkets he boasts about?

that's true

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Where does he actually say that he charges for it? That is what the poster said! If he hasn't said that anywhere, which I don't believe he has - then it is libellous!

I have no idea why that keeps being repeated but Fingers seems to be the one who started this rumour.
To my knowledge never has any of the Crowderites including Dave EVER suggested anyone pays for healing.
I never heard David say any such thing on LF.

IF David really DID say any such thing then I totally agree that is as wrong as it gets,
but,
I don't know that this was ever claimed by David.

If someone heard this on LF or in a HL program please feel free to share the link or explain what they heard?

No, I think they believe people can be healed of cancer and whatnot.. but no money transactions have anything to do with it.

Unless someone knows different??

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by housemate

LOL .. don't tell me you missed something!

Don't tell me you watch 24/7 - personally I have better things to do!

[fingers]

Originally Posted by ElProximo

I have no idea why that keeps being repeated but Fingers seems to be the one who started this rumour.
To my knowledge never has any of the Crowderites including Dave EVER suggested anyone pays for healing.
I never heard David say any such thing on LF.

IF David really DID say any such thing then I totally agree that is as wrong as it gets,
but,
I don't know that this was ever claimed by David.

If someone heard this on LF or in a HL program please feel free to share the link or explain what they heard?

No, I think they believe people can be healed of cancer and whatnot.. but no money transactions have anything to do with it.

Unless someone knows different??

Fingers DID NOT say any such thing, and if you can find a post where I did I will be very surprised.

I Post HIS videos from his YouTube Postings!
An apology will be appreciated.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by fingers

Fingers DID NOT say any such thing, and if you can find a post where I did I will be very surprised.

I Post HIS videos from his YouTube Postings!
An apology will be appreciated.

Maybe Housemate would like to enlighten us then as to where this information comes from - as he seems to be so in the know!

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by fingers

How many people on "minimum wage " can fly to America several times a year plus make trips to the Middle East and Indonesia and all the other junkets he boasts about?

That is funded by the church - not out of his pocket! Like anything - the expenses for events are met by the organisation - in this case the church!