[Judas]

I would list the main things they did but I really can't be bothered

[Shaun]

thatcher represent~

[Judas]

I find it hard to say, I guess with politics it's easier to say who was the WORST government iif the last few decases, so I thought it would be interesting to see who people think is the best.

The first few years of Blairism were good, then ****. Major was OK, and imo underated. Brown just had no appeal to me as a leader and has alot of blaim of the recession placed upon him. I've not studied much on the ideologies of Wilson or Callaghan so I really only know about what happened under them - which was, you guessed it, s--t. Thatcher caused LOTS of problems but also, imo, resolved many of those before her. She also had a lot of luck to help her with the North Sea Oil etc.

So I guess I would say Blair, although I don't really like the way he treated politics with all the media obssessed rubbish. And I hate all the Blair fans that think he did nothing wrong.

.... I can't believe I just said Blair. :O. That was interesting.

[Angus]

Lol, at the people who've voted for war criminal Blair and his band of corrupt thieving hypocrites.

[Judas]

Originally Posted by angus58

Lol, at the people who've voted for war criminal Blair and his band of corrupt thieving hypocrites.

I honestly don't think he is a war criminal, I think he had well moralled intentions thinking he was some kind of saviour following the events of the previous 4 years, although obviously these intentions were slightly warped.

[Ninastar]

thatcher

[joeysteele]

I haven't known many govts but I would have to for my age vote for the early part of Labour from 1997 to 2002 even though reading back thorugh the history of politics I do feel never has 2 such massive overall majorities been wasted more by a govt.

Having said that but when just very young in 1996 we had a family member realy ill,I was upset to see that person left in a corridor in hospital where they actually died too.
As I got older I learned that due to the massive running down of the NHS by the Conservatives, there were so few Nurses to man the wards so wards were closed.
Also my Grandmother needed a cataract operation and it had taken 18months from being referred to actually getting it done.

Now its done in under 3 months and the NHS was until this year much more efficient and stronger.

For that reason I will choose the early years and reforms for the NHS from the Labour govt post 1997.I have 5 of my family who are Nurses in the NHS now and they are very demoralised at present as to this govts reform plan,fearing soon the NHS will be gone as we know it.
I have a cousin who is training to be a Nurse, she has been told she can finish her training but there is now no guarantee of a permanent post after she has.

I think that is pathetic.

[Tom.]

Originally Posted by angus58

Lol, at the people who've voted for war criminal Blair and his band of corrupt thieving hypocrites.

just as easy to say lol @ people who voted for Thatcher with her screwing over any British industry

But all politics basically is is Labour giving us everything and then Tories coming in a few years down the line to sort the debt out. But Conservatives don't care about anyone other than those with a bit of money. And by bit, I mean hundreds of thousands.

[MTVN]

I dont know much about most of them but although Thatcher made a lot of mistakes I do think she was absolutely necessary for the country considering the state it was in and how it was being run

[karezza]

No-one has caused more harm to this country than Tony Blair & Gordon Brown.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Tom.

just as easy to say lol @ people who voted for Thatcher with her screwing over any British industry

But all politics basically is is Labour giving us everything and then Tories coming in a few years down the line to sort the debt out. But Conservatives don't care about anyone other than those with a bit of money. And by bit, I mean hundreds of thousands.

God help us all if the up and coming electorate have such naive and simplistic views of politics. If you can't see how badly Labour have damaged this country during their 13 years of mismanagement, incompetence, sheer greed and grasping hypocrisy, then I truly fear for the future of this country.

Thatcher encouraged self sufficiency, Labour encouraged fecklessness and dependendence. Thatcher encouraged and facilitated home ownership for all, Labour kept the working classes in social housing, Thatcher gave bright children from poor backgrounds the opportunity of a great education, Labour immediately closed that door the moment they got into power, but made sure their own brats took full advantage of private education. Thatcher didn't feed a generation of kids the lie that they were all destined for academic greatness, Labour has propogated that myth to the extent we have dumbed down qualifications so that thick idiots can now get into university to take micky mouse degrees.

Thatcher chose her battles well, she subdued the monstrous unions of the 70s and 80s who persistently held the country to ransom, whilst Labour have reverted to their true colours by electing a union puppet as their Leader. Thatcher sent our troops to protect the BRITISH in the Falkland Islands with the full backing of the country, Labour spawned the war criminal that is Blair who committed us to wars by lying and deceiving the nation, and laying us all open to continued terrorist attacks. Thatcher was in favour of controlled immigration, whilst Labour cynically threw open our borders to "import" new voters. Under Thatcher we were proud to be British, and patriotism was not yet a dirty word. Under Labour we have been browbeaten by political correctness and burdened by the monstrous and totally unjust Human Rights legislation.

We now have a generation of kids who think the world owes them a living, and feel entitled to all sorts of "rights" with no corresponding responsibilities at all. The legacy of Labour misrule is social control on an unprecedented scale, loss of freedoms, increased bureacracy, and a nanny state that allows feckless, workshy scroungers to leech off society for life - literally from the cradle to the grave. Worst of all, Labour have robbed us of our pride in our nation, instead making any display of patriotism or pride in our culture and heritage, something to be ashamed of.

[BB_Eye]

Harold Wilson of course. Don't get me wrong the unions got out of control during his second stint in office and he royally screwed up supporting the Vietnam War, but his government did more good than bad and made Britain one of the most equal societies in the world. We could use a Prime Minister like him right now.

[joeysteele]

I have a feeling this Govt wil go down as the worst ever,it is already losing its way and causing massive damage to the recovery and is on a dangerous path., I still stand by my view that Labour saving the NHS from being on its knees by 1997( all ready for privatisation to be sold off cheaply just like the Energy and Water which were done also in the 18 years of Tory govt) was the best govt in its early years.

All govts make mistakes, but only the Tories have ever had very large unemployment,it's their tool in recessions,I was reading a book last week, where the Tories created the first million unemployed in 1971, when they left office in 1974 they had 2 million unemployed and another 2.5 million on a 3 day week.
In the 80s they brought unemployment to again something like 2.5 million and it was still around the 2 million mark when they went out in 1997.
That's a lot of jobs gone, lives and livelihoods hammered and homes repossessed too.

We need a whole new party in this Country, not these 2 old failures of the past 65 years of which the Tories have had over 35 years in power,with 2 long stretches,13 years in the 50s and 60s unbroken and then 18 years unbroken between 1979 and 1997, and still they failed to get it right.
Likewise Labour has had just under 30 years in power,only one lengthy spell to 2010 from 1997 but again failure there too.
Neither is better than the other,one uses financial cost to beat recessions the other uses human cost by loss of jobs and livelihoods to beat recession.
They both get to the same result eventually but what a choice the voters have to make.


However, the NHS is in my view a fantastic creation for all its faults but its not safe with this lot we have now and it wasn't safe in the 18 years from 1979 to 1997 either,which is why I applaud Labours efforts and investment to save it and rebuild it after winning the election in 1997 and so I chose the early part of that govt as the one I thought the best.

I do appreciate other members opinions on here though as I have not lived through many govts yet so in fact I am limited as to practical experience and knowledge of govts.

[Tom.]

Originally Posted by angus58

God help us all if the up and coming electorate have such naive and simplistic views of politics. If you can't see how badly Labour have damaged this country during their 13 years of mismanagement, incompetence, sheer greed and grasping hypocrisy, then I truly fear for the future of this country.

I don't have simplistic views if I expand on them, but ultimately that is what it boils down to.

Thatcher encouraged self sufficiency, Labour encouraged fecklessness and dependendence. Thatcher encouraged and facilitated home ownership for all, Labour kept the working classes in social housing, Thatcher gave bright children from poor backgrounds the opportunity of a great education, Labour immediately closed that door the moment they got into power, but made sure their own brats took full advantage of private education. Thatcher didn't feed a generation of kids the lie that they were all destined for academic greatness, Labour has propogated that myth to the extent we have dumbed down qualifications so that thick idiots can now get into university to take micky mouse degrees.

Self sufficiency is good in theory, but in reality its never going to work. Someone has to do the bottom line jobs. The country won't function if we don't have cleaners, shop assistants etc. They are the front line for almost every organisation in the country and on the whole are on minimum wage (which labour introduced). If you have peope on such a low wage, with the cost of living always going up, there is no way the poorest can sustain themselves.

Qualifications also aren't dumbed down imo; teaching methods have simply improved. If you take a group of holier-than-thou adults and give them the same exams that people sit today, I bet there wouldn't be much improvement. I also don't see the problem with telling anyone they can do anything. Should we not have aspirations and should stick with what our parents have done?

Thatcher chose her battles well, she subdued the monstrous unions of the 70s and 80s who persistently held the country to ransom, whilst Labour have reverted to their true colours by electing a union puppet as their Leader. Thatcher sent our troops to protect the BRITISH in the Falkland Islands with the full backing of the country, Labour spawned the war criminal that is Blair who committed us to wars by lying and deceiving the nation, and laying us all open to continued terrorist attacks. Thatcher was in favour of controlled immigration, whilst Labour cynically threw open our borders to "import" new voters. Under Thatcher we were proud to be British, and patriotism was not yet a dirty word. Under Labour we have been browbeaten by political correctness and burdened by the monstrous and totally unjust Human Rights legislation.

Can't disagree with any of that, but you seem to be looking beyond any good Labour have done. As already said they introduced the minimum wage. They drastically improved the NHS, reducing waiting times by months, in some cases years, and definitely saving lives in the process. They've opened a lot of doors for education; people who could never previously afford to go to University now can (for the time being at least). The Conservatives have just come in and introduced a load of ridiculous cuts which basically undoes everything Labour have done, taking us back to 1997. The cuts needed doing but there were ways and means of doing it without doing it on the scale they have. They're also set to reform the NHS, which doesn't need reforming, and of course putting up student fees.

I don't know whether it actually happened but there was talk of highest earners having a cap on tax. Its no coincidence that David Cameron knows 18 people out of 100 or so that it will benefit. Conservatives are just in it for themselves, screwing over whoever in the process.

We now have a generation of kids who think the world owes them a living, and feel entitled to all sorts of "rights" with no corresponding responsibilities at all. The legacy of Labour misrule is social control on an unprecedented scale, loss of freedoms, increased bureacracy, and a nanny state that allows feckless, workshy scroungers to leech off society for life - literally from the cradle to the grave. Worst of all, Labour have robbed us of our pride in our nation, instead making any display of patriotism or pride in our culture and heritage, something to be ashamed of.

I can't disagree with any of that either, but all I'm saying is both parties have contributed greatly but both have caused massive problems too. I'm not a particular supporter of any political party, but I think its important that people take off their rose tinted glasses when discussing their favoured party. I also think people should look for the positives that opposition parties have done, they aren't as bad as everyone thinks!

[Novo]

Blair Loyal

[karezza]

Gordon Brown lost £2bn selling off British gold. He was a disaster.

[Angus]

It's amazing how self interest dictates who one considers the better government. Never mind the illegal war that the war criminal, Blair, deceived us into, or the fact that the majority of hypocritical labour mps had their greedy snouts firmly in the trough - so long as welfare benefits and other handouts (oops grants!) were freely being handed out to all and sundry (deserving or not), all was well with the world

[BB_Eye]

People can support the previous government's welfare system as much as they like (as far as I see it, its effect on the deficit gets hugely exaggerated). What I can't understand is how people can think Blair's government was a success fatally cut short by Gordon Brown. Blair was the one who inflicted the disastrously costly and pointless PFI bonanza on public services, driving up public sector spending by billions just to pay off the consequent interest rates. The Tories were the ones who introduced them into the public sector in the first place (owing to their irrational belief that the market can do no wrong), but it was under Blair that PFI deals reached their zenith. I know Brown was chancellor during this time, but Blair did nothing to stop him and I for one can't see him behaving any differently in bailing out the banks in response to the credit crisis.

Blair and Brown were both an embarrassment to much of what Labour stood for, even after the death of Clause 04. They introduced tuition fees, left corporation tax untouched after Thatcher and Major's government and did nothing -absolutely FA- to rectify the unprecedented damage privatisation did to our railways and most of the spending made on the public sector did less to create jobs for doctors, nurses and police officers than line the pockets of the growing body of feckless bureaucrats. Of course the war in Iraq (for oil no less), attempts to encroach on people's civil liberties in the name of "the War on Terror" and Blair's co-operation with Bush administration in sending terror suspects to Guantanamo without trial is no mere footnote in the New Labour farce either. Blair was a right-wing prime minister and not even centre-right.

Indeed Labour never snatched Number 10 away from John Major. They had it handed over to them on a plate as soon as they bowed the Murdoch press's ideological demands.

[letmein]

Originally Posted by Shaun

thatcher represent~

You weren't even born!

Believe me, if you lived under Thatcher you'd be calling for the guillotines to come rolling out. A horrible time in the UK's history.

[letmein]

Originally Posted by angus58

God help us all if the up and coming electorate have such naive and simplistic views of politics. If you can't see how badly Labour have damaged this country during their 13 years of mismanagement, incompetence, sheer greed and grasping hypocrisy, then I truly fear for the future of this country.

Thatcher encouraged self sufficiency, Labour encouraged fecklessness and dependendence. Thatcher encouraged and facilitated home ownership for all, Labour kept the working classes in social housing, Thatcher gave bright children from poor backgrounds the opportunity of a great education, Labour immediately closed that door the moment they got into power, but made sure their own brats took full advantage of private education. Thatcher didn't feed a generation of kids the lie that they were all destined for academic greatness, Labour has propogated that myth to the extent we have dumbed down qualifications so that thick idiots can now get into university to take micky mouse degrees.

Thatcher chose her battles well, she subdued the monstrous unions of the 70s and 80s who persistently held the country to ransom, whilst Labour have reverted to their true colours by electing a union puppet as their Leader. Thatcher sent our troops to protect the BRITISH in the Falkland Islands with the full backing of the country, Labour spawned the war criminal that is Blair who committed us to wars by lying and deceiving the nation, and laying us all open to continued terrorist attacks. Thatcher was in favour of controlled immigration, whilst Labour cynically threw open our borders to "import" new voters. Under Thatcher we were proud to be British, and patriotism was not yet a dirty word. Under Labour we have been browbeaten by political correctness and burdened by the monstrous and totally unjust Human Rights legislation.

We now have a generation of kids who think the world owes them a living, and feel entitled to all sorts of "rights" with no corresponding responsibilities at all. The legacy of Labour misrule is social control on an unprecedented scale, loss of freedoms, increased bureacracy, and a nanny state that allows feckless, workshy scroungers to leech off society for life - literally from the cradle to the grave. Worst of all, Labour have robbed us of our pride in our nation, instead making any display of patriotism or pride in our culture and heritage, something to be ashamed of.

Thatcher encouraged classicism and elitism. Don't lie to yourself. She was as evil, and incompetent as they come.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by letmein

You weren't even born!

Believe me, if you lived under Thatcher you'd be calling for the guillotines to come rolling out. A horrible time in the UK's history.

Gosh, if only there were this thing called history. Take your condescension elsewhere.

edit: besides i was born 8 months before she left.

[Liberty4eva]

If there was an option "hate 'em all" I wonder how well that would be doing?

[Shaun]

I'm intrigued as to who voted for the current one.

[Angus]

I have never ever voted Labour and never ever will, simply because I don't share their definition of "fairness and equality" which involves lowering levels of motivation and aspiration instead of raising them. You see it now in schools, where teaching is pitched towards the lowest common denominator, and bright kids are left bored and frustrated; you see it in the huge rise of women who happily have several children by different fathers, safe in the knowledge that their offspring will be supported by the taxpayer; you see it now in the gradual erosion of family life, as the State interferes in all aspects of home life. That is why we will always have an underclass happy to live from the cradle to the grave being supported by the State. But the Orwellian State promoted under Labour has a hidden agenda in that the more you are supported by it, the more intrusive and controlling it becomes. Anyone who denies that our civil liberties and personal freedoms have been seriously encroached upon over the course of every Labour government must be living in cloud cuckoo land. The Blair/Brown Government is the most corrupt, hypocritical, deceitful, incompetent government I have ever lived under, and I bet I've lived under several more than most on here.

Thatcher encouraged self sufficiency and self responsibility, but that does not mean help was not available for those that TRULY needed it. Instead we now have a welfare system where people claim benefits because they have a sense of entitlement to have a bit of whatever's being offered. Benefits are there as a last resort, safety net, and were never intended to be a lifestyle choice for the workshy and feckless. Labour have deliberately fostered a dependency culture which strips the very people they are supposed to represent of their self respect, self determination, motivation and aspirations. The reasons why are blindingly obvious to me. Dependence = compliance and obedience. I'm not ready to roll over yet.