[Pyramid*]

Now....do not get me wrong here, there are many forms of completly disabiling mental illnesses and extremely genuine cases, however I cannot help but feel we are now a nation who are happy to go along with mental illness as being used for all manner of excuses: from behaviour, to not being arse to get out and work.

I really do feel that too many people (and worrying, a huge number of younger folk) who band illnesses such as 'depression / bi-polar / OCD' around - who neither actually do suffer but play up on it - as they really cannot be measured but can be very much imitiated and 'played up on' - especially when so many signs, symptoms are available online for them to display.


I cannot help feel that it's an ideal way for people today who simply want and crave attention, to make themselves feel 'special' or 'in need' - when in fact, there is buggar all wrong with them. It makes a mockery of those who really and truly do suffer.
what's your thoughts........

[Princess]

My family has suffered a lot because of mental health so I'd never tell anyone that there wasn't anything wrong with them, because I don't know at all, I can't see inside their head.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Princess

My family has suffered a lot because of mental health so I'd never tell anyone that there wasn't anything wrong with me, because I don't know at all, I can't see inside their head.

Now this bemuses me. You are saying that because mental illness has affected your family: you won't say that there isn't something wrong with you - because you cannot see inside THEIR head.

How does 'what is inside someone elses' head', affect you? it doesn't.

[Niamh.]

I agree with you, there's always going to be a percentage of people looking for an excuse to get a free ride, I don't know what can actually be done about it though without making the genuine people suffer?

[Princess]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

Now this bemuses me. You are saying that because mental illness has affected your family: you won't say that there isn't something wrong with you - because you cannot see inside THEIR head.

How does 'what is inside someone elses' head', affect you? it doesn't.

Oh typo alert. I meant them, not me. Stupid typos.

[joeysteele]

The problem with mental illness is that unlike other serious illnesses and disabilities it is not alwyas eveiden from just looking at or even talking to the eprson with the mental illness.
It is very easy to generalise and of course there will be some people who jump on the bandwagon for a time but mental illness whether iits a mild cognitive condition or something even more serious needs to be diagnosed by a Doctor and/or Psychiatrist, who will have the person undergo many tests and visits to them to find out the problem.

I am just grateful that I don't appear to have any mental illness and also I would show kindness and support to those who do.
Often because of peoples generalisations and suspicions, many people with mental illness feel they will be and often do get segregated from society.

No one knows the trauma they go through with this illness. I had a friend who smiled every time he saw you, joked and seemed fine, once alone he cried all the time and was massively depressed feeling full of hopelessness.
That was worry as to his academic future that caused the depression and he near had a massive breakdown.
Mental illness in the main cannot be seen just by looking at someone, that does not mean it is not there and they are suffering massively with it and yes, it would stop people functioning effectively,even to the point of being unable to work most of the time they have it.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I agree with you, there's always going to be a percentage of people looking for an excuse to get a free ride, I don't know what can actually be done about it though without making the genuine people suffer?

That's the bit that's the killer for me tbh. There are people who do genuine suffer and in no small amounts either: but there are so many people (and I have the misfortune to know some of them) who completely and utter play up - mental illnesses took so long to be taken seriously and to be addressed - but thanks to those who are happy to jump on the bandwagon, they bring the whole subject matter into question.....and very very unfairly on those who suffer terribly, and I mean real suffering.

Originally Posted by joeysteele

The problem with mental illness is that unlike other serious illnesses and disabilities it is not alwyas eveiden from just looking at or even talking to the eprson with the mental illness.
It is very easy to generalise and of course there will be some people who jump on the bandwagon for a time but mental illness whether iits a mild cognitive condition or something even more serious needs to be diagnosed by a Doctor and/or Psychiatrist, who will have the person undergo many tests and visits to them to find out the problem.

I am just grateful that I don't appear to have any mental illness and also I would show kindness and support to those who do.
Often because of peoples generalisations and suspicions, many people with mental illness feel they will be and often do get segregated from society.

No one knows the trauma they go through with this illness. I had a friend who smiled every time he saw you, joked and seemed fine, once alone he cried all the time and was massively depressed feeling full of hopelessness.
That was worry as to his academic future that caused the depression and he near had a massive breakdown.
Mental illness in the main cannot be seen just by looking at someone, that does not mean it is not there and they are suffering massively with it and yes, it would stop people functioning effectively,even to the point of being unable to work most of the time they have it.

Personally, I have had close family members in the past who suffered (both quietly and unbeknown as well as very obviously suffering) so I'm very much aware of how debilitating and devasting various types of some MI can be.

It's the fact that so many purport to suffer when it suits them: but still manage to function perfectly well when it comes to other aspects (socialising, vacations, meeting all sorts of appiontments and timetables when it suits).

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

That's the bit that's the killer for me tbh. There are people who do genuine suffer and in no small amounts either: but there are so many people (and I have the misfortune to know some of them) who completely and utter play up - mental illnesses took so long to be taken seriously and to be addressed - but thanks to those who are happy to jump on the bandwagon, they bring the whole subject matter into question.....and very very unfairly on those who suffer terribly, and I mean real suffering.




Personally, I have had close family members in the past who suffered (both quietly and unbeknown as well as very obviously suffering) so I'm very much aware of how debilitating and devasting various types of some MI can be.

It's the fact that so many purport to suffer when it suits them: but still manage to function perfectly well when it comes to other aspects (socialising, vacations, meeting all sorts of appiontments and timetables when it suits).

I wasn't getting at you there Pyramid,it was clear from your question that you have a good insight into mental Illness, I agree with you on appointments and timetables etc but in part socialising and going on breaks are considered therapeutic to those with mental illness.

It's a fascinating topic you have raised and of course as I said before there will be people who try to abuse it considerably,as you also pointed out.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I wasn't getting at you there Pyramid,it was clear from your question that you have a good insight into mental Illness, I agree with you on appointments and timetables etc but in part socialising and going on breaks are considered therapeutic to those with mental illness.

It's a fascinating topic you have raised and of course as I said before there will be people who try to abuse it considerably,as you also pointed out.

I didn't think for a second you were getting at me Joey, not at all.

Yes, there is a great need for 'relaxing' to aid recovery from certain MI, I couldn't agree more - absolutely - especially stress related issues that can have devastating impact on the brain - overload anything and it will suffer - so yes, in that context I totally agree.

It's those who play up to it that I more refer to - not those in genuine need. It's those people that rattle me - as they then put in into question the very people who are ill and truly are suffering ......

[BB_Eye]

I actually think the opposite. That there is too much of a stigma around mental illness and that it is still taboo to discuss in many situations. For one thing in my area, you have to go on a three month waiting list before getting access to mental health services.

There are attention-seekers around. I know a girl who claims to be agoraphobic, yet she behaves, loudly and arrogantly in public (nobody suffering agoraphobia would do this). But you'll get them everywhere and I shouldn't have to remind people that attention-seeking is very much a symptom of underlying mental health issues... usually a personality disorder. Ironically, it's unlikely such people will ever choose to confront their real problems.

At the bottom of all this, mental health problems are a tremendous cost to people organisations, the economy, etc and the symptoms are just as destructive at large as physical health problems, yet mental health services are underfunded and those claiming welfare on grounds of mental incapacity in the benefits system are treated with undue suspicion. Plus there are many lowlives out there (in all professions) out to exploit those unable to stick up for themselves, meaning teachers, GP's, social workers and welfare officers are less likely to be acting in their interests.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Princess

My family has suffered a lot because of mental health so I'd never tell anyone that there wasn't anything wrong with me, because I don't know at all, I can't see inside their head.

Doctors Push Pills a great Deal.

And a Good relaxed holday Works better.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

I actually think the opposite. That there is too much of a stigma around mental illness and that it is still taboo to discuss in many situations. For one thing in my area, you have to go on a three month waiting list before getting access to mental health services.

There are attention-seekers around. I know a girl who claims to be agoraphobic, yet she behaves, loudly and arrogantly in public (nobody suffering agoraphobia would do this). But you'll get them everywhere and I shouldn't have to remind people that attention-seeking is very much a symptom of underlying mental health issues... usually a personality disorder. Ironically, it's unlikely such people will ever choose to confront their real problems.

At the bottom of all this, mental health problems are a tremendous cost to people organisations, the economy, etc and the symptoms are just as destructive at large as physical health problems, yet mental health services are underfunded and those claiming welfare on grounds of mental incapacity in the benefits system are treated with undue suspicion. Plus there are many lowlives out there (in all professions) out to exploit those unable to stick up for themselves, meaning teachers, GP's, social workers and welfare officers are less likely to be acting in their interests.

See...I dont buy into this 'underlying personality disorder' ...... that I find is a perfect excuse for people who simply don't want to behave like normal, civilised, mannered human beings.

I am not saying that as a sweeping generalisation - what I am saying is that this is played up for nothing more than people wanting their own way, not conforming, and basically being demanding attention seeking idiots who use some form of 'personality disorder' as a supposedly bondfide reason - when in fact, they are just spoilt, demanding, attention seeking, workshy sods.j

It's these types that do the greatest damage to the acceptance of MHI imo.

Depression for example (used to be called a nervous breakdown) - has become more understood, more accepted, as has 'stress' - a good thing for those who suffer. But far as I can see it, the strain on the medical and psychological resources has much to do with those who act it up - at the great detriment to real victims.

You just have to have a look at forums with those on DLA, on IB etc, who are bricking themselves due to the new assessments coming into force.

If they had real issues: there would be nothing to fear.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

See...I dont buy into this 'underlying personality disorder' ...... that I find is a perfect excuse for people who simply don't want to behave like normal, civilised, mannered human beings.

I am not saying that as a sweeping generalisation - what I am saying is that this is played up for nothing more than people wanting their own way, not conforming, and basically being demanding attention seeking idiots who use some form of 'personality disorder' as a supposedly bondfide reason - when in fact, they are just spoilt, demanding, attention seeking, workshy sods.j

It's these types that do the greatest damage to the acceptance of MHI imo.

Depression for example (used to be called a nervous breakdown) - has become more understood, more accepted, as has 'stress' - a good thing for those who suffer. But far as I can see it, the strain on the medical and psychological resources has much to do with those who act it up - at the great detriment to real victims.

You just have to have a look at forums with those on DLA, on IB etc, who are bricking themselves due to the new assessments coming into force.

If they had real issues: there would be nothing to fear.

You are so right

[BB_Eye]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

See...I dont buy into this 'underlying personality disorder' ...... that I find is a perfect excuse for people who simply don't want to behave like normal, civilised, mannered human beings.

I am not saying that as a sweeping generalisation - what I am saying is that this is played up for nothing more than people wanting their own way, not conforming, and basically being demanding attention seeking idiots who use some form of 'personality disorder' as a supposedly bondfide reason - when in fact, they are just spoilt, demanding, attention seeking, workshy sods.j

I'm not defending people who do this or even saying that they deserve the sympathy they so crave. Attention-seekers are self-centred people who habitually exploit others and choose to do the things they do in their quest for attention and sympathy.

Personality disorders are a thorny subject, because those living such a disorder are morally unscrupulous and whose inclinations fit the profile of a criminal. However, I think the fact that there is so much ignorance on the subject is part of the reason such people routinely get away with manipulative behaviour and their victims get the blame. We all hear about the bully that bursts into tears once she is found out hoping to make their critics seem like coldhearted villains.

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

It's these types that do the greatest damage to the acceptance of MHI imo.

Depression for example (used to be called a nervous breakdown) - has become more understood, more accepted, as has 'stress' - a good thing for those who suffer. But far as I can see it, the strain on the medical and psychological resources has much to do with those who act it up - at the great detriment to real victims.

When anything is done in good faith, there is a risk of somebody taking advantage. The only truly foolproof method of fending off layabouts, attention *****s and shiftless jobsworths is pretending the people who really do need help don't exist.

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

You just have to have a look at forums with those on DLA, on IB etc, who are bricking themselves due to the new assessments coming into force.

If they had real issues: there would be nothing to fear.

Many (those on IB and ESA) are bricking themselves because they will be called to another degrading capability assessment (which are notorious for recording inaccurate information) and a needless application for Income Support only to win back their ESA/IB at the end of the appeal period. Others (those on DLA) because they will have mountains of paperwork to look forward to and an automatic cut to their benefit.

Whatever bogus claimants of disability benefit cost the taxpayer is dwarfed by the cost of these mandatory capability assessments (13 weeks after the initial claim) which treat genuine clients like benefit fraudsters. Plus those who fiddle the system get by by claiming provisional payments of their ESA up until their appeal. What do they do once the appeal is over and they've lost? Take it to appeal again and again and again. An immensely wasteful and unfair system.

As a matter of fact my workplace deals with people who have problems with the DWP on a daily basis. The tribunals worker is usually saddled with ESA and Incapacity spongers (as his clients are those who failed the appeal stage). Not one bogus claimant I observed has claimed IB or ESA on grounds of mental health problems. All were physical complaints such as arthritis or hypoglycaemia.

[bananarama]

Mankind as a whole is mentally ill.......Its just more obvious in some than others. Truth none of us are really sane.........

What sane person would want to watch a bunch of nobodies wondering about a fake house having fake arguments about fake subjects........

What sane person would believe religious fairy stories.......

What sane person would believe polititions enough to vote for the gits.......

Three examples as to how we are all mentally unbalanced to some degree or other.......Exept me of course......

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

Personality disorders are a thorny subject, because those living such a disorder are morally unscrupulous and whose inclinations fit the profile of a criminal. .

I could not disagree more with you. There are so many personality disorders, that for you to state that those living with such disorders are morally unscrupulous and whose inclinations fit the profile of a criminal - is absurd at best, and shows a distinct lack of knowledge as far as personality disorders is concerned.

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

When anything is done in good faith, there is a risk of somebody taking advantage. The only truly foolproof method of fending off layabouts, attention *****s and shiftless jobsworths is pretending the people who really do need help don't exist..

Pretending the people who really do need the help don't exist? I have not a clue what you mean by this or how that relates to fending off layabouts etc.

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

Many (those on IB and ESA) are bricking themselves because they will be called to another degrading capability assessment (which are notorious for recording inaccurate information) and a needless application for Income Support only to win back their ESA/IB at the end of the appeal period. Others (those on DLA) because they will have mountains of paperwork to look forward to and an automatic cut to their benefit.

Well I'm afraid that's life -no one said it was easy (it's not a bed of roses for the mentally sound either !!). We have systems in place that afford those who are genuinely ill, a good source of income via different types of benefit and allowances - to ensure that they have decent standards of liviing and not working for it (even if they have never paid into the system). I dare say that assessments may not be the most pleasant of experiences: but I'd say it was a small price to pay for the end result.

As I say, assessments are required - no use bleating about it - and the mountains of paperwork etc are partly designed to try to discourage fraudsters - it's not ideal but it is what it is. Anyone with a genuine illness should have no issues in passing their assessments - and those who are genuinely ill and who don't....when appealled, their cases are usually won if and when challenged. I suspect not as many true and genuine cases refused benefits/awards. It may not be ideal: but if it has to be the way it has to go, to avoid paying out to liars, cheats and fraudsters, it's unfortunate but there is a damn good reason for it. As I say: people with clear and serious issues may not look forward to the assessments: but ultimately, if they are genuine, they should not fear the result.
[/QUOTE]

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

I'm not defending people who do this or even saying that they deserve the sympathy they so crave. Attention-seekers are self-centred people who habitually exploit others and choose to do the things they do in their quest for attention and sympathy.

Personality disorders are a thorny subject, because those living such a disorder are morally unscrupulous and whose inclinations fit the profile of a criminal. However, I think the fact that there is so much ignorance on the subject is part of the reason such people routinely get away with manipulative behaviour and their victims get the blame. We all hear about the bully that bursts into tears once she is found out hoping to make their critics seem like coldhearted villains.


When anything is done in good faith, there is a risk of somebody taking advantage. The only truly foolproof method of fending off layabouts, attention *****s and shiftless jobsworths is pretending the people who really do need help don't exist.

Many (those on IB and ESA) are bricking themselves because they will be called to another degrading capability assessment (which are notorious for recording inaccurate information) and a needless application for Income Support only to win back their ESA/IB at the end of the appeal period. Others (those on DLA) because they will have mountains of paperwork to look forward to and an automatic cut to their benefit.

Whatever bogus claimants of disability benefit cost the taxpayer is dwarfed by the cost of these mandatory capability assessments (13 weeks after the initial claim) which treat genuine clients like benefit fraudsters. Plus those who fiddle the system get by by claiming provisional payments of their ESA up until their appeal. What do they do once the appeal is over and they've lost? Take it to appeal again and again and again. An immensely wasteful and unfair system.

As a matter of fact my workplace deals with people who have problems with the DWP on a daily basis. The tribunals worker is usually saddled with ESA and Incapacity spongers (as his clients are those who failed the appeal stage). Not one bogus claimant I observed has claimed IB or ESA on grounds of mental health problems. All were physical complaints such as arthritis or hypoglycaemia.

A very strong post this indeed, you have made me think especially to the costs to the taxpayer of these mandatory assessments. It is also often stated in the media the percentage of people who are declared fit to do some work by these assessments so lose their benefit, but of those who then appeal,I believe most get the decision overturned. However the media does not report that so what we get from the media and govt is...
a third of people have been taken off DLA or IB in recent checks,making out all those were scroungers, but we are never told that likely up to three quarters of those will get the decision overturned on appeal.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

A very strong post this indeed, you have made me think especially to the costs to the taxpayer of these mandatory assessments. It is also often stated in the media the percentage of people who are declared fit to do some work by these assessments so lose their benefit, but of those who then appeal,I believe most get the decision overturned. However the media does not report that so what we get from the media and govt is...
a third of people have been taken off DLA or IB in recent checks,making out all those were scroungers, but we are never told that likely up to three quarters of those will get the decision overturned on appeal.

Which is the point I raised in my last post.

As for the cost of the assessments: I am quite sure that this has been quantified and deemed to be a cost efficient method of filtering out the scroungers.

Remember: we aren't speaking only of DLA /IB etc: we are also taking of council tax rebates, housing rebates, carer costs, in community care costs, invalid car benefits, road tax benefits, free transport, free dental treatment etc: .....it's not only the initial 'money given out'..... it affects a massive range of other spin off benefits.

[InOne]

I get what you mean. I know some people who claim to have bipolar and wear it with a badge of honor. Sort of think of it as a trend. I've been labelled with an illness but I might see if I can try get a different opinion. The worst thing is looking on the net, because people can relate to most of the symptoms, so it's easy to exaggerate kind of thing. They will have have a list but never the scale.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by InOne

I get what you mean. I know some people who claim to have bipolar and wear it with a badge of honor. Sort of think of it as a trend. I've been labelled with an illness but I might see if I can try get a different opinion. The worst thing is looking on the net, because people can relate to most of the symptoms, so it's easy to exaggerate kind of thing. They will have have a list but never the scale.

Precisely. Even to the point that on t'internet: there are reems of posts about how to gain the 15 points - how to act up, what to do, what to say, how to respond, how to make out things are worse than they are.

Strangely enough: many of these same people are of sound enough mind to thoroughly research, for weeks on end, how to buck the system - yet aren't of sound mind to work, care for themselves, fend for themselves. But yet have no issue in socialising - online and offline, going to pubs, driving themselves all over the place etc.

I should say that my mother, spent about 20 years in and out of psych care with a range of very serious mental illnessess as well as physical - and to that end, it's not something I speak lighty of, or with any degee of flippacy. Add to that a father who took his own life: and believe me, I have seen from personal experience, how awful mental illness can be - and how destructive. it's one of the main reasons I am so passionate towards those who, as you say, wear their illness lke some badge of honour. You only have to visit some online forums to see how 'ill' some are...supposedly. Half the time it's a contest to see who has the worst and the most.

[letmein]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

See...I dont buy into this 'underlying personality disorder' ...... that I find is a perfect excuse for people who simply don't want to behave like normal, civilised, mannered human beings.

First of all, this was the excuse used for centuries, thus leading to mental illness being stigmatized. Please don't say such things, as you sound Medieval.

what I am saying is that this is played up for nothing more than people wanting their own way, not conforming, and basically being demanding attention seeking idiots who use some form of 'personality disorder' as a supposedly bondfide reason - when in fact, they are just spoilt, demanding, attention seeking, workshy sods.j

Sorry, but you sound like a real dick with this one.

Depression for example (used to be called a nervous breakdown) - has become more understood, more accepted, as has 'stress' - a good thing for those who suffer.

A "nervous breakdown" never meant "depression". It has to do with the first manic or psychotic episode.

There are more people getting diagnosed because the taboo is dissipating, which is a good thing.

Having a family that has had multiple suicides, I wouldn't classify their mental illness as "seeking attention". Now, I know that that's "not what you were saying since some do really have mental illness", but you ARE re-stigmatizing the disease. It's not a joke, and because you've had mental illness in your family, does not make you some expert, so don't even go there. I know that's coming.

You are playing moral authority here, and it's not pretty.

Precisely. Even to the point that on t'internet: there are reems of posts about how to gain the 15 points - how to act up, what to do, what to say, how to respond, how to make out things are worse than they are.

Post a link. I really need to see this.

Strangely enough: many of these same people are of sound enough mind to thoroughly research, for weeks on end, how to buck the system - yet aren't of sound mind to work, care for themselves, fend for themselves. But yet have no issue in socialising - online and offline, going to pubs, driving themselves all over the place etc.

It must be nice to make fantasy scenarios, and post them for all to see.

For the record, people who suffer from mental illness, don't have to be staring at the wall, in a vegetative state.

I know some people who claim to have bipolar and wear it with a badge of honor.

So, what?

The only reason why you even care about this subject is because you think that these people are getting *perks* in life that you don't get, and you're jealous. It's all: what about me? The world does not revolve around YOU. You're bashing them because you're pissed about how well they're supposedly making out by having this illness.

You have to get educated on the subject before making gross assessments based on fantasy. You live in ignorance, and that's really ugly.

[BB_Eye]

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

I could not disagree more with you. There are so many personality disorders, that for you to state that those living with such disorders are morally unscrupulous and whose inclinations fit the profile of a criminal - is absurd at best, and shows a distinct lack of knowledge as far as personality disorders is concerned.

I'm sorry, I understand why my comment came across as a sweeping statement. You are right that not everybody with a personality disorder is evil. The main difficulty those with Dependent Personality Disorder for instance is that they are the ones getting exploited by those closest to them. My point is that those whose personality disporder drives them to attention-seeking, manipulative and narcissistic behaviour (particularly those in Cluster B) lack a basic conscience and stubbornly shift the blame for all of their problems to others.

Munchausen Syndrome is not one of the classic DSM-IV personality disorders, but I believe it to be rampant among those who lie about or exaggerate their illness for attention, state money and support from social services. Some -those with Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy- will use their children as vehicles for this.

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

Pretending the people who really do need the help don't exist? I have not a clue what you mean by this or how that relates to fending off layabouts etc.

My point it is no good saying the only reason we can't make the benefits system 100% impervious to fraudsters because the system is 'too soft'. More to the point, what effective means do we have of putting a stop to it? We already have a capability assessment (carried out by private firms I hasten to add) and appeal system that costs the taxpayer more money than every benefit fraudster put together. If you think this and the genuine claimants who lose out is a worthy sacrifice then I honestly can't fathom why you feel ripped off as a taxpayer by the claimants themselves.

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

Well I'm afraid that's life

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought...ng_clich.C3.A9

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

-no one said it was easy (it's not a bed of roses for the mentally sound either !!). We have systems in place that afford those who are genuinely ill, a good source of income via different types of benefit and allowances - to ensure that they have decent standards of liviing and not working for it (even if they have never paid into the system). I dare say that assessments may not be the most pleasant of experiences: but I'd say it was a small price to pay for the end result.

Except it's not a small price to pay. Both the taxpayer and those claiming ESA and DLA because they need it are the losers in this game. The only people better off are the politicians who scapegoat those on benefits and companies like ATOS who are lining their pockets in a time of economic hardship.

Originally Posted by Pyramid*

As I say, assessments are required - no use bleating about it - and the mountains of paperwork etc are partly designed to try to discourage fraudsters - it's not ideal but it is what it is. Anyone with a genuine illness should have no issues in passing their assessments - and those who are genuinely ill and who don't....when appealled, their cases are usually won if and when challenged. I suspect not as many true and genuine cases refused benefits/awards. It may not be ideal: but if it has to be the way it has to go, to avoid paying out to liars, cheats and fraudsters, it's unfortunate but there is a damn good reason for it. As I say: people with clear and serious issues may not look forward to the assessments: but ultimately, if they are genuine, they should not fear the result.

Whether the assessments are needed is highly debatable. Personally I see nothing wrong with accepting the testimony of people's GP's or psychiatrists. You know... people who are actually qualified and know and understand their patient. Even if they were necessary, they need serious reform, but as long as ATOS meet the governments targets for taking people off sickness benefits, I don't see that happening any time soon.

I am sorry, but it is all well and good appealing to received wisdom and commonsense myopia by telling those less fortunate than yourself to 'get one with it, times are tough'. But what people need to bear in mind is that those unable to work on grounds of depression or mental illness are not at fault for their predicament. Why should they have to divulge the nitty gritty details of their everyday life to prove time and time again to a panel of total strangers that they need their money? This mentality only serves to perpetuate the stigma of mental illness and the gut instinct of the general public (and senior civil servants) to trivialise it as something self-inflicted and less serious than physical ailments.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by letmein

First of all, this was the excuse used for centuries, thus leading to mental illness being stigmatized. Please don't say such things, as you sound Medieval.



Sorry, but you sound like a real dick with this one.



A "nervous breakdown" never meant "depression". It has to do with the first manic or psychotic episode.

There are more people getting diagnosed because the taboo is dissipating, which is a good thing.

Having a family that has had multiple suicides, I wouldn't classify their mental illness as "seeking attention". Now, I know that that's "not what you were saying since some do really have mental illness", but you ARE re-stigmatizing the disease. It's not a joke, and because you've had mental illness in your family, does not make you some expert, so don't even go there. I know that's coming.

You are playing moral authority here, and it's not pretty.



Post a link. I really need to see this.



It must be nice to make fantasy scenarios, and post them for all to see.

For the record, people who suffer from mental illness, don't have to be staring at the wall, in a vegetative state.



So, what?

The only reason why you even care about this subject is because you think that these people are getting *perks* in life that you don't get, and you're jealous. It's all: what about me? The world does not revolve around YOU. You're bashing them because you're pissed about how well they're supposedly making out by having this illness.

You have to get educated on the subject before making gross assessments based on fantasy. You live in ignorance, and that's really ugly.

Few things to straighten out here - firstly - I'd appreciate you being more respectful in your reply - regardless of your opinions on my views.

Lets address your final points. *perks* etc. I am mightly grateful for what you flippantly and sarcastically refer to as *perks* - because for 5 years before my mother died - she benefitted greatly fromm these benefits - financially, physically and also the carers that attened to her several times a day. Without all of the assistance, financially and otherwise, neither she or I could have coped. So until you have some real life knowledge of me or my family's existence, I think it's best that you reserve judgement.

There recent was a thread on DS on the matter - with members who were offering tips / hints etc - however rather than making it easy and putting the link up for you, I'll let you find it all on your ownsome.

I happen to have a degree on the subject - obtained many years ago - before I ever dreamed that mental illness would affect my parents - so please - quit with the patronising assumption that I think I am an expert on the subject- however, be assured, I do have knowledge, both learned and in experience. I will speak from my own experiences, and what I see around me:- which is why I started the thread in the first instance.

I am more than very aware of how serious mental illnessess are: and how debilitating (not as in vegetative state - as you infer I mean).

I am debating the fact that there are many people out in society who are able to recreate some forms of mental illness - it's symptoms - for no other reason that to shirk off having to work, and benefitting from all the financial (and other) help that is then made available - it is people such as these who make the whole scenario of mental illness into a joke - not I.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by BB_Eye

I'm sorry, I understand why my comment came across as a sweeping statement. You are right that not everybody with a personality disorder is evil. The main difficulty those with Dependent Personality Disorder for instance is that they are the ones getting exploited by those closest to them. My point is that those whose personality disporder drives them to attention-seeking, manipulative and narcissistic behaviour (particularly those in Cluster B) lack a basic conscience and stubbornly shift the blame for all of their problems to others.

Munchausen Syndrome is not one of the classic DSM-IV personality disorders, but I believe it to be rampant among those who lie about or exaggerate their illness for attention, state money and support from social services. Some -those with Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy- will use their children as vehicles for this.

My point it is no good saying the only reason we can't make the benefits system 100% impervious to fraudsters because the system is 'too soft'. More to the point, what effective means do we have of putting a stop to it? We already have a capability assessment (carried out by private firms I hasten to add) and appeal system that costs the taxpayer more money than every benefit fraudster put together. If you think this and the genuine claimants who lose out is a worthy sacrifice then I honestly can't fathom why you feel ripped off as a taxpayer by the claimants themselves.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought...ng_clich.C3.A9

Except it's not a small price to pay. Both the taxpayer and those claiming ESA and DLA because they need it are the losers in this game. The only people better off are the politicians who scapegoat those on benefits and companies like ATOS who are lining their pockets in a time of economic hardship.

Whether the assessments are needed is highly debatable. Personally I see nothing wrong with accepting the testimony of people's GP's or psychiatrists. You know... people who are actually qualified and know and understand their patient. Even if they were necessary, they need serious reform, but as long as ATOS meet the governments targets for taking people off sickness benefits, I don't see that happening any time soon.

I am sorry, but it is all well and good appealing to received wisdom and commonsense myopia by telling those less fortunate than yourself to 'get one with it, times are tough'. But what people need to bear in mind is that those unable to work on grounds of depression or mental illness are not at fault for their predicament. Why should they have to divulge the nitty gritty details of their everyday life to prove time and time again to a panel of total strangers that they need their money? This mentality only serves to perpetuate the stigma of mental illness and the gut instinct of the general public (and senior civil servants) to trivialise it as something self-inflicted and less serious than physical ailments.

I dont believe I have said that geninue claimants should not receive every single penny- every single benefit that they are due. But there has to be a means of separating the wheat from the chaff. It may not be the case that the current assessments are ideal - and I don't believe I suggested that either. I happen to believe that GP/Psych assesments, reports etc should have a very high weighting in favour of the genuine claimants - but unfortunately - due to the abuse of the system, we have the situation we now have. Is it ideal? No, but it is better to ensure that monies and other needy benefits are not given out to those who simply do not need them - but who do claim falsely.

Neither did I suggest that those less fortunate than myself should 'just get on with it,times are hard' either. (and to be frank, as is known, that is a complete misconception as far as some mental illnesses are concerned - which is part of the problem for those who don't understand MHI. Some DO think that, and that is due to their lack of knowledge or understanding).

What I AM saying is that there are (too) many people, charlatans and free riders who are able to abuse the system, able to ham up the act and to no small cost either - and it is those people I direct my feelings on the matter to. Not those in genuine need.

I personally am not of the opinion that MHI 'brought this upon themselves, or put themselves into that predicament'...... but I find your thoughts on 'why should they have to divulge their details to strangers on a panel' so abhorrent? Are you then saying that we should simply accept what ALL claimants say is to be taken as honest and true? Clearly that's what has been happening - to the deteriment of those who are genuine. Hence the need for change.

Is the change ideal? No, I'd say it wasn't - but until someone comes up with a totally foolproof one that will not 'offend' some section of those claiming (bearing in mind here: the idea is not to refuse those in need, it is to filter out those who are cheating) - stricter controls have to be put in place to stop those abusing the system.

[arista]

"I am debating the fact that there are many people out in society who are able to recreate some forms of mental illness - it's symptoms - for no other reason that to shirk off having to work, and benefitting from all the financial (and other) help that is then made available - it is people such as these who make the whole scenario of mental illness into a joke - not I. "


Yes a Very Current and Valid
Point.