[Mrluvaluva]

An 11-year-old boy has been banned from the Scouts because he does not believe in God, it has emerged.

George Pratt had attended his Scout group for ten months before being asked to invest in the group with his friends.

But because he is an atheist he refused to take the Scout Promise, pledging his allegiance to God, and was told not to come to any more meetings.



The 11-year-old says the snub is 'very unfair' and he is missing out on adventures because of his views.

But he defiantly added: 'I'm not going to change my decision.'

His furious father, Nick, 45, accused the Scouts of being 'narrow-minded'.

'Christianity is meant to be about being tolerant, forgiving and understanding,' he said. 'You are allowed to join if you are a Christian or a Muslim but you can't not believe in God.'

George, of Radstock, Somerset, joined the 1st Midsomer Norton Scouts in January and was looking forward to going on a caving expedition before his ban was imposed by scoutmasters.

Simon Carter, a spokesman for the Christian movement, said: 'All young people are required to make the Scout Promise to become a Scout.

'Variations of the Scout Promise are available for different faiths (such as the use of "Allah" to replace "God" for Muslim Scouts), however all variations of the Promise must recognise the "Duty to God" element,' he added.


Metro

Is this an old fashioned view? Do The Scouts rules need updating, or do you agree with the decision? Shouldn't everyone be accepted despite their beliefs?

[GypsyGoth]

Isn't the scouts a religious organisation? So I think it's fair that they have rules like swearing loyalty to their god or whatever.

[Mystic Mock]

It's disgusting, the scout system definitely needs updating.

[Marcus.]

poor kid

[Jack_]

More religious indoctrination on the young and impressionable I see. Appalling.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

Isn't the scouts a religious organisation? So I think it's fair that they have rules like swearing loyalty to their god or whatever.

Yes. Perhaps the thinking is that the whole organisation should change their ethos so that people who don't agree with what the organisation stands for should be able to be included. Makes you wonder why he wanted to be a member anyway.

[Ramsay]

I hate religion

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Karl

I hate religion

this tbqvh

[jet]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

Isn't the scouts a religious organisation? So I think it's fair that they have rules like swearing loyalty to their god or whatever.

I agree. What 11 year old knows what they really believe in anyway? It seems to me it's the parents influence here.

[Nedusa]

I think oaths like these are outdated, why does everything have to be tied into religion. You can still make an oath that encompasses good moral values without having to make reference to a fictitious man living in the clouds...!!!

[starry]

Originally Posted by Livia

Makes you wonder why he wanted to be a member anyway.

His parents probably wanted him to be a member.

[Kizzy]

Why didn't he just say he did to join, if he doesn't believe what difference does it make it's just words?

[Cherie]

If he wants to join the scouts he has to follow their rules... looks like his parents just want to make a fuss, their boy is "special" and should be treated differently to everyone else. It doesnt matter what anyones view is of there being a God, this has been part of their oath for years, and just because some little tyke doesnt like it, why should they have to review it. Go and join another club, and stop this attention seeking.

[Omah]

The Scouts is a faith organisation which, apparently, caters for almost any faith :

http://www.scouts.org.uk/supportreso...ch/?cat=25,285

Religion in Scouting

The Scout Association is not directly and immediately concerned with the religious education of its Members.

That responsibility is with the religious families to which the Members belong, although some sponsored Groups will have a more immediate responsibility towards their Members' religious development.

However, the purpose of The Scout Association includes 'to promote the spiritual potential of young people'. This responsibility is a fundamental part of The Scout Association and needs to be achieved through the programme, method and structure of Scouting.

Members

The Scout Association is a diverse organisation that welcomes Members from all backgrounds, as long as they are able to make their promise. Part of the promise 'To do my duty to God' requires that the person taking the promise believes in a higher being - this can be called 'God', 'Allah' or 'Dharma'. Therefore when we have new adult leaders we ask that they believe in a higher being so that they can help the young people under their care to fulfil the promise they make as Scouts.

Young people

The purpose of Scouting is to ‘contribute to the development of young people in achieving their full physical, intellectual, social and spiritual potentials’.

We encourage young people to explore their beliefs and develop their spirituality. This process can happen in many ways, but especially through the Programme we deliver.

Our policy states that to be a youth member of The Scout Association, a young person is required to make the promise.

http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/...s/fs322016.pdf

The Promise

Scouting is available to all faiths and must therefore take account of the different religious obligations of its Members. Similarly, people of other nationalities resident in the United Kingdom, who may become Members of the Association, owe allegiance to their own Country. To meet these circumstances, there are different forms of
the Beaver Scout, Cub Scout and Scout Promise that can be made, allowing for the individuals obligations while upholding the essential spirit of the Promise.

The phrase ‘to love God’ and ‘duty to God’ implies belief in a Supreme Being and the acceptance of Divine Guidance. In each Promise the phrase 'Duty to God’ or, in the case of Beaver Scouts, ‘to love God’, is suitable for most faiths (including Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims and Sikhs). Hindus may use either the words ‘my Dharma’ or 'God’. Muslims may use the word ‘Allah’ in place of ‘God’. Buddhists should use only the words ‘my Dharma’. Muslims may use the phrase ‘In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful’ in place of ‘On my honour’ when making the Promise.

The Association provides advice where some other form of wording is required for a member of a particular faith or religion.For people of other nationalities resident in the United Kingdom taking the Cub Scout or Scout
Promise, the phrase ‘duty ...to the Queen’ may be replaced by ‘duty...to the Country in which I am now living’. However, British subjects must promise to do their ‘duty...to the Queen’.

The tables below (onsite) show the different forms of
the Promise:

Notes:
1. For some Muslims there is a difficulty with the phrase “On my honour” because some Muslims are not permitted to “swear by” anything except Allah. The phrase “On my honour” indicates swearing by their personal honour. ‘In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent the Most Merciful…’ has therefore been provided as a comparable alternative.
2. There are many different approaches to Islam. Many will accept the term ‘God’ (meaning Allah’) some Muslims may prefer to use their term ‘Allah’
3. There are many different approaches to Hinduism. Some Hindus will accept ‘God’ but others do not agree with the concept of an omnipotent God and therefore will prefer to use my Dharma’ (meaning ‘the divine force which
directs my life’)
4. Where some other form of wording is required for a member of a particular faith or religion, advice should be sought from The Programme and Development Department.

In making a decision it is important to:
a. Recognise the individual’s nationality
b. Be fully aware of the exact nature of their faith or religion
c. Ensure that the Promise taken is fully binding to them personally
d. Provide literature on the Scout Movement for young person’s parents (where the parents do not speak or read English, information should be provided in their own language)
e. Assure parents of Members that their child’s religious obligations will be upheld.

It seems to me that the Scouts is completely open and specific about its faith requirements, so anyone who hasn't bothered to read their literature deserves to be banned, since he/she is the wrong sort of applicant for the organisation, anyway .....

[CharlieO]

im forced to go to chapel every day in school but i hate religion so i refuse when they say bow your heads or sing a hymn, i get evil stares of teachers but i dont care

[Alf]

if he's a non believer i dont see why he's making a big issue of it, surley he can just pledge and then say "that was a waste of time.

i suppose this means he dosn't get christmas present's then

[Roy Mars III]

their choice

[Mrluvaluva]

Originally Posted by Omah

The Scouts is a faith organisation which, apparently, caters for almost any faith :

http://www.scouts.org.uk/supportreso...ch/?cat=25,285



http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/...s/fs322016.pdf



It seems to me that the Scouts is completely open and specific about its faith requirements, so anyone who hasn't bothered to read their literature deserves to be banned, since he/she is the wrong sort of applicant for the organisation, anyway .....

Well you could argue from there that his religious obligations are not being upheld or taken into account.

[Omah]

Originally Posted by Mrluvaluva

Well you could argue from there that his religious obligations are not being upheld or taken into account.

No, I couldn't because, apparently, he has NO faith (and presumably no " religious obligations") so therefore nothing to pledge to ...... the Scouts do not insist that the faith has to include a "God":

Some Hindus will accept ‘God’ but others do not agree with the concept of an omnipotent God and therefore will prefer to use my Dharma’ (meaning ‘the divine force which directs my life’)

[swinearefine]

It's the Scouts decision, but they're twunts all the same.

[Pyramid*]

Well - tough luck.

It has a religious belief at it's very foundation - you'd have thought the parents would have been around long enough to have realised that.

Perhaps Daddy should spend more time educating himself on such (pretty basic things), and less time going to the press about piffle like this.

What's next: is he going to complain that the Brownies won't accept his son because he is male and not female?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yes. Perhaps the thinking is that the whole organisation should change their ethos so that people who don't agree with what the organisation stands for should be able to be included. Makes you wonder why he wanted to be a member anyway.

Camping, abseiling, canoeing, raft building............ just a guess

[Mrluvaluva]

Originally Posted by Omah

No, I couldn't because, apparently, he has NO faith (and presumably no " religious obligations") so therefore nothing to pledge to ...... the Scouts do not insist that the faith has to include a "God":

Well he chooses not to believe. That's his obligation.

A lot of kids practice (and I use the term loosely) religion in order to please their peers, when they don't necessarily believe in that. I really don't see the point in this. What is the point to faith if you do not believe in it? And being excluded because of your belief is surely not right? Would the church ban you from services if you did not join in prayer or hymns?

[Omah]

Originally Posted by Mrluvaluva

Well he chooses not to believe. That's his obligation.

I don't think you mean "obligation" (An obligation is a course of action that someone is required to take, whether legal or moral.), but I get your gist.

If he doesn't believe in a spiritual existence or entity then he can't join the Scouts - endof.

If he waits until he's 12, he will be eligible to join the Army Cadet Force :

http://armycadets.com/

The ACF is a national, voluntary, uniformed youth organisation. It is sponsored by the Army but not part of it and neither our cadets nor our adult volunteer leaders are subject to military call-up. We offer a broad range of challenging adventurous and educational activities, some of them on a military theme. Our aim is to inspire young people to achieve success in life and develop in them the qualities of a good citizen.

I don't think they'll see a lack of spirituality as a problem,

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Mrluvaluva

Well he chooses not to believe. That's his obligation.A lot of kids practice (and I use the term loosely) religion in order to please their peers, when they don't necessarily believe in that. I really don't see the point in this. What is the point to faith if you do not believe in it? And being excluded because of your belief is surely not right? Would the church ban you from services if you did not join in prayer or hymns?

The family are upholding their beliefs , but expecting the Scouts to have a look at theirs and change them to suit it seems, spoilt pushy parent syndrome.