[arista]

But if she wants to speak on the Stand
that Veil must come off.




Hey Fella it Ain't raining



"22-year-old, from East London, denies charge
of witness intimidation
Judge Peter Murphy ruled Muslim woman will be
allowed to stand trial wearing a full-face veil but
must remove it while giving evidence"

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2f4axIFz7









Sign Of The Times

[Tom4784]

It's fair enough, nobody else would be allowed to wear something that obscured their face in court.

[Nedusa]

Why does she want to cover her face in court ? What has she got to hide....Hmmmm is she hiding something ... Makes you think she is so our reactions to her will be biased from the outset. So wearing this veil is adding to most people's discriminatory views of Muslims.

I say it should be banned in all public places like in France...!!

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I say it should be banned in all public places like in France...!!

I really don't understand why anybody would want this.


The number of muslim women who wear the veil is tiny. It's less than 1 per cent of muslim women. Less than 1 per cent of one half of one minority population.

It does not require legislating against.

And we have to ask ourselves why we would want to legislate against face veils. Is it to protect ourselves? (from this tiny number of women) or to protect them (from the patriarchal silencing that veils represent)?

If it's the former, then I think we have become far too fearful as a nation. The transformation of Islam into the Big Bad Wolf is complete.

If it's the latter, then we risk doing more harm than good to those we seek to protect.

There are a number of reasons why a muslim women will wear the veil:

• A genuine desire to show 'modesty' and express their faith and culture

• A rebellious (often late teenage) adoption of a visibly Islamic style, sometimes in opposition to parents who are themselves quite western

• Pressure from strict, puritanical parents

If it's the first then it is wholly illiberal to stand in the way of heartfelt expressions of faith, which cause no actual harm to anybody else

If it's the second, then outlawing such expressions of Islamic identity will simply fuel that rebelliousness

If it's the third, then all we do is drive those women further into the home and if their family is very strict effectively prevent them from participating in any kind of public life.

It is a ridiculous thing, to me, to ban the wearing of a piece of apparel out of some sense of cultural queasiness on our parts.

[Jack_]

Pretty much really

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I really don't understand why anybody would want this.


The number of muslim women who wear the veil is tiny. It's less than 1 per cent of muslim women. Less than 1 per cent of one half of one minority population.

It does not require legislating against.

And we have to ask ourselves why we would want to legislate against face veils. Is it to protect ourselves? (from this tiny number of women) or to protect them (from the patriarchal silencing that veils represent)?

If it's the former, then I think we have become far too fearful as a nation. The transformation of Islam into the Big Bad Wolf is complete.

If it's the latter, then we risk doing more harm than good to those we seek to protect.

There are a number of reasons why a muslim women will wear the veil:

• A genuine desire to show 'modesty' and express their faith and culture

• A rebellious (often late teenage) adoption of a visibly Islamic style, sometimes in opposition to parents who are themselves quite western

• Pressure from strict, puritanical parents

If it's the first then it is wholly illiberal to stand in the way of heartfelt expressions of faith, which cause no actual harm to anybody else

If it's the second, then outlawing such expressions of Islamic identity will simply fuel that rebelliousness

If it's the third, then all we do is drive those women further into the home and if their family is very strict effectively prevent them from participating in any kind of public life.

It is a ridiculous thing, to me, to ban the wearing of a piece of apparel out of some sense of cultural queasiness on our parts.

Good post, agree

Though I would say that allowing the veil to be worn in court but taken off during giving evidence is a reasonable compromise

[DanaC]

Oh absolutely. There are circumstances in which wearing a face covering of any kind is simply not acceptable. Likewise, I think banning the veil in school classrooms is appropriate. But not in colleges or universities.

There isa potential for the veil to create an additional barrier to learning. Children are in compulsory education and are too young to make a decision about the value of their education. College and university students are adults who have made a choice and paid fees (or accessed learning funds) for that learning. If they choose to add a potential barrier to getting the most from that experience that's their choice.

These things are already in place. The ruling on this woman is now set as precedent. In future trials, a muslim woman who wishes to remain veiled will be able to do so until she gives evidence, at which point she must remove the veil.

It is entirely possible, as this and the recent furore over the college ban, to find a case by case solution, as different circumstances are tested.

The massive press coverage and general hysteria following in its wake are a product of our cultural fears and suspicions. We are very, very quick to leap to suspicion and recrimination the second the case concerns Islam.

[Livia]

This is Britain. If someone is standing trial in a court of law then they must not have their face covered. Special exceptions should not be made for anyone, whatever religion they are. If this is allowed, next we'll be having people standing trial in balaclavas and full face crash helmets. It will be interesting to see the outcome of the trial. Someone so devout they insist on expressing their faith in this extreme way... but engages in a criminal act, which I'm sure is against the rules of the Quran. Look forward to seeing how it pans out.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Livia

If this is allowed, next we'll be having people standing trial in balaclavas and full face crash helmets.

This is taking the argument to an absurd level. What rationale could be offered for wearing either of these items in court?

There is no argument possible on grounds of freedom of religious and cultural expression.

All it took to resolve this issue was for there to be a female officer present to identify the woman and testify to that identity.

Personally, I think she's being foolish. Given it is a choice for her to wear it, it wold not have harmed her to allow her face to be seen by males on this occasion. Instead she has possibly damaged herself in the eyes of the jury.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by DanaC

This is taking the argument to an absurd level. What rationale could be offered for wearing either of these items in court?

There is no argument possible on grounds of freedom of religious and cultural expression.

All it took to resolve this issue was for there to be a female officer present to identify the woman and testify to that identity.

Personally, I think she's being foolish. Given it is a choice for her to wear it, it wold not have harmed her to allow her face to be seen by males on this occasion. Instead she has possibly damaged herself in the eyes of the jury.

I don't think it's absurd that if one person can speak in court with a mask on, others should not be allowed to do the same.

Oh please... religious and cultural expression? We only hear from the vocal agitators who choose to wear this ridiculous garb. We're not hearing from the oppressed majority who have no choice. Display your religious paraphernalia as much as you like... but no face covering for women.

I worked in an east London college when I left uni and I mixed with some of the girls in the veil. While there were always one or two militants wanting, not equality, but special treatment... the majority of them were rather nervous, unworldly, undervalued little girls who will never know what it's like to live a free life and make their own choices. And people standing up for the veil are aiding their oppression, in my opinion.

[Firewire]

I don't think it's fair to ban veils but I also don't think it's right for women to stand trial wearing their veils... what if it isn't them?

[waterhog]

i just started a poll on this - will be interesting to see how the vote goes.

[arista]

Originally Posted by waterhog

i just started a poll on this - will be interesting to see how the vote goes.

It had a Debate on The Wright Stuff
but most callers said the Sun paper had it right.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I really don't understand why anybody would want this.


The number of muslim women who wear the veil is tiny. It's less than 1 per cent of muslim women. Less than 1 per cent of one half of one minority population.

It does not require legislating against.

And we have to ask ourselves why we would want to legislate against face veils. Is it to protect ourselves? (from this tiny number of women) or to protect them (from the patriarchal silencing that veils represent)?

If it's the former, then I think we have become far too fearful as a nation. The transformation of Islam into the Big Bad Wolf is complete.

If it's the latter, then we risk doing more harm than good to those we seek to protect.

There are a number of reasons why a muslim women will wear the veil:

• A genuine desire to show 'modesty' and express their faith and culture

• A rebellious (often late teenage) adoption of a visibly Islamic style, sometimes in opposition to parents who are themselves quite western

• Pressure from strict, puritanical parents

If it's the first then it is wholly illiberal to stand in the way of heartfelt expressions of faith, which cause no actual harm to anybody else

If it's the second, then outlawing such expressions of Islamic identity will simply fuel that rebelliousness

If it's the third, then all we do is drive those women further into the home and if their family is very strict effectively prevent them from participating in any kind of public life.

It is a ridiculous thing, to me, to ban the wearing of a piece of apparel out of some sense of cultural queasiness on our parts.

I don't like to see women walking around with a small tent wrapped around them covered from head to foot.....why would anybody want to do that ??

And to make it only apply to women and to use religion as the supposed reason is outrageous in the extreme.

And for these women to think they actually have made a conscious decision to dress like this is utter self delusion. these women are FORCED by their husbands using religion as the excuse to dress like this, some of them have conditioned themselves to believe in this claptrap as a way of sidestepping the real issue of being bullied by their menfolk into doing this.

No woman......No woman would willingly, wantonly dress like this in public it is utterly ridiculous.

I wish this type of dress was banned in Public places in the UK (like France) it makes my blood boil when I see women abused like this....!!!!!

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Why does she want to cover her face in court ? What has she got to hide....Hmmmm is she hiding something ... Makes you think she is so our reactions to her will be biased from the outset. So wearing this veil is adding to most people's discriminatory views of Muslims.

I say it should be banned in all public places like in France...!!

I agree, I really believe that as a citizen of the UK, I should have the right to see fully who I am walking the streets with and going into Stores with too.
Everyone can see who I am and I should be able to see completely who I am around in any public place.

Especially in these worrying times.