[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Salman!

Stop playing the defensive atheist, I didn't say any of that I'm just saying that religion holds people down

Wrong, civility holds people up not down. religion is exploited by evil people.
We are all animals but humans are the only animals who take more than they need.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Salman!

This is the stupidest claim ever

It's really not. You can dispute a church's role in shaping and structuring societies and civilisations versus the comparative harm they have wrought but any usefulness that the major world religions may have had in the past has long evaporated.

I'm hardly atheist by any stretch of the imagination but apart from a new spiritual order I would much rather a world ran by atheists. Organized religion in it's current guise is an antiquated blight on consciousness. Systems of societal control and nothing more.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Stu

It's really not. You can dispute a church's role in shaping and structuring societies and civilisations versus the comparative harm they have wrought but any usefulness that the major world religions may have had in the past has long evaporated.

I'm hardly atheist by any stretch of the imagination but apart from a new spiritual order I would much rather a world ran by atheists. Organized religion in it's current guise is an antiquated blight on consciousness. Systems of societal control and nothing more.

Could you repeat that in words of 3 syllables or less?

[Me. I Am Salman]

Originally Posted by Stu

It's really not. You can dispute a church's role in shaping and structuring societies and civilisations versus the comparative harm they have wrought but any usefulness that the major world religions may have had in the past has long evaporated.

I'm hardly atheist by any stretch of the imagination but apart from a new spiritual order I would much rather a world ran by atheists. Organized religion in it's current guise is an antiquated blight on consciousness. Systems of societal control and nothing more.

I can see why religion controlling the world can be problematic

I just mean it's important it exists in some form

[Stu]

Fair enough. I'm of the opinion that heavy dogmas, big books, special outfits and stained glass windows distract people from actual instinctual spirituality though.

[Kizzy]

Civilisations existed in harmony prior to religion, theres no reason to believe the emergence of religion made anything better..

[Kyle]

If anyone needs a fine example of both sides of the coin regarding are we civilised I watched a video on youtube about a group of monkeys who lived indoors under captivity for 30 years being released into a much larger outdoor reservation.

Seeing the look of astonishment on their faces as the door slid open and sunlight hit them for the first time nearly brought a tear to my eye. How can a rational human being lack the compassion to keep an animal caged up like that is beyond me.

[lostalex]

Spend some time on a site called http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/ and you will truly lose all faith in "civilized society".

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Salman!

I can see why religion controlling the world can be problematic

I just mean it's important it exists in some form

This is a debate and I welcome your contribution just as much as any other persons even though I disagree.

Personally I wouldn't shed a tear if all organised religion followed the Dodo into extinction but fair play Salman.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Stu

Fair enough. I'm of the opinion that heavy dogmas, big books, special outfits and stained glass windows distract people from actual instinctual spirituality though.

Hallelujah!! agree 100%

[Ninastar]

no. there will always be religious extremists who believe there is no other way.

[Kyle]

Let's be fair here though, our attitude towards chosen faiths isn't the only thing that stops us from achieving social parity.

Attitude towards other human beings

Attitudes towards other sentient beings

And

Attitudes to towards the planet

Are all major sticking points still.

All we as humans seem to be good at is inventing better ways to kill each other.

[Me. I Am Salman]

Originally Posted by Simple Minds

You said without religion there would be more social disorder.


I would thus conclude from that you mean to ascertain atheists lack morality in comparison with theists.

Religion when followed correctly instils morals, I'm not saying it's the only institution that does that I'm saying it's one of them. So it's just common sense to assume if it didn't exist then crime rates would increase, because not everyone has access to other institutions like education, or are influenced strongly enough by other institutions (like you aren't influenced by religion)

or something like that. Ugh I cba to think don't put me on the spot I know what I said

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Salman!

Religion when followed correctly instils morals, I'm not saying it's the only institution that does that I'm saying it's one of them. So it's just common sense to assume if it didn't exist then crime rates would increase, because not everyone has access to other institutions like education, or are influenced strongly enough by other institutions (like you aren't influenced by religion)

or something like that. Ugh I cba to think don't put me on the spot I know what I said

Are you trying to instigate a bitch fight on my thread?

[Ammi]

..I believe that people are intrinsically good, but there are ‘bad’ people, of course... there is good and bad in most things but if there wasn’t so much good, far more than there is 'bad or evil’ then the world would be a much worse place than it is..so far as religion goes, I’m not personally religious through choice but I was brought up in a faith.. and I know many, many ‘good christian’ people...people whose faith makes them better people and gives them strength to cope with what they need to when life sucks a bit and also gives them the understanding of compassion for others and less self absorbed... so for some people, many people I would say that religion is good and positive...we all need something to ‘believe in’ , whether it be our families, friends, faith etc....there are of course extremists and those extremists are what causes ‘the bad/evil etc’ not the religion itself imo....



..a quote I love is from a Dali Lama.... “My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness.”...

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..a quote I love is from a Dali Lama.... “My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness.”...

Didn't the Dali Lama also once say that homosexuality is wrong and is against nature?

"the exiled Tibetan leader said at a press conference yesterday in San Francisco. "From a Buddhist point of view, men-to-men and women-to-women is generally considered sexual misconduct."

"The Dalai Lama said the same Buddhist scripture that advises against gay and lesbian sex also urges heterosexuals to refrain from oral sex, anal sex and masturbation. "Even with your own wife, using one's mouth or the other hole is sexual misconduct," he said. "Using one's hand, that is sexual misconduct."

So it sounds like Buddhists are just like Christians in their beliefs about homosexuality. That's not a good thing. Basically a "hate the sin, love the sinner" type of mentality. They are basically against any sex that is not a man and a woman having vaginal intercourse for procreation.

[Kyle]

A religion of kindness.....unless your gay.

[Verbal]

Organised religion can and does provide a grounding for people, and can also be at the center of a community of people who without it would have nothing. What I don't understand is why Atheists feel the need to get on their high horses and exclaim from the mountain tops 'there is no God, you dip****s' deal with it! Religion is far, far more than that.

Atheists mind your own damn business.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Verbal

Organised religion can and does provide a grounding for people, and can also be at the center of a community of people who without it would have nothing. What I don't understand is why Atheists feel the need to get on their high horses and exclaim from the mountain tops 'there is no God, you dip****s' deal with it! Religion is far, far more than that.

Atheists mind your own damn business.

People are all allowed their own opinions on whether God exists or not just as I am entitled to my opinion that religion is an archaic waste of time. Just my opinion, take it or stuff it.

[Verbal]

Originally Posted by Simple Minds

People are all allowed their own opinions on whether God exists or not just as I am entitled to my opinion that religion is an archaic waste of time. Just my opinion, take it or stuff it.

There is a difference between stating your opinion and belittling people who have these beliefs. Its not hurting you if people want Religion to be part of their lives. Mind your own business.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Verbal

That is just simply not true. Stop being a dick. The Dalai Lama does not speak for all Buddhists, he's not a Pope, figure. The ONLY place in Buddhism where homosexuality is explicity forbidden is in the Vinaya, which is Buddhist monastic rules. In short, it applies to monks and nuns only. Then again, all sex is forbidden to monks and nuns.

Someone's been fishing for quotes I'm sure I just read something pretty much the same as that 5 minutes ago.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Verbal

There is a difference between stating your opinion and belittling people who have these beliefs. Its not hurting you if people want Religion to be part of their lives. Mind your own business.

If my opinion belittles you so be it it is my opinion, it is representative of me only.

[Verbal]

Originally Posted by Simple Minds

If my opinion belittles you so be it it is my opinion, it is representative of me only.

I wasnt directly referring to you, i've barely skimmed this thread. I've just seen a few people belittling people for being Religious. That is not expressing your opinion. At least not in an intelligent way.

[Verbal]

Originally Posted by Simple Minds

Someone's been fishing for quotes I'm sure I just read something pretty much the same as that 5 minutes ago.

Yes I copied and pasted the last bit as it goes

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Verbal

That is just simply not true. Stop being a dick. The Dalai Lama does not speak for all Buddhists, he's not a Pope, figure. The ONLY place in Buddhism where homosexuality is explicity forbidden is in the Vinaya, which is Buddhist monastic rules. In short, it applies to monks and nuns only. Then again, all sex is forbidden to monks and nuns.

but if buddhism believes that all people are equal, why would there be different rules for different people? That's a bit puzzling, don't you think?