[Z]

Originally Posted by Benjamin

We were created because women could no longer be trusted to dress themselves.

LOL

[Toy Soldier]

I would point out that the nature / nurture debate has nothing to do with the "choice" debate... nurture does not mean "choice", it just means that the psychology is shaped by early experiences. It's no more of a "choice" though... just as (for example, I'm not making a direct comparison!) a phobia is almost always rooted in early childhood, but is certainly not a choice... it's as ingrained as any instinct.

So anyway, away from the nature/nurture debate, whichever it is, I certainly don't believe that it's a choice. One of my best friends, who I've known for almost 15 years, is gay and quite "obviously" gay. Not an Alan Carr or a Rylan level of obvious, but at least a Graham Norton on the scale. You can tell, basically. Anyway - myself and basically all of his close friends were CERTAIN that he was gay, from when we were around 14. Like I said it was just obvious! We brought it up with him several times and he said he wasn't. I once even pushed the issue by asking if he fancied anyone in our year, and he really did try... bless him... to pretend that he did. When I asked what he liked about her, he said she's "just really nice".

He kept up this pretense for years (we didn't constantly badger him about it, just occasional comments like "yes but that's because you're obvz gay..." which he would laugh off) and didn't actually "come out" until we were 19 and at University. He did it like a big reveal at the pub, as if it would be a shock, it was brilliant.

"Guys.. I have something I need to tell you all..."
"Is it that you're gay?"
"...yes..."
"FINALLY!!!"

OK so I'm rambling a bit - but anyway, the point is, we knew he was gay before he was ready to say it to anyone or even admit it to himself properly. For FIVE YEARS. So we knew that he WAS gay before he ever made the "choice" to be openly gay / start any sort of homosexual relationship. So saying that it's a "choice" makes no sense. If that was the case, no one would have noticed any "gay traits" until he "chose it". Surely.

[Niamh.]

Unless he choose it because everyone thought he was gay anyway

I joke, I Joke!!!!

[Kizzy]

I remember seeing an interview with Dale Winton, he was explaining how he was around his mother who was a dancer and all her beautiful friends from a very young age as well as a very fiery strong confident aunt.
To me in that he seemed to imply that it had a bearing on his development as he wanted to be them and emulated them. This isn't me putting forward an argument for nurture but it's always stuck in my mind as an odd thing to say as I had never heard anyone say anything like it before.

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I remember seeing an interview with Dale Winton, he was explaining how he was around his mother who was a dancer and all her beautiful friends from a very young age as well as a very fiery strong confident aunt.
To me in that he seemed to imply that it had a bearing on his development as he wanted to be them and emulated them. This isn't me putting forward an argument for nurture but it's always stuck in my mind as an odd thing to say as I had never heard anyone say anything like it before.

the fact that he wanted to be like them has no influence on sexuality

[Z]

Good point Toy Soldier, nurture is wrongly equated with the choice argument... I do think nurture plays a role in the development of everyone's psyche (because that's what nurturing is - development) - just as someone can become afraid of spiders or become passionate about being a trapeze artist; someone can develop a love or hate for all sorts of things... but ultimately I think a person is born gay.

[Samm]

I started not likening girls when I was about 13, so I don't know if it's nature or not but I don't care that much

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Sam <3

I started not likening girls when I was about 13, so I don't know if it's nature or not but I don't care that much

Well, thing is, people say, infact someone in here already said, I liked boys from when i was born. That to me is absurd lol most "straight" boys hate girls until they're almost at a teenage stage. My 9 year old still closes his eyes if he sees people on TV kissing

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by Benjamin

We were created because women could no longer be trusted to dress themselves.

Says the 30 years old man who was dressed like 15 yo skater on New Year's Eve.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Chuck

Says the 30 years old man who was dressed like 15 yo skater on New Year's Eve.

[Samm]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well, thing is, people say, infact someone in here already said, I liked boys from when i was born. That to me is absurd lol most "straight" boys hate girls until they're almost at a teenage stage. My 9 year old still closes his eyes if he sees people on TV kissing

I know what you mean, I am 16 now, I think when your about 12 or 13 you open up to your sexuality

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Chuck

Says the 30 years old man who was dressed like 15 yo skater on New Year's Eve.

Five years from now, she sits at home
Feeding the baby, she's all alone

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well, thing is, people say, infact someone in here already said, I liked boys from when i was born. That to me is absurd lol most "straight" boys hate girls until they're almost at a teenage stage. My 9 year old still closes his eyes if he sees people on TV kissing

As a straight boy, that's not necessarily true. I remember having sort of attraction feelings but not really understanding them, and from my own experience it was easier to say that I hated girls to avoid being teased about different girls and having a girlfriend. I definitely didn't hate girls, but I wasn't equipped to deal with the other side of the coin.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Benjamin

Five years from now, she sits at home
Feeding the baby, she's all alone

[...] Looks up at the man
That she turned dooooowwwwn

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by Zee

[...] Looks up at the man
That she turned dooooowwwwn

[..]Now he's a superstar
Slamming on his guitar
Does your pretty face see what he's worth?

[Z]

Originally Posted by Chuck

[..]Now he's a superstar
Slamming on his guitar
Does your pretty face see what he's worth?

God I remember not finding Avril annoying and repetitive, she was pretty great back then

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

As a straight boy, that's not necessarily true. I remember having sort of attraction feelings but not really understanding them, and from my own experience it was easier to say that I hated girls to avoid being teased about different girls and having a girlfriend. I definitely didn't hate girls, but I wasn't equipped to deal with the other side of the coin.

mmm well, i was never a boy, straight or not so I don't know I actually don't even remember myself at what point I noticed an attraction to the opposite sex

[Z]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

mmm well, i was never a boy, straight or not so I don't know I actually don't even remember myself at what point I noticed an attraction to the opposite sex

I think it's normal for kids to do the whole "ugh, gross" thing at kissing, think you only really become aware of romantic feelings when you're like 12 or 13

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Zee

I think it's normal for kids to do the whole "ugh, gross" thing at kissing, think you only really become aware of romantic feelings when you're like 12 or 13

yeah, I think that's when I became interested

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Zee

Good point Toy Soldier, nurture is wrongly equated with the choice argument... I do think nurture plays a role in the development of everyone's psyche (because that's what nurturing is - development) - just as someone can become afraid of spiders or become passionate about being a trapeze artist; someone can develop a love or hate for all sorts of things... but ultimately I think a person is born gay.

Yes me too, but for some the psycho-sexual stimulus is felt earlier due to environment.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Zee

I'm begging a mod to add this to emoticons!

[Z]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm begging a mod to add this to emoticons!

Yeah I agree with you about some people being affected earlier than others... interesting topic, I hope it's something that can be proven some way in my lifetime!

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

As a straight boy, that's not necessarily true. I remember having sort of attraction feelings but not really understanding them, and from my own experience it was easier to say that I hated girls to avoid being teased about different girls and having a girlfriend. I definitely didn't hate girls, but I wasn't equipped to deal with the other side of the coin.

Agreed; I distinctly remember having "feelings" for a girl in my class when I was 6 . I remember telling my mum's friend (in confidence) that I had met a girl at school who I was going to marry. And being confused when she wouldn't stop giggling .

But yeah, I also remember being "chased" by a group of girls who were pushing along another girl who apparently "fancied me" trying to get us to kiss when I was maybe 8 or 9. It was all running away and "Eww! Yuck! I hate girls!!" but it was more just embarrassment / not knowing how to react.

I also remember a few 8 and 9 year olds having "girlfriends and boyfriends" ... and also, a 10 year old boy getting a blowjob from a 12 year old girl behind the bike sheds. How ****ed up is that? At the time it seemed like he must have been "so cool"... but thinking about it now... children! Children getting sucked off at school . So messed up, hahaha.

[Z]

Originally Posted by yellowbelly

I honestly havent got a clue. It is rather disturbing though that so many people seem to state with absolute certainty it is 100% nature end of discussion. Id imagine we are pretty early in our studying and understanding of this. sexuality is profoundly complex

Well I think when the debate has only opened up to "nature or nature", providing only two options, it's going to encourage a decisive opinion. It's a bit like asking someone if they're left or right, politically, when in reality if you asked someone in detail about their political views you'd find that two people who responded with the same answer actually have totally different views and can't possibly be categorised as being of the same opinion.

I agree that our understanding of sexuality is limited, but from what we do/don't know at this stage, I think it's very easy to say it's nature or nurture; we just don't know.

[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I think people are born gay. If it was nurture, then you wouldnt get brothers and sisters that were different sexualities.

Also don't think its a choice. Without offendng gay people (which I probably will do anyway) I dont see why anyone would actually chose to go against the 'norm' so to speak, and put themselves through all of the **** that apparently comes with being gay (ridicule when young, homophobia etc)

I'm not offended.

Speaking personally, it isn't a choice I made to feel the way I do about men. It affects my relationship with my dad to the point where I don't like him a lot of the time and vice versa. He's dead against gay people in every shape and form. My brother is gay and he's in a serious relationship with another man, one day I think they will get married and my father has stated quite ignorantly, that he wont be attending, and that he doesn't agree with it. No one would choose to be outcasted and made to feel inadequate of their own accord.

Although I have had relationships with women, (one quite serious, until she cheated on me ) I'm now settled within myself about my feelings towards men but like I say, it affects my relationship with my dad, and we were once quite close. When he got wind that I liked cock he slipped away. I wish it was different of course, but thats the way it is.

If only it was a choice I could make