[Vicky.]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...es-kebabs.html

This is just ****ing ridiculous. 30k spent on a gastric band and the following procedures..and the guy starts eating liquefied kebabs and stuff. Surely it would make sense to have some kind of 'food counselling' or something after throwing all that money at his ops? Mind maybe they didn't think he would be sick enough to do this.

A girl I know has been an alcoholic since she was a young teen and is about 35 or so now. This past 2 years she has been in hospital for various procedures (usually draining liquid from around her liver) which must have cost a bomb. But whats the point? She gets out and starts getting pissed again. What good is doing all these ops and such on her doing...besides wasting money the NHS doesn't have?

We have idiots like that Josie Cunningham bragging about getting BOOB JOBS on the NHS to further their careers...

And now we have the hormone blocking rubbish for 9 year olds in the pipeline.

Honestly, is it any wonder the NHS is skint? Stuff like this seriously bugs me when there are cancer patients and such who are denied treatment as funding is too low, yet we can give gastric bands to people who waste them, and help to alcoholics who have no intention of getting better? Boob jobs to bimbos and potentially life ruining procedures to children...

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...es-kebabs.html

This is just ****ing ridiculous. 30k spent on a gastric band and the following procedures..and the guy starts eating liquefied kebabs and stuff. Surely it would make sense to have some kind of 'food counselling' or something after throwing all that money at his ops? Mind maybe they didn't think he would be sick enough to do this.

A girl I know has been an alcoholic since she was a young teen and is about 35 or so now. This past 2 years she has been in hospital for various procedures (usually draining liquid from around her liver) which must have cost a bomb. But whats the point? She gets out and starts getting pissed again. What good is doing all these ops and such on her doing...besides wasting money the NHS doesn't have?

We have idiots like that Josie Cunningham bragging about getting BOOB JOBS on the NHS to further their careers...

And now we have the hormone blocking rubbish for 9 year olds in the pipeline.

Honestly, is it any wonder the NHS is skint? Stuff like this seriously bugs me when there are cancer patients and such who are denied treatment as funding is too low, yet we can give gastric bands to people who waste them, and help to alcoholics who have no intention of getting better? Boob jobs to bimbos and potentially life ruining procedures to children...

Couldn't agree more.

[Ninastar]

the NHS definitely needs to be looked at again... some people with depression are put on waiting lists for 8 months+... totally disgusting! I know two people now who have killed themselves because help wasn't available.

[smeagol]

yeah its all mad maybe they should have a seperate fund for the nhs that gets taken out of our wages and those who need gastric bands etc pay more.
i dont know something should be done as there is people in need of help just not getting it.
the alcoholic one is tricky you got to help them if you can if the health requires it.

gastric band is a luxury and should not be provided.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by smeagol

yeah its all made. maybe they should have a seperate fund for the nhs that gets taken out of our wages and those who need gastric bands etc pay more.
i dont know something should be done as there is people in need of help just not getting it.
the alcoholic one is tricky you got to help them if you can if the health requires it.

gastric band is a luxury and should not be provided.

But she has no intention of ever stopping drinking, and has told the nurses and such that too. Yet they are still obligated to help her? Seems wrong that

[Smithy]

imo people who continue their deteriorative behaviour should be refused all help on the NHS, be it alcoholics, obesity, drug abuse or cancer from smoking

they're the only people to blame for their problems, why should tax payers money be spent on them if they aren't willing to stop

[smeagol]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

But she has no intention of ever stopping drinking, and has told the nurses and such that too. Yet they are still obligated to help her? Seems wrong that

yea she's among thousands. but could you turn them away if they needed something medical.
its like if someone is obese and they have a heart attack you cant turn them away cause its there own fault and they wont change their lifestyle
you got to help them and hope some learn. is all they can do


gastric bands boob jobs and the kid thing though is bad. thats a choice not a need

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Smithy

imo people who continue their deteriorative behaviour should be refused all help on the NHS, be it alcoholics, obesity, drug abuse or cancer from smoking

they're the only people to blame for their problems, why should tax payers money be spent on them if they aren't willing to stop

They CAN do this too...my mum was told they wouldn't operate on her unless she stopped smoking and stayed off for 6 months.

Spoiler:

Longer story, she had a masectomy and they wanted to give her a reconstruction but she said she wanted other breast removed instead as a boob job at her age would look ridiculous plus she was worried about cancer coming back in other breast. After much fighting they finally agreed to remove 'healthy' breast..but with the above conditions

So I dont understand why they cant put these conditions on everyone if they can do it to my mum. Her cancer wasn't even related to smoking either

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Smithy

imo people who continue their deteriorative behaviour should be refused all help on the NHS, be it alcoholics, obesity, drug abuse or cancer from smoking

they're the only people to blame for their problems, why should tax payers money be spent on them if they aren't willing to stop

I agree actually

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by smeagol

yea she's among thousands. but could you turn them away if they needed something medical.
its like if someone is obese and they have a heart attack you cant turn them away cause its there own fault and they wont change their lifestyle
you got to help them and hope some learn. is all they can do


gastric bands boob jobs and the kid thing though is bad. thats a choice not a need

I don't know myself as to alcoholic related illnesses and smoking,after all the taxes on these items bring in massive revenue to the treasury.
As it happens however,I know someone who is an alcoholic, he really has tried to keep off it but fails.
There again, he wouldn't be an alcoholic if there weren't dangers of him relapsing and drinking again.

If alcoholics are not drink free for at least 6 months,then they would not be considered for a transplant, however it cannot be right to leave people in pain and not help someone if the help is available.

As I have seen, it is very far from easy being an alcoholic, once the Liver disease is advanced too then it is a hard existence,I couldn't turn my back on them.
It is also the ignorance of other people too, when out with the person I am taking about it is incredible the pressure he gets from others saying ''one drink won't hurt you'' and some have even poured a single vodka into his soft drink too.

People with any eating disorders be it obesity caused by overeating or people starving themselves are as much a drain on the NHS but I still hold with the view, they need help as well.
Turning backs on people doesn't seem a constructive answer to such problems,that's my thinking anyway.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

As it happens however,I know someone who is an alcoholic, he really has tried to keep off it but fails.
There again, he wouldn't be an alcoholic if therer were dangers of him relapsing and drinking again.

I have all kinds of respect..and pity really...for people who do want to quit but can't. However the girl I know has totally blackened my view tbh. She openly admits she will never try to get off it as she enjoys it, she has told nurses, consultants, everyone in the hospital that she has no intention of stopping drinking, yet they continue to waste money, time and resources on her when others who actually do want to help themselves are made to wait years for treatment. That in my eyes is completely wrong.

[Kizzy]

The bottom line is the NHS is there to help people regardless of circs or who feels they are not worth it... There are criteria to meet though, you will be offered bypass surgery if your BMI is over 40 provided you have made a considerable effort beforehand to show you're committed to maintaining weight loss.
Alcoholics usually have complex mental health issues but treatment for painful complications would never be denied as it would be inhumane, they need wraparound care via mental health services but this is sadly lacking as funding is cut further and further back.
I can't imagine why the ok was given for the boob job, that does seem to be referred on mental health grounds but personally I don't agree with it.
The gender issue is very new and it seem to me they are attempting to address the issue before the onset of puberty? medicine is I guess always in a state of flux, it's great that we are pioneering new treatments and research it benefits those in the future.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I have all kinds of respect..and pity really...for people who do want to quit but can't. However the girl I know has totally blackened my view tbh. She openly admits she will never try to get off it as she enjoys it, she has told nurses, consultants, everyone in the hospital that she has no intention of stopping drinking, yet they continue to waste money, time and resources on her when others who actually do want to help themselves are made to wait years for treatment. That in my eyes is completely wrong.

I wouldn't worry too much. If they're routinely having to drain fluid from around her liver, she'll be dead soon. So... there's that warm and fuzzy thought to keep you plugging on.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I wouldn't worry too much. If they're routinely having to drain fluid from around her liver, she'll be dead soon. So... there's that warm and fuzzy thought to keep you plugging on.

Well I thought that a year and a half ago when she started looking like a simpson, but it hasn't happened yet.

[Josy]

The obese guy should never have been given the gastric band or the procedures following to loosen it IMO he should have been sent to counselling and his over eating obsession should have been addressed, giving him the band and leaving him to 'cheat' it is just a ridiculous waste of cash that could have been used for more important issues.

I wouldn't be surprised if the NHS is no more in the very near future.

[Ammi]

..I've always had great faith in the NHS until a few things recently which seem all wrong to me and I do have every respect for people who work in it because decisions about spending etc are nothing to do with them...on topic with this story though, I do know someone who had to have surgery and she just jokingly said to the consultant..'oh, you couldn't give me a tummy tuck while you're doing it..'..it really was just a jokey remark but he said, yes we could do that actually and he did without any sort of other criteria for these things being met or even discussing diet lifestyles with her..anyway, within a very short time, she had exceeded her previous weight and the whole thing seemed pointless....very limited and precious funds are not always thought out carefully as to best usage....

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I have all kinds of respect..and pity really...for people who do want to quit but can't. However the girl I know has totally blackened my view tbh. She openly admits she will never try to get off it as she enjoys it, she has told nurses, consultants, everyone in the hospital that she has no intention of stopping drinking, yet they continue to waste money, time and resources on her when others who actually do want to help themselves are made to wait years for treatment. That in my eyes is completely wrong.

I accept all you say there, however we were not there as she was saying this.
I may well be wrong here and maybe being too soft on alcoholism but it does become a functioning mechanism, many alcoholics dread even the thought of not being able to feel as they do when they drink it.

A lot of external bravado in fact hides massive insecurity,fear and even screaming for help inside.

It is something that has to be kept plugging away, at to first get the acceptance of the problem from the person affected, and then hopefully guide them to get the real deep help needed.
Which often succeeds for a time but they can fail again and drink again which is why they are alcoholics.

I have come across people who say they will take their chance and live as they have been but once that breakthrough maybe comes and they are 'ready' for help then the old bravado and their on the surface confidence gives way to conceding the need for and receiving that help.

This person may or may not be arrogant in her attitude to her alcohol problem or she may be putting on that bravado act borne out of massive fear of the treatment she will hopefully one day accept.

As I say, maybe I am myself too soft,I just don't see how giving up on anyone who needs help but refuses to see that they do at present will be of any help or right even.

[InOne]

The thing is if a dependent alcoholic ends up in hospital for two days or something then that's not nearly enough time for a detox. What will happen is they'll be given librium for a few days and kicked out again once they seem stable. It's fair enough because they need beds but it's normally with no advice about alcoholism and they're still dependent. Then the cycle begins again.

I was lucky to get a full detox but that's only because I was homeless, if I'd have gone back to my old home environment I would've been straight back on it. So can't fault them for getting in contact with services to find me somewhere to live. I've completely taken the piss in the past though and I can understand why people have a view with alcoholics and hospital. But there's all sorts of stuff going on rather than the alcohol normally.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I accept all you say there, however we were not there as she was saying this.
I may well be wrong here and maybe being too soft on alcoholism but it does become a functioning mechanism, many alcoholics dread even the thought of not being able to feel as they do when they drink it.

A lot of external bravado in fact hides massive insecurity,fear and even screaming for help inside.

It is something that has to be kept plugging away, at to first get the acceptance of the problem from the person affected, and then hopefully guide them to get the real deep help needed.
Which often succeeds for a time but they can fail again and drink again which is why they are alcoholics.

I have come across people who say they will take their chance and live as they have been but once that breakthrough maybe comes and they are 'ready' for help then the old bravado and their on the surface confidence gives way to conceding the need for and receiving that help.

This person may or may not be arrogant in her attitude to her alcohol problem or she may be putting on that bravado act borne out of massive fear of the treatment she will hopefully one day accept.

As I say, maybe I am myself too soft,I just don't see how giving up on anyone who needs help but refuses to see that they do at present will be of any help or right even.

In the case of my mother (who died of pneumonia brought on by liver failure, at the end of March this year) it seems like there were many reasons. When she was alive I was endlessly frustrated by the fact that she wouldn't stop and didn't ever seem to try (she hadn't been sober more than a couple of days at a time since it started, around 15 years ago when I was in my early teens). It drove me mental, to the point where I was only just about putting up with her, and didn't particularly like having her around my kids. Sh wasn't a bad / horrible / nasty / aggressive drunk like some, but just tended to get "weird" or upset and my 4 year old would just look confused... I didn't want her around it.

I thought pretty much the same as what's being said in this thread, throughout my entire teens and for my adult life up until the point of her death. Why was she so selfish / why not just stop / if she was so miserable why keep doing it / what a waste of money, time and resources (she was in and out of hospital a few times a year).

I only actually started to understand why when we cleared out her house, and I found a load of notebooks / "workbook" type things from the times that she had been in a hospital rehab unit. It basically turns out that she had many complex issues from her childhood, her parents put extreme academic pressure on her and far too much expectation, and also there was some trauma from my grandmother (both of my grandparents were in WWII, a soldier and a nurse) telling her some pretty horrific things about what they had done during the war. I won't go into details but... messed up stuff.

Anyway, her alcoholism started when my grandmother died (my grandfather died before I was born), and a lot of it starteing was being unable to handle those old issues.

What I found most interesting was the mechanism for being unable to stop, though. She had been very social / confident and her family had some "standing" in the small village we were from. She started drinking and felt like a mess. When she was sober, she felt like people were staring at her like "one of the town drunks". Over a couple of years she basically began to suffer with extreme anxiety to the point that she couldn't set foot outside her house without having a drink first, and even at home, when she wasn't drunk, she started to panic about what a mess everything was. So anxiety leads to more drinking, which lead to her sliding further downhill (she started to look pretty awful after 5 or so years) which lead to more drinking... ad infinitum until she inevitable killed herself with it.

I don't have any anger at all about it any more. I think how her life panned out is tragic, really. I was barely affected by her death, because I emotionally cut off that connection over a decade ago... and that itself is tragic, because she never did.


ANYWAY... err... now that I've finished sharing my life story... the point is, I just don't feel like I used to about addicts any more. I feel awful for them. I wonder what happened in their past, or why their present is so miserable, that they have to dull it with substance abuse. The ones who proudly announce that they have no intention of stopping - I just feel bad for them. It definitely is bravado. It's pretending that there's some element of control when they know full well that they have none... that they're on a hurtling train with no breaks heading for a broken track next to a cliff.

No one would choose that life... if they truly had the choice.

[Kizzy]

I agree there is always some underlying emotional trauma and addiction is a way of blocking that imo. I feel so sad when I read about your mother TS, who quickly a life can unravel and spiral out of control... I've felt that way myself, like I'm only holding on by my fingernails over a cliff, it's not nice.
The gauge for me of this civilised society is how we treat those physically or mentally afflicted. The day we consider some 'worthless' it's over.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

In the case of my mother (who died of pneumonia brought on by liver failure, at the end of March this year) it seems like there were many reasons. When she was alive I was endlessly frustrated by the fact that she wouldn't stop and didn't ever seem to try (she hadn't been sober more than a couple of days at a time since it started, around 15 years ago when I was in my early teens). It drove me mental, to the point where I was only just about putting up with her, and didn't particularly like having her around my kids. Sh wasn't a bad / horrible / nasty / aggressive drunk like some, but just tended to get "weird" or upset and my 4 year old would just look confused... I didn't want her around it.

I thought pretty much the same as what's being said in this thread, throughout my entire teens and for my adult life up until the point of her death. Why was she so selfish / why not just stop / if she was so miserable why keep doing it / what a waste of money, time and resources (she was in and out of hospital a few times a year).

I only actually started to understand why when we cleared out her house, and I found a load of notebooks / "workbook" type things from the times that she had been in a hospital rehab unit. It basically turns out that she had many complex issues from her childhood, her parents put extreme academic pressure on her and far too much expectation, and also there was some trauma from my grandmother (both of my grandparents were in WWII, a soldier and a nurse) telling her some pretty horrific things about what they had done during the war. I won't go into details but... messed up stuff.

Anyway, her alcoholism started when my grandmother died (my grandfather died before I was born), and a lot of it starteing was being unable to handle those old issues.

What I found most interesting was the mechanism for being unable to stop, though. She had been very social / confident and her family had some "standing" in the small village we were from. She started drinking and felt like a mess. When she was sober, she felt like people were staring at her like "one of the town drunks". Over a couple of years she basically began to suffer with extreme anxiety to the point that she couldn't set foot outside her house without having a drink first, and even at home, when she wasn't drunk, she started to panic about what a mess everything was. So anxiety leads to more drinking, which lead to her sliding further downhill (she started to look pretty awful after 5 or so years) which lead to more drinking... ad infinitum until she inevitable killed herself with it.

I don't have any anger at all about it any more. I think how her life panned out is tragic, really. I was barely affected by her death, because I emotionally cut off that connection over a decade ago... and that itself is tragic, because she never did.


ANYWAY... err... now that I've finished sharing my life story... the point is, I just don't feel like I used to about addicts any more. I feel awful for them. I wonder what happened in their past, or why their present is so miserable, that they have to dull it with substance abuse. The ones who proudly announce that they have no intention of stopping - I just feel bad for them. It definitely is bravado. It's pretending that there's some element of control when they know full well that they have none... that they're on a hurtling train with no breaks heading for a broken track next to a cliff.

No one would choose that life... if they truly had the choice.

Thank you Toy Soldier for sharing all that on here. A really compelling story.
It was a story filled with reasons, after the loss of your Mum,that shows the complexities that often exist or existed in the past as to how someone may have been during their life and with some dependence on something like alcohol.

Your last paragraph says even more and for me yours is the post of this thread so far.
Really strong points throughout.

[arista]

What a Mess 13 years of New Labour left us

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

In the case of my mother (who died of pneumonia brought on by liver failure, at the end of March this year) it seems like there were many reasons. When she was alive I was endlessly frustrated by the fact that she wouldn't stop and didn't ever seem to try (she hadn't been sober more than a couple of days at a time since it started, around 15 years ago when I was in my early teens). It drove me mental, to the point where I was only just about putting up with her, and didn't particularly like having her around my kids. Sh wasn't a bad / horrible / nasty / aggressive drunk like some, but just tended to get "weird" or upset and my 4 year old would just look confused... I didn't want her around it.

I thought pretty much the same as what's being said in this thread, throughout my entire teens and for my adult life up until the point of her death. Why was she so selfish / why not just stop / if she was so miserable why keep doing it / what a waste of money, time and resources (she was in and out of hospital a few times a year).

I only actually started to understand why when we cleared out her house, and I found a load of notebooks / "workbook" type things from the times that she had been in a hospital rehab unit. It basically turns out that she had many complex issues from her childhood, her parents put extreme academic pressure on her and far too much expectation, and also there was some trauma from my grandmother (both of my grandparents were in WWII, a soldier and a nurse) telling her some pretty horrific things about what they had done during the war. I won't go into details but... messed up stuff.

Anyway, her alcoholism started when my grandmother died (my grandfather died before I was born), and a lot of it starteing was being unable to handle those old issues.

What I found most interesting was the mechanism for being unable to stop, though. She had been very social / confident and her family had some "standing" in the small village we were from. She started drinking and felt like a mess. When she was sober, she felt like people were staring at her like "one of the town drunks". Over a couple of years she basically began to suffer with extreme anxiety to the point that she couldn't set foot outside her house without having a drink first, and even at home, when she wasn't drunk, she started to panic about what a mess everything was. So anxiety leads to more drinking, which lead to her sliding further downhill (she started to look pretty awful after 5 or so years) which lead to more drinking... ad infinitum until she inevitable killed herself with it.

I don't have any anger at all about it any more. I think how her life panned out is tragic, really. I was barely affected by her death, because I emotionally cut off that connection over a decade ago... and that itself is tragic, because she never did.


ANYWAY... err... now that I've finished sharing my life story... the point is, I just don't feel like I used to about addicts any more. I feel awful for them. I wonder what happened in their past, or why their present is so miserable, that they have to dull it with substance abuse. The ones who proudly announce that they have no intention of stopping - I just feel bad for them. It definitely is bravado. It's pretending that there's some element of control when they know full well that they have none... that they're on a hurtling train with no breaks heading for a broken track next to a cliff.

No one would choose that life... if they truly had the choice.

..wow, I'm so sorry to hear about your mum Toy Soldier...I know someone who recently committed suicide and yes, she was an alcoholic..everyone who knew her, knew that but I think we all thought she was getting what she needed in terms of professional support and we also thought that what she needed from us was support as well and that would be enough..?..plus I think our concerns were also for her children and their welfare and I never ever thought that she would do anything that would mean leaving them anyway....anyway, after what happened and having spoken to a few people who work in mental healthcare and one of them an NHS psychologist, they've all really said the same thing...with funding and cutbacks, people with mental health issues are basically so often 'forgotten' and it's really frustrating them because they see where help is needed and aren't always able to do anything or not able to do what's needed in terms of therapies...it's so, so wrong..mental/emotional illness is as real as anything physical and it does kind of leave you completely disillusioned with the NHS and what it provides...

..having said that, whenever I myself have needed NHS treatment for anything physical or any of my family..?..I really can't fault them in what they have done...

[BigSister]

If I didnt have the nhs to fall back on for my eye injections and they came on nhs at just the right time we woukd have to stop now as it woukd be far too much money. Which is why people who just abuse the nhs and dont need it make me annoyed and the people who do need it for physical and mental needs are just swatted away

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

What a Mess 13 years of New Labour left us

I think it would be fair to say that they,Labour, got a fair few things wrong even on the NHS although for me they are the only party presently I would trust more with it now.

Then again they were dealing with a horrendous mess and rundown of the NHS after an 18 year unbroken run of power by the Conservatives up to 1997.
If anyone should have sorted out the NHS and had it running to full efficiency and near perfection then they should have done in that 18 years.
(Rather than have people waiting between a year and 18 months for a cataract operation, never mind other vital surgery and treatments waiting times).
Then leaving it on its knees in 1997.

The problems with the NHS, in the main for me, lie with the people at the very top, the managers who allow waste left,right and centre, while protecting their own little empires within the NHS.