[LeatherTrumpet]

• Exit polls have placed the hardline party as the country's most popular
• The ruling socialists appeared to trail well behind with just 14 per cent
• FN leader Marine Le Pen heralded victory for 'sovereign people of France'
• Prime Minister Manuel Valls described result as 'a shock, an earthquake'
• Le Pen called for French parliament to be dissolved to 'control borders'

It was the most striking of a number of successes for far-Right and anti-EU parties. Chillingly, there were signs a neo-Nazi candidate for the NPD party could be elected in Germany, giving the far-Right a foothold for the first time in decades.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz32npdIjIt

[arista]

Yes blame the French Socialist Hollande
for his mess




However
in Greece a Anti Euro Left Wing Party Won

[Aduk]

This is a party known for its anti-Semitic and racist views - so extreme that even Nigel Farage doesn't want to associate with them.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Aduk

This is a party known for its anti-Semitic and racist views - so extreme that even Nigel Farage doesn't want to associate with them.

Yes he is Not Stupid

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Aduk

This is a party known for its anti-Semitic and racist views - so extreme that even Nigel Farage doesn't want to associate with them.

Well not openly at any rate : Scary stuff going on in the world at the moment.

[MTVN]

The Front National's not stupid either, they're going to refuse to work with Golden Dawn and Jobbik in Hungary, they're trying just as hard to try and show they aren't racist as UKIP are

Given the difficulties of the last few years the anti-EU sentiment isn't surprising at all really either

[Livia]

For years now, if someone's started a discussion about immigration, a screaming Left has shut them down and branded them racist. We've seen Europe open its borders which has meant an inevitable influx of people into the richest countries from the poorest countries. Here, we've seen people arrive and claim benefits, tax credits, child benefit for kids who don't even live here, free medical care... meanwhile we have people living on the streets, children living in dire poverty, elderly people making the choice of freezing or starving and people denied life-giving healthcare because of the cost. If someone has tried to talk about it they've been called racist, they've been accused of being Daily Mail readers and they've been generally dismissed by a Left who seems committed to the doctrine that the louder you shout, the more insulting you get, the more right you are. No one listened... and this is the result. The Right have a toe-hold now. I hope for all our sakes that discussions are opened up, changes are made and the right don't get both feet on the ladder because that would be a disaster for all of us.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

For years now, if someone's started a discussion about immigration, a screaming Left has shut them down and branded them racist. We've seen Europe open its borders which has meant an inevitable influx of people into the richest countries from the poorest countries. Here, we've seen people arrive and claim benefits, tax credits, child benefit for kids who don't even live here, free medical care... meanwhile we have people living on the streets, children living in dire poverty, elderly people making the choice of freezing or starving and people denied life-giving healthcare because of the cost. If someone has tried to talk about it they've been called racist, they've been accused of being Daily Mail readers and they've been generally dismissed by a Left who seems committed to the doctrine that the louder you shout, the more insulting you get, the more right you are. No one listened... and this is the result. The Right have a toe-hold now. I hope for all our sakes that discussions are opened up, changes are made and the right don't get both feet on the ladder because that would be a disaster for all of us.

Great post.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Bang on right Livia. You see it everytime a debate starts about immigration the left start going on about how immigration has been good and how so and so is actually an immigrant


er stop. Noone has ever said stop ALL immigration - just get it controlled. Of course people who live in poorer countries will come here and work for buttons, but that does not translate into "us brits are too lazy, we wont do the jobs they do"

er no. Go to Poland and offer to work for well below their minimum wage and you will be snapped up. No one said "we better watch or the UK workforce are going to get priced out here" - all you heard was how the Poles etc are hard workers etc and willing to do low paid jobs. If Poland was the same economically as the UK they would not come - we have ended up in some areas subsidising the poor parts of Europe because the labour left were too scared to admit that too many immigrants are bad.

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Livia

For years now, if someone's started a discussion about immigration, a screaming Left has shut them down and branded them racist. We've seen Europe open its borders which has meant an inevitable influx of people into the richest countries from the poorest countries. Here, we've seen people arrive and claim benefits, tax credits, child benefit for kids who don't even live here, free medical care... meanwhile we have people living on the streets, children living in dire poverty, elderly people making the choice of freezing or starving and people denied life-giving healthcare because of the cost. If someone has tried to talk about it they've been called racist, they've been accused of being Daily Mail readers and they've been generally dismissed by a Left who seems committed to the doctrine that the louder you shout, the more insulting you get, the more right you are. No one listened... and this is the result. The Right have a toe-hold now. I hope for all our sakes that discussions are opened up, changes are made and the right don't get both feet on the ladder because that would be a disaster for all of us.

Excellent post.
Perhaps if people were given the same benefits, health care etc here as they would receive in their own country we would see a difference.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Excellent post.
Perhaps if people were given the same benefits, health care etc here as they would receive in their own country we would see a difference.

Unless they're in dire need, for instance, if they fled their country because of war or conflict of some kind and are genuine refugees, then they should have to pay into the system for a period of time before they take something out. It's been a free-for-all for ages, with a small but very vocal lobby telling us that it's right for people to take before putting in. Well, this election result is the result.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

Unless they're in dire need, for instance, if they fled their country because of war or conflict of some kind and are genuine refugees, then they should have to pay into the system for a period of time before they take something out. It's been a free-for-all for ages, with a small but very vocal lobby telling us that it's right for people to take before putting in. Well, this election result is the result.

I can and do agree totally with that.

[Cherie]

mmigrants have contributed Ł25bn to the country in tax – more than they received in state handouts, a study has found.

The report, by University College London, said those who had moved to the UK since 2000 had made a significant boost to public finances.

They were also less likely to claim benefits or live in social housing than British people.

According to the study, between 2000 and 2011, immigrants were 45% less likely to receive handouts than those born in the UK and 3% less likely to live in social housing.

Even when compared to British people the same age and gender, immigrants were still 21% less likely to receive benefits, according to report authors Professor Christian Dustmann and Dr Tommaso Frattini from UCL's Centre for Research and Analysis of Migration.

http://news.sky.com/story/1164087/im...ax-boost-to-uk



I have no problem with people paying into the system before they get anything back and I have no idea why successive governments have not closed that particular loophole.

What is the answer then?

Firstly, we're all descended from immigrants, so categorising them and us is not really that helpful in this situation. I don't think the current methods for dealing with this are perfect, but this thread is a collection of flawed ideals.

We've always had homeless people, and people starving, yet those on the right refuse to increase taxes to pay for things, and continue to strip away the social safety nets that are left.

I saw Cameron on TV the other day after the election, saying that what he learned, was that he needed to do welfare "reform". Now what do people think that actually means? It means taking more money from those that need it the most. I can't take any argument on immigration seriously while the government are doing their best to completely divide and conquer the country by increasing the gap between rich and poor.

So I don't think immigration is perfect, and there are lots of issues to deal with, but the government (this one and the last) are so scared of standing up to their corporate masters, they continue to demonise, attack, and take from the poorest people in the country.

Why not march them through the streets in stocks and let all the Anglo-Saxons throw tomatoes at them?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

What is the answer then?

Firstly, we're all descended from immigrants, so categorising them and us is not really that helpful in this situation. I don't think the current methods for dealing with this are perfect, but this thread is a collection of flawed ideals.

We've always had homeless people, and people starving, yet those on the right refuse to increase taxes to pay for things, and continue to strip away the social safety nets that are left.

I saw Cameron on TV the other day after the election, saying that what he learned, was that he needed to do welfare "reform". Now what do people think that actually means? It means taking more money from those that need it the most. I can't take any argument on immigration seriously while the government are doing their best to completely divide and conquer the country by increasing the gap between rich and poor.

So I don't think immigration is perfect, and there are lots of issues to deal with, but the government (this one and the last) are so scared of standing up to their corporate masters, they continue to demonise, attack, and take from the poorest people in the country.

Why not march them through the streets in stocks and let all the Anglo-Saxons throw tomatoes at them?

We're all descended from immigrants, yes. But that's nothing to do with this. Every country in Europe is descended from immigrants to an extent. The USA is descended from immigrants, you can't just walk in there and set up home. Same with Canada - part of the Commonwealth. You have to have something to offer them, a skill or a profession, and even then there's an application process and you have to wait to see if you've been successful. Opening our borders so that anyone at all from anywhere in Europe can come here has led to the majority of voters making their feelings known. Many people have come here to work, and in the process they've undercut indigenous workers. Some have come just to mooch, and if you don't believe that's true, then you're unconnected with reality. People want a better life for their families, and if this country hands stuff out for free, who wouldn't take it?

What this all boils down to is that people - not just in this country, but in other parts of Europe - feel the open borders situation is unworkable. Consequently, they've voted to the right. No one's saying immigration should stop completely. I guess we're lucky in this country they've turned to UKIP and not the BNP. The story's not the same in France... they've turned to the far right, and even in Germany they're further to the right than they have been since the 1940s. That worries me a lot. Part of my family came here after the last time Germany was on the far right. I don't want it to happen again and if we want to stop it, the free-for-all has to stop.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

What is the answer then?

Firstly, we're all descended from immigrants, so categorising them and us is not really that helpful in this situation. I don't think the current methods for dealing with this are perfect, but this thread is a collection of flawed ideals.

We've always had homeless people, and people starving, yet those on the right refuse to increase taxes to pay for things, and continue to strip away the social safety nets that are left.

I saw Cameron on TV the other day after the election, saying that what he learned, was that he needed to do welfare "reform". Now what do people think that actually means? It means taking more money from those that need it the most. I can't take any argument on immigration seriously while the government are doing their best to completely divide and conquer the country by increasing the gap between rich and poor.

So I don't think immigration is perfect, and there are lots of issues to deal with, but the government (this one and the last) are so scared of standing up to their corporate masters, they continue to demonise, attack, and take from the poorest people in the country.

Why not march them through the streets in stocks and let all the Anglo-Saxons throw tomatoes at them?

we have to use a term to describe them and immigrant is what we use. I have already posted about the "we are all immigrants line" I think most know the difference between a Pole, Estonian, Lithuanian in his/her twenties who arrived off the last boat and someones Granny who 20 generations ago came from Riga!

As for rich and poor that wont change, look at the numbers who do the lottery. people want to be rich and when they are are rich they tend to buy things for themselves and try to keep their money - we are a selfish bunch

[arista]

"Why not march them through the streets in stocks and let all the Anglo-Saxons throw tomatoes at them? "


No Burger King uses Tomatoes
how dare you say waste them

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by arista

"Why not march them through the streets in stocks and let all the Anglo-Saxons throw tomatoes at them? "


No Burger King uses Tomatoes
how dare you say waste them

Are they Kent tomatoes?

[arista]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Are they Kent tomatoes?

Yes from the Massive Kent Farm factory

Originally Posted by Livia

We're all descended from immigrants, yes. But that's nothing to do with this. Every country in Europe is descended from immigrants to an extent. The USA is descended from immigrants, you can't just walk in there and set up home. Same with Canada - part of the Commonwealth. You have to have something to offer them, a skill or a profession, and even then there's an application process and you have to wait to see if you've been successful. Opening our borders so that anyone at all from anywhere in Europe can come here has led to the majority of voters making their feelings known. Many people have come here to work, and in the process they've undercut indigenous workers. Some have come just to mooch, and if you don't believe that's true, then you're unconnected with reality. People want a better life for their families, and if this country hands stuff out for free, who wouldn't take it?

What this all boils down to is that people - not just in this country, but in other parts of Europe - feel the open borders situation is unworkable. Consequently, they've voted to the right. No one's saying immigration should stop completely. I guess we're lucky in this country they've turned to UKIP and not the BNP. The story's not the same in France... they've turned to the far right, and even in Germany they're further to the right than they have been since the 1940s. That worries me a lot. Part of my family came here after the last time Germany was on the far right. I don't want it to happen again and if we want to stop it, the free-for-all has to stop.

I agree that immigration is a problem, it's just not as base or as simplistic as the homeless and starving population argument as the issues raised in here. They are important singular issues, that the government and the (mostly) rw rags throw together to appeal to all of the middle-England Galahads. I thought the neo-nazi party was actually banned in Germany? Obviously you can't stop people joining the underground version, but I'm sure it's not a realistic option at the voting booth (although I remember reading that somewhere ages ago - so it may not actually be true, and typing this whilst eating bacon is the limit of my my multitasking ability).

I agree a serious discussion and idea session needs to happen to combat the people who just basically want to steal from us (I do get that), but that is a separate debate from what we do/don't provide for the generational families of the UK.

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

we have to use a term to describe them and immigrant is what we use. I have already posted about the "we are all immigrants line" I think most know the difference between a Pole, Estonian, Lithuanian in his/her twenties who arrived off the last boat and someones Granny who 20 generations ago came from Riga!

As for rich and poor that wont change, look at the numbers who do the lottery. people want to be rich and when they are are rich they tend to buy things for themselves and try to keep their money - we are a selfish bunch

That's the perfect example of my point - we can tackle foreigners because they're the "other", but we can't tackle people worth hundreds of millions, because......it's natural to want to keep the money you get. Isn't that exactly what people who come here want as well?

You'll never fix a society that builds from the top down. Ever. Ahh those pesky rich people with their selfish tendencies, but one person on benefits who goes on holiday, makes news on this morning, but the wealthiest take more than a cheapo package to Fuengarola out of our pockets, and that's understandable.

There are issues to fix with immigration, but demonising one group, and providing cover for another, shows the reason that the left struggles with the issue.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

I agree that immigration is a problem, it's just not as base or as simplistic as the homeless and starving population argument as the issues raised in here. They are important singular issues, that the government and the (mostly) rw rags throw together to appeal to all of the middle-England Galahads. I thought the neo-nazi party was actually banned in Germany? Obviously you can't stop people joining the underground version, but I'm sure it's not a realistic option at the voting booth (although I remember reading that somewhere ages ago - so it may not actually be true, and typing this whilst eating bacon is the limit of my my multitasking ability).

I agree a serious discussion. and idea session needs to happen to combat the people who just basically want to steal from us (I do get that), but that is a separate debate from what we do/don't provide for the generational families of the UK.



That's the perfect example of my point - we can tackle foreigners because they're the "other", but we can't tackle people worth hundreds of millions, because......it's natural to want to keep the money you get. Isn't that exactly what people who come here want as well?

You'll never fix a society that builds from the top down. Ever. Ahh those pesky rich people with their selfish tendencies, but one person on benefits who goes on holiday, makes news on this morning, but the wealthiest take more than a cheapo package to Fuengarola out of our pockets, and that's understandable.

There are issues to fix with immigration, but demonising one group, and providing cover for another, shows the reason that the left struggles with the issue.

Hard to argue with any of that

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by MTVN

The Front National's not stupid either, they're going to refuse to work with Golden Dawn and Jobbik in Hungary, they're trying just as hard to try and show they aren't racist as UKIP are

Given the difficulties of the last few years the anti-EU sentiment isn't surprising at all really either

I just can't get over how the media keeps pushing for these two parties though, especially in this country with UKIP where it takes for Labour MP's (who are always gonna sound bitter) to tell some of the public what their other policies are.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

What is the answer then?

Firstly, we're all descended from immigrants, so categorising them and us is not really that helpful in this situation. I don't think the current methods for dealing with this are perfect, but this thread is a collection of flawed ideals.

We've always had homeless people, and people starving, yet those on the right refuse to increase taxes to pay for things, and continue to strip away the social safety nets that are left.

I saw Cameron on TV the other day after the election, saying that what he learned, was that he needed to do welfare "reform". Now what do people think that actually means? It means taking more money from those that need it the most. I can't take any argument on immigration seriously while the government are doing their best to completely divide and conquer the country by increasing the gap between rich and poor.

So I don't think immigration is perfect, and there are lots of issues to deal with, but the government (this one and the last) are so scared of standing up to their corporate masters, they continue to demonise, attack, and take from the poorest people in the country.

Why not march them through the streets in stocks and let all the Anglo-Saxons throw tomatoes at them?

I think what doesn't help a lot of people with immigration though Jesus is that if you look at the statistics only London and Birmingham get the foreigners when really it should be spread out all over the country.

It's not really a multicultural society at the minute, it's more like mini countries in one with a lot of these no go zone areas.

Originally Posted by The Mockinator

I think what doesn't help a lot of people with immigration though Jesus is that if you look at the statistics only London and Birmingham get the foreigners when really it should be spread out all over the country.

It's not really a multicultural society at the minute, it's more like mini countries in one with a lot of these no go zone areas.

I live in Birmingham, and the areas I wouldn't go to have been that way since I moved here. I haven't seen European migration cause any new areas to become ghetto-ised.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

I agree that immigration is a problem, it's just not as base or as simplistic as the homeless and starving population argument as the issues raised in here. They are important singular issues, that the government and the (mostly) rw rags throw together to appeal to all of the middle-England Galahads. I thought the neo-nazi party was actually banned in Germany? Obviously you can't stop people joining the underground version, but I'm sure it's not a realistic option at the voting booth (although I remember reading that somewhere ages ago - so it may not actually be true, and typing this whilst eating bacon is the limit of my my multitasking ability).

I agree a serious discussion and idea session needs to happen to combat the people who just basically want to steal from us (I do get that), but that is a separate debate from what we do/don't provide for the generational families of the UK.

Yes, I agree. The "poor and starving" arguments are not mine. They are the issues that have been used to fight the election. They are emotive issues and they do exist, so it's easy to understand why those issues are used.

It's the perception of immigration that most people who voted UKIP have that has swung the vote. The perception that newcomers are getting something to which they're not morally entitled. And there are instances of that happening... and they are the instances that get the press. It's the same in other countries I imagine, which is why we've had the swing to the right.

The main parties have hedged and ducked and dived and generally avoided addressing people's concerns. Worse, if a discussion has been started, people have been labelled racists because they want to talk about it. It's a mare's nest. Hopefully, something positive will come out of this swing to UKIP. I'm pretty pessimistic about that though. But then a pessimist is just a well-informed optimist.