[Brother Leon]

"Because of that, whoever kills a soul - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. "

God bless the Officers who lost their lives the last few days and may these Extremists rot in hell for eternity. Barbarians.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Chewy

I can't help but be a bit scared that they'll target the UK next.

They may do
but we will kill them

[billy123]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What is being voiced is a need for perspective here in a world of muslims what fraction are terrorists in the west?
If we treat British muslims as aliens then that just feeds animosity and distrust.

Very well said Kizzy. Unfortunately some are blinded by anger and hatred and cant see that all they are doing is feeding the problem.
Venting anger at a quarter of the planets population 99.99%+ of whom are good people is shortsighted,small minded and counter productive beyond belief.
Some of the things i have read online in the last few days astound me and to see some of the bile spewed on here by people i thought were better than that (well some of them) is just frankly saddening.

Rise above it dont get blinded by hate and anger it is what feeds the tiny few that do this type of thing.
This is something that needs to be dealt nobody is saying otherwise. The actions of these warped freaks is vile but branding 1.6 billion as being the same is just ludicrous.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by bobnot

Very well said Kizzy. Unfortunately some are blinded by anger and hatred and cant see that all they are doing is feeding the problem.
Venting anger at a quarter of the planets population 99.99%+ of whom are good people is shortsighted,small minded and counter productive beyond belief.
Some of the things i have read online in the last few days astound me and to see some of the bile spewed on here by people i thought were better than that (well some of them) is just frankly saddening.

Rise above it dont get blinded by hate and anger it is what feeds the tiny few that do this type of thing.

..it's also exactly what they want...to cast the pebble of hate, mistrust, suspicion, fear and then watch the ripples spread and encompass....

[Sticks]

I disagree with the Mirror headline, they have died as martyrs. In certain circles they will be honoured as the team who avenged the Holy Prophet, just like the 7/7 bombers and the 9/11 attackers are "honoured" in similar circles

This is why it is inexpedient to draw cartoons and/or publish cartoons that insult Islam. These people do not care if they die, and MI5 has admitted they can not find them.

[Sticks]

Originally Posted by Chewy

I can't help but be a bit scared that they'll target the UK next.

They already have

7/7 bombers and the failed attempt two weeks later

Murder of Lee Rigby

[billy123]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..it's also exactly what they want...to cast the pebble of hate, mistrust, suspicion, fear and then watch the ripples spread and encompass....

Exactly Ammi and the disappointing thing for me is seeing so many people oblige them
I get the outrage and the anger. These people need to be hunted down and destroyed but these people shouldnt be confused with normal people no matter what they claim their reasons are for doing these things they dont represent anyone except their tiny group of lunatics.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..it's also exactly what they want...to cast the pebble of hate, mistrust, suspicion, fear and then watch the ripples spread and encompass....

It's not just what THEY want, it's exactly what the sinister and powerful interested parties with their grubby fingers around the neck of the entire planet want. Again: not Muslims.

Islamic Extremism is a tool used by people who are not religious at all to further their own unfathomable goals and to shape the world. These are mostly powerful, horrendously wealthy Western men. They use Islam because, frankly, only someone devoutly religious can be duped into throwing away their life and the lives of others by committing these atrocities, and Islam is the only truly devout religion left on any sort of scale.

They push the buttons and pull the strings. Many terrorist attacks are carried out be legitimate extremist groups - spurred on by, or copycat attacks of, certain key events.

Charlie Hebdo absolutely reeks of being one of these key events. As soon as the story broke it didn't feel quite right. The surgical execution of the plan, the conveniently placed evidence, the perfectly framed killshots, the blanket media coverage and the speed of apprehension. And of course, the expected public reaction that will only nurture above mentioned legitimate cells and copycat attacks. It smacks of false flag terrorism. I hate that this is so clear to me. It makes the fuming racism all over Facebook even more ****ing depressing.

[Toy Soldier]

They don't even have to be particularly careful about hiding it. People naturally won't believe it to be the case. They will desperately cling to the notion that it's just "immigrants and Muslims raaargh they hate our Western way of life because Allah!". It's the easy option.

People naturally WANT to believe that terrorist attacks and organisations are blotches of darkness and hatred on a world that is light and good. They can't handle the truth that terrorism is just a tiny glimpse, a shark fin peeking through the waves, a symptom of a darkness that runs deeper than they can bare to imagine.

Like I said - duck and cover. This **** is scripted. You just have to hope that you're not a Redshirt like Charlie.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Sticks

I disagree with the Mirror headline, they have died as martyrs. In certain circles they will be honoured as the team who avenged the Holy Prophet, just like the 7/7 bombers and the 9/11 attackers are "honoured" in similar circles

This is why it is inexpedient to draw cartoons and/or publish cartoons that insult Islam. These people do not care if they die, and MI5 has admitted they can not find them.

Of Course as you have a Narrow View of this
with respect

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Brother Leon

"Because of that, whoever kills a soul - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. "

God bless the Officers who lost their lives the last few days and may these Extremists rot in hell for eternity. Barbarians.

Thank you for your sound, rational and totally legitimate comments.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by arista

Of Course as you have a Narrow View of this
with respect

'Narrow' doesn't quite describe it Arista.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

'Narrow' doesn't quite describe it Arista.

Whilst I do completely (and utterly) reject with any notion that anyone should censor themselves or limit their freedom of expression out of fear, I do maintain that this is not the ONLY narrow or simplistic viewpoint being expressed in this thread.

[Sticks]

Originally Posted by arista

Of Course as you have a Narrow View of this
with respect

I have studied materials on this religion, and others. Certain groups have certain mindsets and you ignore and discount them at your peril

Today I was told that the reason the UK press never published the Danish cartoons was that they were ordered not to, so as not to provoke terrorist attacks.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not just what THEY want, it's exactly what the sinister and powerful interested parties with their grubby fingers around the neck of the entire planet want. Again: not Muslims.

Islamic Extremism is a tool used by people who are not religious at all to further their own unfathomable goals and to shape the world. These are mostly powerful, horrendously wealthy Western men.
.

Are you seriously saying here, that an 'Illuminati' type 'Grand Plan' by Non-Muslim Western billionaires is behind all this terrorism?

How would 'Islamlifying' the world benefit Western Capitalists? Who are these Western Non-Muslim 'Puppet Masters?

I agree - as I have said on here many, many times - that the Muslim religion is not really the cause of all this terrorist carnage and barbarism, but if religion does have anything at all to do with it, then it is irrefutably the cynical interpretation and exploitation of the text in the Quran by evil, insane monsters who have a propensity to kill, using it as an excuse to do so, and these barbaric demons are definitely not Western Non-Muslim 'Puppet Masters', but Middle Eastern Islamic Terrorists with no 'Strings Attached'. No one's 'making them do it', they are 'doing it' because they are evil, insane and want to do it.

"They use Islam because, frankly, only someone devoutly religious can be duped into throwing away their life and the lives of others by committing these atrocities, and Islam is the only truly devout religion left on any sort of scale."

I think the underlined statement is pure, unsubstantiated fallacy, and highly offensive to devout Christians, Jews, Hindus and people of other faiths, and it is, once again, dangerously 'elevating' Islam above other religions and attaching special status to it - which does seem to be a trait on here among certain people.

"They push the buttons and pull the strings. Many terrorist attacks are carried out be legitimate extremist groups - spurred on by, or copycat attacks of, certain key events.

Charlie Hebdo absolutely reeks of being one of these key events. As soon as the story broke it didn't feel quite right. The surgical execution of the plan, the conveniently placed evidence, the perfectly framed killshots, the blanket media coverage and the speed of apprehension. And of course, the expected public reaction that will only nurture above mentioned legitimate cells and copycat attacks. It smacks of false flag terrorism. I hate that this is so clear to me. It makes the fuming racism all over Facebook even more ****ing depressing "


Just who are these unidentified mythical creatures who; "push the buttons and pull the strings."?

The text I have underlined in your post seems to infer that this atrocity had nothing at all to do with any Islamic Fundamentalist taking offence at any cartoon, but was instead a well planned, well rehearsed conspiracy involving the French Security Services, the French Government, the French Police, the French TV companies, and God knows who else -- in an attempt to do just what?---

A)Discredit the Muslims?

B)Make themselves appear well equipped, well prepared, or elite in the
eyes of the rest of the world when it comes to dealing with terrorists?

I'd like to know how they recruited terrorist killers from the Yemen to play their part, and whether the 16 innocent human lives which were so cruelly cut short by these terrorist vermin, were regarded by your inferred 'conspirators' as acceptable costs in realising their 'false flag terrorism' - whatever that phrase means.

I'd also like to know just what you mean by; "conveniently placed evidence"?

I do understand you though when you write:

"It makes the fuming racism all over Facebook even more ****ing depressing"

Because I feel exactly as depressed reading some of the crap on here which borders on 'Blame-Shifting' and 'Terrorist apologetics'

[LeatherTrumpet]

If these 2 idiot boys had not been lied to about gods and heaven in the first place they would not have gone on to do that. Until we get to the root of this it will continue to happen

[Toy Soldier]

It's not apologetics Kirk, I am absolutely not denying that religious extremists are dangerous or that these atrocities are being carried out by religious extremists. I am an anti-theist. I can't stand organised religion. It's been used to twist and manipulate world events for THOUSANDS of years and enough is enough.

However, I am also well aware that the people who are creating these "monsters" (I will conceed and use that phrase) are NOT religious. They use religion because they know that they can warp it to their purpose. The masterminds don't blow themselves up, they send gullible kids to do it. Why? Why, if they believe truly in martyrdom and that they will go to paradise, do they convert and twist others to do it in their place? Answer: because they do not believe in paradise. They know it's a lie. But they know that others do believe it and that is useful to them.

Islam truly is the only religion left that would follow such a path. A thousand years ago, Christianity was used in EXACTLY the same way, to use the devout as weapons. As I said, the older religions have reached a stage where they are more philosophical and interpretative and mostly not dogmatic. Dogmatic churches are small and not useful.

I don't believe in the illuminati Kirk but I do know that you must look deeper than surface appearances to find the truth in this world.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Sticks

I have studied materials on this religion, and others. Certain groups have certain mindsets and you ignore and discount them at your peril

Today I was told that the reason the UK press never published the Danish cartoons was that they were ordered not to, so as not to provoke terrorist attacks.

Of course no one wants a Jihad walking through your office
with a AK47.
So I fully understand the Bloated BBC
and all the Newspapers

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Whilst I do completely (and utterly) reject with any notion that anyone should censor themselves or limit their freedom of expression out of fear, I do maintain that this is not the ONLY narrow or simplistic viewpoint being expressed in this thread.

I couldn't agree more, as your post below is but one example:

They don't even have to be particularly careful about hiding it. People naturally won't believe it to be the case. They will desperately cling to the notion that it's just "immigrants and Muslims raaargh they hate our Western way of life because Allah!". It's the easy option.


Although you fail to identify; "They", your statement above is so typical of a 'narrow or simplistic viewpoint being expressed in this thread" - one of utter denial and terrorist apologetics.

FACT:

A) The terrorists committing these atrocious acts of barbaric cold-blooded murder of innocent civilians, are MUSLIM by FAITH. Extremist they undoubtedly are, and not typical of ORDINARY MUSLIMS they may be, but MUSLIM they are, nonetheless.

B) Being ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS, these terrorist by SELF-PROCLAMATION, do indeed, irrefutably "HATE OUR (Western Infidel, Non-Muslim) WAY OF LIFE"

C) Unfettered IMMIGRATION - especially of Muslims - is causally linked,, beyond all doubt to the murderous acts of terrorism currently being perpetrated in various countries throughout the world. The atrocities in France, Australia, Bulgaria, The UK, Azerbaijan, Greece (do you need anymore?) were carried out by IMMIGRANTS living in those countries, or sons of IMMIGRANTS who were born in those countries.

When Osama Bin Laden was finally tracked down and killed, thousands of Muslims in the UK took to the streets in support of him, announcing him as an Islamic hero and condemned the role of US and West in killing him.

Wasn't mad mongrel hate preacher Anjem Choudary – who praised both 7/7 and the September 11 attacks among other atrocities - an IMMIGRANT to this country

In March of 2012, "Azerbaijani security services reported the arrest of 22 individuals, all Azerbaijani citizens (IMMIGRANTS) accused of working with Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps to carry out terrorist attacks against Western embassies and other groups with Western ties."

C) So, in light of the above FACTS and a thousand similar ones, and in accordance with the principles of 'Occam's Razor', our views that Islamic Terrorists are Muslim, that they hate our way of life, and that immigration is linked to terrorism, is not "the easy option" at all, but a totally rational conclusion based specifically upon the overwhelming and heavy preponderance of factual evidence.

For anyone to make a statement to the contrary that; "They will desperately cling to the notion that it's just "immigrants and Muslims raaargh they hate our Western way of life because Allah!". It's the easy option."
is not only a "narrow or simplistic viewpoint" it is a very juvenile one.

As for;

"People naturally WANT to believe that terrorist attacks and organisations are blotches of darkness and hatred on a world that is light and good. They can't handle the truth that terrorism is just a tiny glimpse, a shark fin peeking through the waves, a symptom of a darkness that runs deeper than they can bare to imagine. "

I haven't a clue what you're going on about.

Finally, I wish you'd explain:

"Like I said - duck and cover. This **** is scripted. You just have to hope that you're not a Redshirt like Charlie."

And tell us all just "who" has scripted just "what" ****? Is it Shane Black, or William Goldman? _________________

[Z]

A girl I work with said "I'm a terrible person for wanting to have children, what kind of selfish monster would bring a child into this world?" in reference to this attack. I don't want to live in this world anymore, quite fancy just going to a remote island and living with a small community and being done with it.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'I just wish that all those on here who are quick to criticise myself and others for our ‘small-minded, bigoted views’ in condemnation of these atrocities, were as quick and scathing of the bastards perpetrating them. Unfortunately, the ones making the loudest noises on here against us are the very ones whose silence on the terrorists and terrorism is the most notable.'

I don't think it's 'us and them' like this kirk, we all condemn them that goes without saying surely who would find their actions justified but other terrorists?...
What is being voiced is a need for perspective here in a world of muslims what fraction are terrorists in the west?
If we treat British muslims as aliens then that just feeds animosity and distrust.

There is no validity in stating; "That goes without saying" in the context of my post, because if there has been no condemnation of the terrorists and their slaughter by the very people who have criticised us who have condemned it, then "goes without saying" means nothing other than it hasn't been said.

As for; "a need for perspective here in a world of muslims what fraction are terrorists in the west?
If we treat British muslims as aliens then that just feeds animosity and distrust."

I agree Kizzy, but to make this comment in a response where you begin by quoting me, would suggest that you are directing these comments to me, and I have plenty of perspective.

I am sick of stating that I do not link Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists with 'ordinary' Muslims, nor do I favour punishing 'ordinary' Muslims anywhere in the world for the crimes of Islamic Terrorists, and I have stated as much in many long posts on various threads.

I must add though, that the above does not mean that immigration and terrorism are not strongly linked, because they are.

In addition, the fact that someone is a 'British' Muslim does not preclude him/her from also being a terrorist or terrorist supporter and sympathiser.

There is too much 'defensive' aggressive overreaction on this forum. When I stated that a large percentage of people claiming benefits in this country shouldn't be, I came under attack by people claiming that I was "attacking the weakest targets of society", "picking on the sick and poor" etc. etc.

The point is, they were all so blinded by their own ideaologies they just did not bother to try to understand what I was so clearly stating. I was not attacking any genuine ill or disabled person, I was attacking those claiming benefits who weren't ill or disabled or needy.

It is exactly the same with this subject. No matter how many times I state that I am not blaming ordinary Muslims, the bigoted, blinkered idiots on here ignore my statements so they can start to attack from a totally false premise.

It gets wearing.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Z

A girl I work with said "I'm a terrible person for wanting to have children, what kind of selfish monster would bring a child into this world?" in reference to this attack. I don't want to live in this world anymore, quite fancy just going to a remote island and living with a small community and being done with it.

Z - you have pinpointed just about the only regret I have ever entertained about having my beautiful kids. The more I see of this fecked up world, the more I feel that I was selfish in having them.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Z

A girl I work with said "I'm a terrible person for wanting to have children, what kind of selfish monster would bring a child into this world?" in reference to this attack. I don't want to live in this world anymore, quite fancy just going to a remote island and living with a small community and being done with it.

Bit dramatic we are the lucky generation (so far) of this century, we haven't sent anyone to war, we havent had food rationed, we haven't had to leave our homes to take shelter from bombs etc etc

[Ammi]

..also I think that we all have to experience the very good and the very bad/evil in life as well as everything in-between, it's just the way it is and always has been...but having children helps to balance out that goodness and people in general are still intrinsically good.../the evil are very much a minority...

[MTVN]

To be fair Kirk it can also be wearing how you equate any criticism of your position with a support for terrorism and a sympathy for murderers. I agree with kizzy it does go without saying that everyone here condemns these extremists, it is no less offensive to any of us than it is for you even if we don't all lay our raw emotion and anger bare on this forum. It's not fair to accuse people of being apologists for terrorism just because they have a different view on how to confront it.