[Niamh.]

“Paedophiles are told they are the seducers and rapists of children; they know their experiences are often loving and tender ones.

Seriously Jack? Their abuse of children is loving and tender?

[Jack_]

I think that implies that their experiences of being attracted to children are those of loving, tender and emotional connections rather than strictly sexual ones. At least that's how I interpreted that statement anyway. Indeed from interviews I've read with paedophiles a lot of them expressed how they feel a sense of protection towards those they are attracted to, amplified by the guilt of their situation, more than any sexual attraction.

[Marsh.]

But surely feelings outside of sexual attraction are a separate issue and not related to this "pedophilia is a sexual orientation" stuff?

We all feel protective and a certain "love" for people we are not sexually attracted or involved with, adults and children.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Jack_

“Paedophiles are told they are the seducers and rapists of children; they know their experiences are often loving and tender ones.
Also true, if there wasn't a social stigma attached to it (and at one point in history there wasn't) then there would be nothing to feel guilty about.

How are they able to judge what is a genuine loving tender relationship is coming from the perspective of a deviant?
They know it is not a social or a societal norm, they may have only the indoctrination of an abuser to have any childhood references to draw on which would explain why the abused go on to become the abuser.
However it cannot be denied that they know what they feel is wrong and attempting to suggest feelings are reciprocated by a minor is a way of deflecting the blame so they don't face the realisation that what they are doing or fantasise about doing has nothing to do with love and/or or emotion and everything to do with control.

[Z]

I see the reactionary police are out in force in this thread. Fair enough that most of them are parents themselves, it's hard to imagine a parent reacting in any other way, but I still think the point remains that we will never know how many people are out there with paedophilic tendencies until we as a society learn to be more accepting of the fact that it exists, it has always existed and will always exist.

Extreme points of view like to draw comparisons between homosexuality and paedophilia or lump them together because they're "perverse" and "not the norm" - perhaps controversially I'd argue that they're probably in the same sphere of understanding of the human psyche (why do some people feel attractions towards things that aren't going to help them reproduce?) - but the difference of course is that two homosexual people can consent to sexual intercourse; a child doesn't know any better. Even though kids are being sexualised from a shockingly early age, that doesn't mean they are sexual beings. I didn't disagree with the statement that paedophilia isn't normal - it should never be allowed to become normal - because normal is what we accept as normality. It is a natural phenomenon though, it's in some peoples' natures to be attracted to children. Perhaps it's shaped by an early experience or perhaps it's just how they were born; perhaps we'll never know or perhaps it'll be explained by science in the way that homosexuality is being researched.

The simple fact of the matter is that the way things are, we only know who's a paedophile if they 1) offend and 2) get caught. The bad minority does not represent the good majority; as is always the case in life - so that's why I believe that there are far more people with paedophilic tendencies out there than we'd like to believe.

[kirklancaster]

Despite the increasing apologist psychobabble' from certain psychiatrists and academics, Paedophiles themselves KNOW the difference between being drawn to children by affection and 'loving, tender and emotional connections' - which is NOT paedophilia but just natural instinctive feelings found in all normal men and women - and sexual attraction to children which IS paedophilia.

If they did not know this difference, then they would hardly go to the lengths which they do to HIDE their predilections and sordid activities.

All this B.S. is just yet another facet of the increasing trend over the past 30 years to marginalise or even BLAME the victim by MITIGATING or even EXCUSING the perpetrator.

Such a trend is wholly and emphatically supported - usually covertly - by people in lofty positions because among their number can be found the greatest clusters of deviants.

I will repeat; that those unfortunates who REALISE that they have this sickness and who fight their urges and seek help, do not deserve castigating and should be treated in strictest confidence.

In my opinion.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Z

I see the reactionary police are out in force in this thread. Fair enough that most of them are parents themselves, it's hard to imagine a parent reacting in any other way, but I still think the point remains that we will never know how many people are out there with paedophilic tendencies until we as a society learn to be more accepting of the fact that it exists, it has always existed and will always exist.

Extreme points of view like to draw comparisons between homosexuality and paedophilia or lump them together because they're "perverse" and "not the norm" - perhaps controversially I'd argue that they're probably in the same sphere of understanding of the human psyche (why do some people feel attractions towards things that aren't going to help them reproduce?) - but the difference of course is that two homosexual people can consent to sexual intercourse; a child doesn't know any better. Even though kids are being sexualised from a shockingly early age, that doesn't mean they are sexual beings. I didn't disagree with the statement that paedophilia isn't normal - it should never be allowed to become normal - because normal is what we accept as normality. It is a natural phenomenon though, it's in some peoples' natures to be attracted to children. Perhaps it's shaped by an early experience or perhaps it's just how they were born; perhaps we'll never know or perhaps it'll be explained by science in the way that homosexuality is being researched.

The simple fact of the matter is that the way things are, we only know who's a paedophile if they 1) offend and 2) get caught. The bad minority does not represent the good majority; as is always the case in life - so that's why I believe that there are far more people with paedophilic tendencies out there than we'd like to believe.

Not like you to be so unvaguely vague Z.

Where did anyone draw a comparison between peadophilia and homosexuality?...Not anyone I can see in this thread, my earlier point referenced consensual sex, which homosexual sex is so not in any way shape or form comparable.

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Samuel.

There's been plenty of research done previously that supports at least the idea that it's a lot more common than percieved to be.

Ultimately even the concept of children is a social contruction and they've only been seen as vulnerable and innocent in comparison to adults in the last 200-300 years, sex between adult and child wasn't even studied or differentiated until much later. Naturally-occuring attraction to children unfortunately doesn't stop existing simply because our societal values change, they'll continue to be present in some.

Of course, none of this excuses those who rape children. I'd imagine, however, those with attraction to children are no more likely to act upon it than anybody else would act upon raping an adult. There's nothing to suggest otherwise.

Your last comment is simply pathetic.

Samuel I couldn't care less if you think any of my comments are pathetic, I personally find some of the views in this thread to be sickening not to mention completely offensive to victims of these people.

'Oh lets all respect the brave paedophiles that don't act upon their feelings, those poor people eh we need to understand them better.. I personally think that's a crock of ****.

As someone that has witnessed the complete devastation that this can cause in a childs life it actually baffles me how anyone can seriously attempt to justify the urges and actions of paedophiles by claiming that it's normal, it's not normal and there is no place for it in our society so theres no need for us to be accepting or understanding of it in any way IMO.

And I am genuinely interested to know how much people that sympathise with paedophiles that have resisted their urges would be happy enough to live next door to them with their young kids?

[Jack_]

If paedophilia isn't a sexual orientation, then what is it? Are people seriously suggesting some choose to live a life of guilt, repression and self-hatred?

[Livia]

I am 100% with Josy on this.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Josy

Samuel I couldn't care less if you think any of my comments are pathetic, I personally find some of the views in this thread to be sickening not to mention completely offensive to victims of these people.

'Oh lets all respect the brave paedophiles that don't act upon their feelings, those poor people eh we need to understand them better.. I personally think that's a crock of ****.

As someone that has witnessed the complete devastation that this can cause in a childs life it actually baffles me how anyone can seriously attempt to justify the urges and actions of paedophiles by claiming that it's normal, it's not normal and there is no place for it in our society so theres no need for us to be accepting or understanding of it in any way IMO.

And I am genuinely interested to know how much people that sympathise with paedophiles that have resisted their urges would be happy enough to live next door to them with their young kids?

Fantastic post Josy.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Josy

Samuel I couldn't care less if you think any of my comments are pathetic, I personally find some of the views in this thread to be sickening not to mention completely offensive to victims of these people.

'Oh lets all respect the brave paedophiles that don't act upon their feelings, those poor people eh we need to understand them better.. I personally think that's a crock of ****.

As someone that has witnessed the complete devastation that this can cause in a childs life it actually baffles me how anyone can seriously attempt to justify the urges and actions of paedophiles by claiming that it's normal, it's not normal and there is no place for it in our society so theres no need for us to be accepting or understanding of it in any way IMO.

And I am genuinely interested to know how much people that sympathise with paedophiles that have resisted their urges would be happy enough to live next door to them with their young kids?

No one who is sane, but perhaps I should have expounded the last part of my post:

"I will repeat; that those unfortunates who REALISE that they have this sickness and who fight their urges and seek help, do not deserve castigating and should be treated in strictest confidence."

by adding:

"In secure institutions."

I also feel that the local Police SHOULD be alerted but with a strict order that the person being voluntarily treated has committed no crime, and because of this perhaps there should be 2 separate registers?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

If paedophilia isn't a sexual orientation, then what is it? Are people seriously suggesting some choose to live a life of guilt, repression and self-hatred?

Just because they didn't choose it doesn't make it natural or normal nor does it suddenly become a sexual orientation.

It belongs under mental illness IMO. The same as any sicko who has impulses for other vile acts in this world.

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Samuel.

Being solely attracted to children makes someone a monster? Absolutely not.

Acting upon those attractions is the vital difference and the two shouldn't be lumped together in any circumstance.

The attitude people have towards paedophiles is frightening, emotive and in a lot of cases harmful. If someone has paedophilic thoughts, why on earth would they reach out for help. It'd result in being shamed, villified and their life potentially ruined because of the completely unhelpful attitude of mob-like anger this country shows at every opportunity.

I really hope ten, twenty years down the line we can start approaching the topic sensibly without throwing around the word "monster".

i think peoples attitudes are so strong because we all know how strong and overwhelming sexual urges are for all healthy people. sexuality is a corner stone of every human beings life.

imagine telling a man he can't have sex with a woman (or a man if he's gay) how long can he actually resist before he acts on those impulses? it's like conservatives that advocate for abstinance only sex education. the fact is, men and women always end up succumbing to their sexual desires, no matter how religious they are.

so if a pedophile feels that way towards children, how long can we really expect him to deny his sexuality? I personally don't believe you can change someone's sexuality. no matter how much therapy or medication you give them.

That is why everyone is so worried about pedophiles. all the studies have shown that almost ALL pedophiles are repeat offenders. So i don't think the public is overreacting at all. they really are an extreme danger to children.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Not like you to be so unvaguely vague Z.

Where did anyone draw a comparison between peadophilia and homosexuality?...Not anyone I can see in this thread, my earlier point referenced consensual sex, which homosexual sex is so not in any way shape or form comparable.

I'm not being vague. There are plenty of people with extreme points of view (none of those points of view have been expressed in this thread, I didn't say that) who lump all "deviants from the norm" together. I wasn't referring to you, I was speaking generally.

Originally Posted by Josy

Samuel I couldn't care less if you think any of my comments are pathetic, I personally find some of the views in this thread to be sickening not to mention completely offensive to victims of these people.

'Oh lets all respect the brave paedophiles that don't act upon their feelings, those poor people eh we need to understand them better.. I personally think that's a crock of ****.

As someone that has witnessed the complete devastation that this can cause in a childs life it actually baffles me how anyone can seriously attempt to justify the urges and actions of paedophiles by claiming that it's normal, it's not normal and there is no place for it in our society so theres no need for us to be accepting or understanding of it in any way IMO.

And I am genuinely interested to know how much people that sympathise with paedophiles that have resisted their urges would be happy enough to live next door to them with their young kids?

I don't sympathise with paedophiles and I wouldn't be happy having one next door; but I'd rather live in a world where someone with paedophilic feelings feels safe enough to seek help/counselling for their feelings and learn to control them rather than live a life of manic depression until they either 1) commit a crime that ruins many lives and/or 2) commits suicide as a result of offending or not being able to live with themselves. Let me flip that question round on you; would you be happy enough knowing that your total lack of tolerance for someone's mental issues caused them to kill themselves because they couldn't seek help for fear of being ostracised by the community?

I want to be really clear here: I do not support paedophiles in any way, I doubt anyone here does. It's not a question of support, it's a question of acceptance of the fact they exist and there are probably a great many more paedophiles who live in torment, never acting on it, than those we know about because they have.

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Just because they didn't choose it doesn't make it natural or normal nor does it suddenly become a sexual orientation.

It belongs under mental illness IMO. The same as any sicko who has impulses for other vile acts in this world.

If you don't choose something so intrinsic about yourself, it is natural. There is a distinction to be made between "normal" and "natural" that isn't being made clear enough and I think the word "natural" on its own implies something very offensive that obviously a great deal of people are picking up on in this thread. Naturally occuring would be the term. I didn't choose to be gay and luckily enough I'm living in a world that's starting to change and allow me to be open about that part of myself if I want to be. Paedophilia is a disorder perhaps, or perhaps future generations will come to see it as an orientation which needs to be counselled and brought under control, and perhaps one day they'll figure out why people feel that way and perhaps even cure them one day, in the way that people try to "cure" homosexuality unsuccessfully in this day and age. I don't think paedophilia itself is the mental illness, I think the stigma surrounding paedophilia is what causes mental illness because it makes people who experience those feelings feel a great deal of guilt, shame and may lead to depression and leave them unable to function in society.

I think this is an interesting debate though. It's an extremely emotive one and I think it can only really be discussed hypothetically by people who don't have kids and haven't seen the devastating impacts of child abuse first hand, because anyone who has will of course (rightfully) not have any tolerance for hearing anything to the contrary. I don't necessarily disagree with anyone in this thread, I just think this topic is one that ought to be discussed more widely and it would benefit society as a whole if we could better understand what causes paedophilia and how to help potential offenders not offend.

[Marsh.]

Yeah, but because something is "natural" doesn't mean it should be accepted.

Like I said, any mental illness or something else which affects someone's behaviour/impulses from sexual to violent etc can be called "naturally occurring" in certain cases.

This pedophile stuff should be treated just like that.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Yeah, but because something is "natural" doesn't mean it should be accepted.

Like I said, any mental illness or something else which affects someone's behaviour/impulses from sexual to violent etc can be called "naturally occurring" in certain cases.

This pedophile stuff should be treated just like that.

Yeah, we're not disagreeing here - the point that I'm trying to make is that it happens. It's always happened. Even today, it happens in cultures where it's actually broadly accepted in some cases - child brides being common in cultures where women are bartered by families in exchange for livestock and such like. Is that paedophilia if it's not considered as such by certain cultures? It's still a child having sex with an adult. That's a bit of a tangent but it's something else to think about. Paedophilia exists and sometimes paedophiles act on their impulses and children have their lives ruined or worse, are murdered by people trying to cover up what they did. I feel like if paedophilia wasn't quite so violently stigmatised by society as a whole, paedophiles would seek help instead of trying to fight an internal battle alone and ending up losing. Like I said, I consider it to be somewhat like people fighting substance addictions - they know that they're susceptible so they remove themselves from situations where the temptation is strong. An alcoholic doesn't go to a bar; a paedophile shouldn't go to a playground. The difference is that there is help for alcoholics, there isn't much help for paedophiles. And before anyone jumps on me, I'm not bloody lumping paedophilia and alcoholism together

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Z

Yeah, we're not disagreeing here - the point that I'm trying to make is that it happens. It's always happened. Even today, it happens in cultures where it's actually broadly accepted in some cases - child brides being common in cultures where women are bartered by families in exchange for livestock and such like. Is that paedophilia if it's not considered as such by certain cultures? It's still a child having sex with an adult. That's a bit of a tangent but it's something else to think about. Paedophilia exists and sometimes paedophiles act on their impulses and children have their lives ruined or worse, are murdered by people trying to cover up what they did. I feel like if paedophilia wasn't quite so violently stigmatised by society as a whole, paedophiles would seek help instead of trying to fight an internal battle alone and ending up losing. Like I said, I consider it to be somewhat like people fighting substance addictions - they know that they're susceptible so they remove themselves from situations where the temptation is strong. An alcoholic doesn't go to a bar; a paedophile shouldn't go to a playground. The difference is that there is help for alcoholics, there isn't much help for paedophiles. And before anyone jumps on me, I'm not bloody lumping paedophilia and alcoholism together

Oh yes, I see where you're coming from now. I agree.

Pedophiles who commit crimes should be treated like any other criminal but ones that just want help like someone else struggling with any mental illness or addiction should be helped just as much.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Oh yes, I see where you're coming from now. I agree.

Pedophiles who commit crimes should be treated like any other criminal but ones that just want help like someone else struggling with any mental illness or addiction should be helped just as much.

Yeah exactly, I mean I don't know how anyone can disagree with that - wouldn't you rather know that someone was seeking counselling to help manage their temptations to offend than the current situation where we only know that someone is a paedophile if they commit an offence?! And the only way that paedophiles will start seeking help is if they know that they're not going to be attacked by a lynch mob for admitting it. That's why I think it's brave that there are people who are willing to discuss this so publicly. It's a conversation that needs to be had and the people with the best insights are the people who feel that way; it's near enough impossible to get anyone to open up about it so that's why I think these people are brave for doing so. Not many would or have.

Plus, anyone who actually goes ahead and commits the crime is either extremely arrogant or extremely deranged, often both, as shown by the extremes of high-society-cover-ups exposed by Yewtree and infamous criminal cases like Sarah Payne, April Jones etc... - these people probably wouldn't seek out help even if it were there; they committed these crimes because their sense of right and wrong has been skewed by positions of power or just simply having no respect for the rule of law.

[empire]

its funny that there are large amounts of women who are sexually abusing children, I hear its in north america, australia,new zealand,even hear in the uk, the biggest taboo their was that the age, of the boys and girls that where being groomed, in the cases, some where as young as six years old,then to eight to 10 and 12 right up to 14,what is disturbing their is that these women tell them that they love them, which they are lying, they manipulate and control them, police in every case found in their cars,new toys to gagets and new trainers for boys,many psychologists have tested alot of females who where caught, they showed pictures of men then to pictures of boys, in the end they did not get sexually aroused with the adult pictures, but the boys pictures, they where aroused by it, when this was put into the court cases, still they got a very soft jail terms,here in the uk, the media blacks out women who do the same thing, like 99 percent of the time, because it will cause paranoia, with parents not trusting a friend to baby sit their chlidren, the male black out in are media is about 40 percent, so there is alot more there,the police know to are mps, that both genders do it, same time we are trying to lower the age of consent, why else would they risk doing that, the most good looking man to the most beautiful women can be a nonce, some people can't face it when it is a pretty type woman, that was doing it, people would say that she could of had any man she wanted, but it was a little kid,