[_Tom_]

If you haven't yet seen Brexit: The Movie it's an absolute must watch for every voter - a proper eye opener! Full of strong and interesting economic facts and doesn't have to mention borders once.

Youtube video

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

It has become a disgraceful shambles in my view Tom,I didn't really expect it to be a good exercise but how undecided voters are left feeling at the nonsense rather than real 'true' information they are getting from both sides should be and is appalling.

The media too,who actually had a good opportunity to be the outlet to really inform and help the voters on this.
Sadly are totally pre-occupied with a likely leadership challenge in the Conservative party,then also as to why Jeremy Corbyn is not here ,there and everywhere and finally treating the whole thing as another almost general election campaign rather than a referendum.

I love politics, I would love to be a MP someday but I am left really squirming and ashamed at the absolute mess that has been made of this whole exercise.

So much so now, when I come across someone who says what you have just said as to avoiding it and people saying they are sick to death of the whole thing,my response now is ''I Don't blame you at all as to that''.

It will likely leave a great many not bothering to vote at all and for the way peoples concerns have been ignored on this,all Parties and near all MPs involved too,should hang their heads in shame after this ridiculous spectacle is finally over, whatever the result.

what I found interesting was David C basically saying that the words of the opposing Tories could not be trusted. If that's the case, what does that say for the future of the party. Labour will just quote that once Dave goes It truly is a shambles and does nothing to improve our trust in any of them

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

what I found interesting was David C basically saying that the words of the opposing Tories could not be trusted. If that's the case, what does that say for the future of the party. Labour will just quote that once Dave goes It truly is a shambles and does nothing to improve our trust in any of them

The Conservative party has chosen the wrong path, one leading to its demise. Now marginalized beyond salvation after countless public in-fights, each more appalling than the next in desperation to maintain power.

[DemolitionRed]

In the end the Conservative party has irreversibly debased itself and as a consequence our government looks like nothing more than a shambles.

Will they recover from this?

I hope not.

[joeysteele]

That is a strong film only looking at the out positives,not examining the negatives but a very interesting film none-the-less.

I am pro the EU, have spoken to loads of people, who voted no in 1975 who will now be voting remain on the 23rd June,my own parents are 2 of them.
Likewise, I have spoken to loads of people too who voted yes in 1975 and who will now be voting leave this time.

I could have even been persuaded myself to vote leave if instead of the nonsense we have had from both sides, more substantiated facts had emerged.
Such as when the leave side says we can have a trade deal with the EU,although now they are advocating leaving the single market which was still an option to stay in for them before.

Had they any EU member Nation who was saying certainly,if the UK leaves they will get the best possible deal in the circumstances and quickly too.
Also if any EU member Nation had even said it would be possible to remain part of the single market and not have the condition of the free movement of EU citizens,then I would have paid more heed to them.
None of that happened and I really do not believe whoever in the end goes for the negotiation of any trading deal,that in the end, they will not want to remain part of the single market and I still believe even if out the EU,the UK will have to accept that free movement.
Already 2 Nations Germany and Spain have indicated just that.

Plus again, had the leave campaign been able to get any Nations like Australia,China,India and the USA,to say that they would certainly look to give the Uk good trading deals and certainly up any trading we do with them now,if the Uk left the EU.
Then again I would further have a great deal more interest in the leave argument.

However again as to that,not one Nation anywhere in the rest of the World has said such.
In fact all those Nations are saying we should remain in the EU.
I do think we need to look at immigration but I do not believe leaving will be the success as to that,which the leave side is claiming.

They are jumping the gun in my view, and already we have MPs who really believe leaving the single market would be a disaster for the UK, and they number over 400 in Westminster saying they could likely reject any deal that takes us out of the single market.
Now the leave side said today, that would be going against the wishes of the voters.
Not so, we are only being asked in this referendum,to say if we should remain a full member of the EU or leave,nothing else is on the ballot paper.

Any deal will have to be negotiated with the EU Nations, they may come back in time with 2 choices of deals, one still in the single market, one out of it.
Any single deal could be open to amendments or a whole new proposal as to further negotiations.
All of that however will only be decided by MPs of all Parties in Parliament, the deal, or choice of deals,will not be put to voters in a referendum again.

So I can see after all this, a deal where we remain in the single market with the condition of free movement of EU citizens.
A few other likely administrative costs and then of course no other funding sent to the EU from the UK.
However we would retain the vast benefits of being in the single market without being a full member but still unable to not accept the free movement of EU citizens.

Those are the reasons in part why I see this as a risk not worthy of taking, that's only my view, I respect the views and commitment of those advocating leave.

Is the upheaval worth it, in my view no.
Will even the leave side end up disappointed with the final deal negotiated and accepted by MPs in Parliament in the end, I think yes they will, as the cornerstone of their whole battle, to stop the free movement of EU citizens, I personally do not think, in or out,will change.

Just my view but I cannot see the present govt and parliament across the board, accepting any deal that will see the UK out of the single market,(and I firmly want to see the UK in the single market myself),and I cannot see the EU giving the UK any deal that keeps us in the single market without the UK accepting the free movement of EU citizens.

I have not heard anything to say that will not be the case and once out, all we will gain is that Ł165million weekly,which I fear could be easily whittled away very quickly on probably next to nothing things by whichever govt may be in power,

I enjoyed the film above, also however I would also equally enjoy a film on the benefits of the European Union too.

I am not a separatist,I prefer people and Nations to come together when the chance is there to do so.
So for me the status quo from my perspective looks far more appealing to me,than almost taking a leap into the dark.

What happens in the end happens but good luck and my sympathy to those many undecided voters who are just being more and more confused.

Those who wish to leave or remain,please however use your vote.
On this massive issue for the whole UK,which is not only for us as individuals but for the UKs future generations too.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

In the end the Conservative party has irreversibly debased itself and as a consequence our government looks like nothing more than a shambles.

Will they recover from this?

I hope not.

The Conservative Party is a formidable machine and loves power so will find a way to come together.
However that could take time and a messy overthrow of Cameron after a leave result, could see divisions remain for some time.

I am oddly not sure the Party I support, Labour, either has the will or people in the top team to capitalise on that and that is a worry.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

The Conservative Party is a formidable machine and loves power so will find a way to come together.
However that could take time and a messy overthrow of Cameron after a leave result, could see divisions remain for some time.

I am oddly not sure my Party Labour either has the will or people in the top team to capitalise on that and that is a worry.

None of us are sure of anything right now Joey.

I’m an out voter but that doesn’t make me an EU hater. The EU have been a powerful force for many good things and without it, this country is going to be put through some profound changes. I believe Cameron’s ‘chicken Licken’ act holds some weight; none of us know the economic facts and consequences of leaving the EU; we’d have to be small minded to believe its not going to be tough and its not going to affect every last one of us.

TTIP is about to hit the EU like a juggernaut. Americas corrupt ideologies are going to become a part of European social justice and whilst the far right, namely Boris, will try and drive Britain back towards that extreme, the majority of Brits are democrats who won’t allow Britain to be compromised by these corporate sharks.

I have left my sentiments about the EU throughout this thread. I sat on the fence for ages and watched both camps squabble to the point of tedium. Whichever way we vote, it’s a gamble but one things for sure, the EU’s neoliberal capitalist ideologies have allowed for an undisputed rising inequality, an underperforming economy and the demolition of our social structure and unless some radical movement takes place, this ghastly mess is only going to get worse

[joeysteele]

[QUOTE=DemolitionRed;8690486]None of us are sure of anything right now Joey.

I’m an out voter but that doesn’t make me an EU hater. The EU have been a powerful force for many good things and without it, this country is going to be put through some profound changes. I believe Cameron’s ‘chicken Licken’ act holds some weight; none of us know the economic facts and consequences of leaving the EU; we’d have to be small minded to believe its not going to be tough and its not going to affect every last one of us.

TTIP is about to hit the EU like a juggernaut. Americas corrupt ideologies are going to become a part of European social justice and whilst the far right, namely Boris, will try and drive Britain back towards that extreme, the majority of Brits are democrats who won’t allow Britain to be compromised by these corporate sharks.

I have left my sentiments about the EU throughout this thread. I sat on the fence for ages and watched both camps squabble to the point of tedium. Whichever way we vote, it’s a gamble but one things for sure, the EU’s neoliberal capitalist ideologies have allowed for an undisputed rising inequality, an underperforming economy and the demolition of our social structure and unless some radical movement takes place, this ghastly mess is only going to get worse[/QUOTE]




Hi DemRed.
Good points and I respect your view although opposite to you as to my view of the ongoing EU,I believe reform is possible and I believe David Cameron may have started that process off to be fair to him.
Not rapid reform but I do think change is on the way for the better within the EU.

TTIP is not an issue for me as in its present incomplete form it is dead in the water as to the EU, as most EU Nations now would never ratify it and they all have to, all 27 Nations in the EU and 28 if we stay.

However looking at TTIP, if the EU will drag their heels and hold up a deal with the USA,now likely to ne rejected by them too,then what chance have we after leaving to be able to demand the best for us from them.

Good points but I do really feel the scenario at the end of your post are things that will likely happen equally if we leave the EU too rather than remain in it.

[bitontheslide]

I won't be watching any debates. I've made my mind up, I will be voting to remain, and hoping that Boris and co have ruined their future political ambitions. In this particular issue, we know Cameron has conviction. He has nothing to lose as he is standing down anyway.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Hi DemRed.
Good points and I respect your view although opposite to you as to my view of the ongoing EU,I believe reform is possible and I believe David Cameron may have started that process off to be fair to him.
Not rapid reform but I do think change is on the way for the better within the EU.

TTIP is not an issue for me as in its present incomplete form it is dead in the water as to the EU, as most EU Nations now would never ratify it and they all have to, all 27 Nations in the EU and 28 if we stay.

However looking at TTIP, if the EU will drag their heels and hold up a deal with the USA,now likely to ne rejected by them too,then what chance have we after leaving to be able to demand the best for us from them.

Good points but I do really feel the scenario at the end of your post are things that will likely happen equally if we leave the EU too rather than remain in it.

TTIP is one of many deals that’s inspired the neoliberal movement, it has smaller sisters that are equally frightening. Have you heard of ‘CETA’? well that’s already been signed by the British Government and because its been signed for, us, Joe public, are allowed to browse through its 1,500 pages and believe me, if you care to look, you’re not going to be happy with what you see.

The word ‘trade’ is such a misleading word but one that had us all fooled when they signed the CETA deal. Its much more than being able to export and import our products, its removes government rights to control the financial market and allows destructive fossil fuels to be used across Europe but the most troubling agreement is that CETA can legally stop governments buying back public services, which means Corbyn can’t legally buy back public transport.

Cameron is a staunch supporter of TTIP and all its seriously dangerous offshoots; in fact he’s the man at the forefront of the EU pushing all countries to sign these deals. He’s not a man of the people, he’s an aggressive business man who allows great wealth to flow between the few at the expense of his citizens.

Whilst I fully respect your opinion Joey and agree with much of what you say,
I’m not prepared to sit back and accept it may never happen because it is happening and it has to stop.


The more I learn about these so called ‘trade deals’ the more it feels like we are living in the Matrix.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I won't be watching any debates. I've made my mind up, I will be voting to remain, and hoping that Boris and co have ruined their future political ambitions. In this particular issue, we know Cameron has conviction. He has nothing to lose as he is standing down anyway.

lol yes thats the spirit close ears, learn nothing nw, such an open mind , not

[the truth]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

TTIP is one of many deals that’s inspired the neoliberal movement, it has smaller sisters that are equally frightening. Have you heard of ‘CETA’? well that’s already been signed by the British Government and because its been signed for, us, Joe public, are allowed to browse through its 1,500 pages and believe me, if you care to look, you’re not going to be happy with what you see.

The word ‘trade’ is such a misleading word but one that had us all fooled when they signed the CETA deal. Its much more than being able to export and import our products, its removes government rights to control the financial market and allows destructive fossil fuels to be used across Europe but the most troubling agreement is that CETA can legally stop governments buying back public services, which means Corbyn can’t legally buy back public transport.

Cameron is a staunch supporter of TTIP and all its seriously dangerous offshoots; in fact he’s the man at the forefront of the EU pushing all countries to sign these deals. He’s not a man of the people, he’s an aggressive business man who allows great wealth to flow between the few at the expense of his citizens.

Whilst I fully respect your opinion Joey and agree with much of what you say,
I’m not prepared to sit back and accept it may never happen because it is happening and it has to stop.


The more I learn about these so called ‘trade deals’ the more it feels like we are living in the Matrix.

totally agree. cameron is evil like tony blair a total fraud
ttip is the biggest threat to the planet like all these corrupt phone corporate takeovers...the eu commission is equally corrupt and is allowing corporations to march through europe. only last week the eu commission chairman announced if any government tried to limit ubers powers they would be sued.


uber absolutely stinks, they are not regulated like all taxi firms, neither are their drivers , they do not pay local authorities like all other taxi firms, they do not have the same meters as all other taxi firms, they are not insured like all other taxi firms, their drivers do not have the same criminal checks, they do not have the knowledge that all other taxi firms must have by law, they do not even tell customers how much they charge them until 3 days later....theyre funded by goldman sachs, google ventures, apple and other tax dodgers and of course the saudi arabians....and the eu commission has already clearly been bought off ...allegedly

http://www.independent.ie/business/t...-34772543.html

The ride-hailing company's latest infusion of cash - a record $3.5bn from Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund last week

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by the truth

lol yes thats the spirit close ears, learn nothing nw, such an open mind , not

Coming from the guy whose rhetoric on the EU shows he is so open to hearing new information .... not

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

TTIP is one of many deals that’s inspired the neoliberal movement, it has smaller sisters that are equally frightening. Have you heard of ‘CETA’? well that’s already been signed by the British Government and because its been signed for, us, Joe public, are allowed to browse through its 1,500 pages and believe me, if you care to look, you’re not going to be happy with what you see.

The word ‘trade’ is such a misleading word but one that had us all fooled when they signed the CETA deal. Its much more than being able to export and import our products, its removes government rights to control the financial market and allows destructive fossil fuels to be used across Europe but the most troubling agreement is that CETA can legally stop governments buying back public services, which means Corbyn can’t legally buy back public transport.

Cameron is a staunch supporter of TTIP and all its seriously dangerous offshoots; in fact he’s the man at the forefront of the EU pushing all countries to sign these deals. He’s not a man of the people, he’s an aggressive business man who allows great wealth to flow between the few at the expense of his citizens.

Whilst I fully respect your opinion Joey and agree with much of what you say,
I’m not prepared to sit back and accept it may never happen because it is happening and it has to stop.


The more I learn about these so called ‘trade deals’ the more it feels like we are living in the Matrix.

I could actually more likely believe that some sort of a TTIP deal would be more likely to happen between a UK out of the EU in negotiation for more trade with the USA.

I am against TTIP, and no way can I see any remote prospect of it being agreed at all in its present ridiculous form, with 'all' the EU Nations.
For me, that is another good reason to remain.

However we will have to negotiate better and more trade with the likes of the USA if we leave, so equally who is to say that sort of deal with similar conditions, would not be expected by the USA from the UK for any better trading with the USA, out of the EU.

That's another chance and risk I will not be prepared to take.
One thing is definite for sure, the UK certainly will need the USA for one, once out of the EU and even moreso if out of the single market too.

The UK alone and open to all sorts of 'gentle persuasion' from the USA negotiators as to that too then.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I won't be watching any debates. I've made my mind up, I will be voting to remain, and hoping that Boris and co have ruined their future political ambitions. In this particular issue, we know Cameron has conviction. He has nothing to lose as he is standing down anyway.

This is one of the main reasons I do trust David Cameron on this issue but I do also think he is not getting the full credit he should, for what he has exempted the UK from in his negotiations with the EU earlier this year.

[DemolitionRed]

Its not just the TTIP though is it Joey. As I pointed out, there are little sister deals going on behind cloaked windows and those deals are pure lunacy for the normal guy in the street.

Obama's hasty visit to the UK was for good reason. This deal is his legacy and that’s why him and Cameron have been trying to push it forward at great speed. His threats of how America will treat us if we leave Europe said it all. The TTIP will fall apart without Britain’s signature. Cameron is America’s biggest ally when it comes to these ludicrous trade agreements.

The ‘In’ campaign are now telling us that the TTIP may still go ahead in Britain if we come out or that a similar deal would/could be made. Its fear mongering nonsense. The TTIP can not happen in Britain if we come out and any new leader with an ounce of common sense and morality isn’t going to put a stand alone Britain through something that could bankrupt it in a year.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Its not just the TTIP though is it Joey. As I pointed out, there are little sister deals going on behind cloaked windows and those deals are pure lunacy for the normal guy in the street.

Obama's hasty visit to the UK was for good reason. This deal is his legacy and that’s why him and Cameron have been trying to push it forward at great speed. His threats of how America will treat us if we leave Europe said it all. The TTIP will fall apart without Britain’s signature. Cameron is America’s biggest ally when it comes to these ludicrous trade agreements.

The ‘In’ campaign are now telling us that the TTIP may still go ahead in Britain if we come out or that a similar deal would/could be made. Its fear mongering nonsense. The TTIP can not happen in Britain if we come out and any new leader with an ounce of common sense and morality isn’t going to put a stand alone Britain through something that could bankrupt it in a year.

Exactly.Atleast a UK government is accountable and can be removed by the British people.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Exactly.Atleast a UK government is accountable and can be removed by the British people.

Exactly and that single sentence is hugely relevant in this debate. A stand alone government is something Cameron won't be able to manage, but he's only got himself to blame for splitting the Conservatives and turning half a nation into eurosceptics. For years he’s blamed the European Union for stitching us up. He manufactured something that looked like his government was on the brink of war with EU. I mean, it was naughty Brussels who made him make all those heartless decisions wasn't it?.

He cried wolf once too often and we all know the ending to that fable

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Its not just the TTIP though is it Joey. As I pointed out, there are little sister deals going on behind cloaked windows and those deals are pure lunacy for the normal guy in the street.

Obama's hasty visit to the UK was for good reason. This deal is his legacy and that’s why him and Cameron have been trying to push it forward at great speed. His threats of how America will treat us if we leave Europe said it all. The TTIP will fall apart without Britain’s signature. Cameron is America’s biggest ally when it comes to these ludicrous trade agreements.

The ‘In’ campaign are now telling us that the TTIP may still go ahead in Britain if we come out or that a similar deal would/could be made. Its fear mongering nonsense. The TTIP can not happen in Britain if we come out and any new leader with an ounce of common sense and morality isn’t going to put a stand alone Britain through something that could bankrupt it in a year.

I didn't say TTIP could go ahead in the UK if out, I said a deal similar could well be on the cards though.
It seems the USA is keen on TTIP deals and in fact the EU Nations are not, hence the protests across Europe to it and the now almost fact, the TTIP deal as it stands is a non starter in the EU.

That is for me the telling point, it seems other EU Nations are even ahead of our own govt against such deals,so for me staying in is the better way tog et them rejected.

You actually said earlier our present govts leadership was in favour of TTIP, why would you think out of the EU that this present govt may not then support some similarly based deal with the USA if we leave in order to increase trading with them.
That has to be another possibility.

The one thing I am sure is that Obama's visits to the UK and to Europe have not done a thing to halt the opposition to the TTIP deal across Europe,in fact his visits have seemingly strengthened the opposition to it in the EU Nations.
So no way in my view, can I now see 27 Nations ratifying a TTIP deal with the USA, even if the UK remained in and supported TTIP.

If we come out of the EU however, we will not then have those other 27 Nations to see off any, even smaller but similar, as to content, TTIP deals that the USA may expect the UK to accept for better and more trading directly with the USA.

For me, opposition to TTIP is far better served from within the EU than out.
Just my view but no way do I see 27 EU Nations ever agreeing to ratify any TTIP deal, or in fact any similar to it with the USA.
Not a chance,I'd put money on that.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I didn't say TTIP could go ahead in the UK if out, I said a deal similar could well be on the cards though.
It seems the USA is keen on TTIP deals and in fact the EU Nations are not, hence the protests across Europe to it and the now almost fact, the TTIP deal as it stands is a non starter in the EU.

That is for me the telling point, it seems other EU Nations are even ahead of our own govt against such deals,so for me staying in is the better way tog et them rejected.

You actually said earlier our present govts leadership was in favour of TTIP, why would you think out of the EU that this present govt may not then support some similarly based deal with the USA if we leave in order to increase trading with them.
That has to be another possibility.

The one thing I am sure is that Obama's visits to the UK and to Europe have not done a thing to halt the opposition to the TTIP deal across Europe,in fact his visits have seemingly strengthened the opposition to it in the EU Nations.
So no way in my view, can I now see 27 Nations ratifying a TTIP deal with the USA, even if the UK remained in and supported TTIP.

If we come out of the EU however, we will not then have those other 27 Nations to see off any, even smaller but similar, as to content, TTIP deals that the USA may expect the UK to accept for better and more trading directly with the USA.

For me, opposition to TTIP is far better served from within the EU than out.
Just my view but no way do I see 27 EU Nations ever agreeing to ratify any TTIP deal, or in fact any similar to it with the USA.
Not a chance,I'd put money on that.

The EU is just one huge trade agreement that wants to implement other trade agreements and because we don't know who runs the EU or even how many leaders the EU has and because we can't vote on that leadership, we, the people, don't get a choice on their decisions; in fact, half the time we don't even know they are making decisions in regard to how we are allowed to live. Its like a secret order that use Cameron, the talking head to be the bearer of bad news.

A stand alone Britain votes on its stand alone government and so the government has to pacify its citizens to stand any hope of getting elected.

[MTVN]

C'mon DR, you were voting Remain not long ago, then it was Leave all because of TTIP (a deal that - as Joey has pointed out at length - is nowhere near being finalised never mind being ratified by all 28 states), now you're pedalling the same lines as the Boris and Farage about this conspiracy of a 'secret order'

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The EU is just one huge trade agreement that wants to implement other trade agreements and because we don't know who runs the EU or even how many leaders the EU has and because we can't vote on that leadership, we, the people, don't get a choice on their decisions; in fact, half the time we don't even know they are making decisions in regard to how we are allowed to live. Its like a secret order that use Cameron, the talking head to be the bearer of bad news.

A stand alone Britain votes on its stand alone government and so the government has to pacify its citizens to stand any hope of getting elected.

We do know for sure that any trading deals with the EU now have to be agreed by and then ratified by all the member Nations of the EU.
Every single one of them,so just one Country who is a member of the EU voting against any TTIP deal, means that deal is done,rejected.

At present it would seem only a minority are even warm to such a deal like TTIP with the USA and the EU.
With the vast majority of EU Nations against it.

We may well not know,who from the EU are negotiating with the USA on this but we do know 100% for sure it is indeed all the EU member Nations who will have to agree and ratify any deal.

As I said earlier, I would put money now on this deal being thrown out by the EU member Countries.

It is,with respect, really now a red herring in my view as to a valid reason to leave the EU since it is not going to happen.
Just as similarly Turkey will never get the EU Nations backing their entry either,not in the near future,the far future or even possibly ever,that is another red herring now being thrown from the 'leave' side too.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

We do know for sure that any trading deals with the EU now have to be agreed by and then ratified by all the member Nations of the EU.
Every single one of them,so just one Country who is a member of the EU voting against any TTIP deal, means that deal is done,rejected.

At present it would seem only a minority are even warm to such a deal like TTIP with the USA and the EU.
With the vast majority of EU Nations against it.

We may well not know,who from the EU are negotiating with the USA on this but we do know 100% for sure it is indeed all the EU member Nations who will have to agree and ratify any deal.

As I said earlier, I would put money now on this deal being thrown out by the EU member Countries.

It is,with respect, really now a red herring in my view as to a valid reason to leave the EU since it is not going to happen.
Just as similarly Turkey will never get the EU Nations backing their entry either,not in the near future,the far future or even possibly ever,that is another red herring now being thrown from the 'leave' side too.

corporate takeovers are already happenning even if its not ttip the eu will allow corporate takeovers to continue. thats the entire reason ti exists

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by MTVN

C'mon DR, you were voting Remain not long ago, then it was Leave all because of TTIP (a deal that - as Joey has pointed out at length - is nowhere near being finalised never mind being ratified by all 28 states), now you're pedalling the same lines as the Boris and Farage about this conspiracy of a 'secret order'

I've got no idea what Boris or Farage have been waffling on about because I pay them no attention but if they are talking about the EU being a secret order, they are right. I mean, who is our EMP's and who voted them in? Who leads the EU and who voted them in? Why aren't we allowed to look at the proposals for TTIP until after its signed for?

Being democratic includes power to the people. The more I understand or at least try to understand the workings of the EU, the more it feels like a corporate takeover.

[DemolitionRed]

As far as it being a 'red herring'. I've taken this vote very seriously. I mean, its not like I got up one morning and flipped a coin.

I was leaning more in than I was out until I did my homework with due diligence. This is not a decision I made lightly, its taken months to try and research the trade deals going on between the EU and America and one thing became abundantly clear is, British citizens and even MP's are not allowed to know what the **** is going on. Therefore I refuse to be flippant about something so fundamentally undemocratic.