[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Don't be childish, Livia

Extraordinarily rich coming from you, TS.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I wouldn't put a bet on that one Alex,I think the move is more negative than positive as to staying in now.
I still think the majority of the UK want to stay in but I am not convinced enough will better to vote on the issue, especially outside a general election.

However, I really hope you are right.

What Alex is saying, I think, is that as with the Scottish referendum, it simply won't be a loowed to happen. Such a major shift in global politics simply won't be left in the hands of the British public in any real or meaningful way.

I'm inclined to agree with him. It's a charade, its only purpose being to appease people who are (correctly) starting to feel powerless / controlled, and to take the question off the table for another 50 years.

[Niamh.]

I wonder how it would effect us if you lot left the Eu? I'd imagine the vast majority of our trade is done with the UK

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

Extraordinarily rich coming from you, TS.

It suits me, I have that je ne sais quoi that makes it hopelessly endearing. The "cheeky chappy", if you will. It's not working for you at all, it just comes across as bratty .

[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Hello Livia.
I am an in person and I know now what the situation is for the UK because we have been there for 40 years.
What I haven't a clue on, is exactly what the plans are for after we leave if we do.
I hear bits of this and that, with the additional point of it will need to be also negotiated and trade deals set in place,I do not hear what conditions, what costs what other things we will have to do in order to address the big change that will inevitably come from leaving what we already have.
Even with the bad elements of the EU, we at least know the situation more clearly.

All I hear from UKIP is we will get controls of our borders back, be able to control immigration,( which I still doubt myself),and we will save a fortune out of the EU,which I actually again doubt.
I am a member of the Labour party and they have no picture really of life now outside the EU.
The Conservatives cannot give any guarantees,and they are the govt,as to what we will negotiate on and what trade deals and conditions will apply, still, to us.

So you are an out person.
Can you enlighten those with doubts, worries and fears of actually voting to leave the EU,( quite a few on this thread too),as to the guarantees that all will be far better, will not get worse and what the things are that will make all better and not worse.
Because honestly, when we have a situation where we have been in the EU for over 40 years now and despite the annoyance and frustration at times with it,at least we know where we stand and what goes on mostly.
What we as voters then need to make the right decision, is to be shown and told and have explained, what the plans are for after an exit vote and we also need to know same plans will improve things for the UK and have the guarantees of same too.

Without such guarantees, voters are then taking a massive risk of jumping into the unknown as to the UKs strong future by voting to leave.

Just as the Scots would have done had they voted for independence,they were relying on oil as a strong source to see them thought any exit from just the UK,that plan would have fallen flat on its face now almost with the changes in oil pricing which could have been devastating for the Scottish economy.

So if you could have me sit down in front of you now,( that would be nice actually), and try to persuade me to vote out, what real guarantees can you state and offer as to the UK being better now out of the EU after over 40 years.

Hey Joey.

You say we've been here for 40 years but that simply isn't true. The Common Market this country joined in the 1970s bears no resemblance to the monster it has become.

For a long time I was on the fence about Europe and said as much on this forum... that I didn't know enough about it to make an informed decision. I put myself out to research what it meant for me and what I thought it meant for the country. It could have gone either way. Having looked at all the evidence I could get my hands on I have decided that I am going to vote for us to leave.

However, I am not campaigning for the 'Out' campaign, I would encourage everyone to make up their own minds as I have done.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I wonder how it would effect us if you lot left the Eu? I'd imagine the vast majority of our trade is done with the UK

I'd guess (hypothetically as I do agree that it won't be allowed to happen) that short term it would definitely have a negative effect on exports for Ireland, however, looking forward, I'd imagine some sort of separate trade deal specifically between Ireland and the UK would be possible or even probable. A "Special relationship" that may involve nudity and / or blood rituals.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'd guess (hypothetically as I do agree that it won't be allowed to happen) that short term it would definitely have a negative effect on exports for Ireland, however, looking forward, I'd imagine some sort of separate trade deal specifically between Ireland and the UK would be possible or even probable. A "Special relationship" that may involve nudity and / or blood rituals.

I thought it already did

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I thought it already did

What happens in Ireland stays in Ireland

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It suits me, I have that je ne sais quoi that makes it hopelessly endearing. The "cheeky chappy", if you will. It's not working for you at all, it just comes across as bratty .

If you want to start a thread about how you think I come across, go ahead. It's just what we need, someone else giving us an analysis on what they think another forum member is like and what their faults are.

Other than that, shut your pie hole. x

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

What happens in Ireland stays in Ireland

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

If you want to start a thread about how you think I come across, go ahead. It's just what we need, someone else giving us an analysis on what they think another forum member is like and what their faults are.

I would genuinely adore this thread (about all members, not just you of course) but I don't think the mods would like it. It has the potential to be the best thread since "Why Is Jesus Blinvisible", though.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I would genuinely adore this thread (about all members, not just you of course) but I don't think the mods would like it. It has the potential to be the best thread since "Why Is Jesus Blinvisible", though.

Yeah, it'd make a great thread. I love random strangers telling me where I'm going wrong.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yeah, it'd make a great thread. I love random strangers telling me where I'm going wrong.

I sense that you're not being 100% sincere.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I sense that you're not being 100% sincere.

There's no fooling you, is there.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

Hey Joey.

You say we've been here for 40 years but that simply isn't true. The Common Market this country joined in the 1970s bears no resemblance to the monster it has become.

For a long time I was on the fence about Europe and said as much on this forum... that I didn't know enough about it to make an informed decision. I put myself out to research what it meant for me and what I thought it meant for the country. It could have gone either way. Having looked at all the evidence I could get my hands on I have decided that I am going to vote for us to leave.

However, I am not campaigning for the 'Out' campaign, I would encourage everyone to make up their own minds as I have done.

Well yes it wasn't the EU as we knew it but I have read it was said in 1973 and 1975 that this was only the start of us in Europe from the politicians of the time.

It is the EU now but it has over the decades under all govts,moved on from the EEC to the EU, it is still the UK being in Europe.

So all that has happened since 1973 and the flimsy re-negotiations of 1974/5 too has contributed to the growth of the European EU as it is now and also has had its effect on the UKs status too all through those decades too.

So we have seen and know what things are being in Europe as in the EU then as an European Nation which is what we are.

So we know where we are and likely to go, we will not be joining the Euro,no further treaties can be signed without the UK being asked in a referendum,that is now entrenched in law as to Parliament.

However what we don't know is the guarantees of what we will have, get and where we may go if the UK voted to leave.
So I say again, taking the risk of leaving what we know and have now, for something else now with little or even no guarantees seems too big a risk in this modern world for me.

The in people can point to what we have and know, good and bad guaranteed as to the EU.
What the out people need to tell everyone is what we can certainly have and the guarantees of future stability and success after leaving the EU.
All the good and bad of that situation too.

In the absence of that and I cannot find anyone who can give any concrete guarantees even as to what conditions the EU would then impose on us to just even trade with them,then I for one, will prefer to stay with the guarantees we already have and know within the EU.
Not taking any risk as to the future by going into something with no real even basic guarantees.
I'd prefer to really work for change and reform of the EU from within rather than be out and them be able to place on the UK afterwards any charges and conditions they wish for us to have any deals with them.

Yes we will get deals but at what price, again the out people don't and maybe cannot answer that.
Those who don't know ye how they may vote however, should be told all the pitfalls and also the guarantees there will be in place after an exit vote.
Without them,that's a very dangerous thing to vote for in any scenario.

I have been asked many times what has made me decide to vote to stay in,and am always happy to say what that was,surely those who wish to vote out, can enlighten how they came to that decision,if only to help the don't knows who seem to get more and more confused by the media and politicians.
This is a massive decision that will not only affect the UKs status,the economy, the unity of European Nations but it will likely affect massively the lives of UK citizens and all the futures of children in the UK too.
It is their futures we will be voting on and for too,not just ours and the UKs.

Thanks for your response however.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Livia

So what's the problem? If people really don't want to come back, why would they want to hold on to their British passport, Britain being such a dreadful place according to you.

There will be some kind of reciprocal arrangement I'm sure. It's hardly likely that no provision will be made for ex-pats... but they'll undoubtedly miss having a British passport and automatically being able to cross borders... although there's nothing decided as far as I know.

And anyway, is everyone assuming that no one lived or worked abroad before the borders were opened?

There will undoubtedly be a period of adjustment so people can make up their minds where they want to remain. I think this is just something that "In" voters are clinging on to as an argument when they have no more idea than anyone else right now what the answer is, but have decided to look on the bleak side as usual.

It's not an argument "in" voters are clinging to as I haven't heard it mentioned once in any pro or con arguments which is a concern to me. Of course people worked elsewhere before the EU was formed but they would have needed paperwork other than passports to do so.

[bitontheslide]

One of the issues that I have over an EU exit is the lack of accountability if it proved to be an unmitigated disaster. The people decided - maybe, but was the decision arrived at knowing all the facts and consequences.

I will happily go along with the majority decision, I have a preference for IN ... but that's as far as it goes, its nothing more than a preference, my world won't end tomorrow if we say OUT. I travelled throughout europe prior to the EU and I will happily travel if we leave.

I believe all the arguments around immigration have been vastly overstated, so if that's seen as 1 of the main reasons to leave, I think people will be sadly disappointed.

On the other side, I don't think leaving Europe will have any real effect on business. People trade and make money, that will never change, and London will probably be a stronger financial center out of Europe than in it.

[joeysteele]

[QUOTE=bitontheslide;8521706]One of the issues that I have over an EU exit is the lack of accountability if it proved to be an unmitigated disaster. The people decided - maybe, but was the decision arrived at knowing all the facts and consequences.

I will happily go along with the majority decision, I have a preference for IN ... but that's as far as it goes, its nothing more than a preference, my world won't end tomorrow if we say OUT. I travelled throughout europe prior to the EU and I will happily travel if we leave.

I believe all the arguments around immigration have been vastly overstated, so if that's seen as 1 of the main reasons to leave, I think people will be sadly disappointed.

On the other side, I don't think leaving Europe will have any real effect on business. People trade and make money, that will never change, and London will probably be a stronger financial center out of Europe than in it.[/QUOTE]



I agree with all your points.
However I would like to add, trading with the EU will probably be made more costly for us by being out,companies for instance then, going through the UK to trade with the EU may find it less lucrative to do so than say going through France or another Nation that will still be firm members.

This is the thing though,we don't know, we have no guarantees,no one from the out cause can tell us anything concrete and sadly,I think a high number who will vote, will vote as to the immigration issue in a scaremongered false belief that leaving will massively alter that, and that it likely will get far worse if we stayed in.

Your first paragraph is spot on and excellently put, every word of that paragraph is something really important that needs very careful thought by all intending to vote in the referendum, which incredibly may now only be about 4 months away.

[DemolitionRed]

My 'out' thoughts come from big business versus small business. The EU is great for multi pound businesses but its not good for the small fry. Its not good for the skilled workers like bricklayers, plumbers and roofers but lets face it, our old empire only ever benefited those and the top and the EU superstate is just a wider version of that.

My dad often says that he gleefully voted for a Common Market back in 75 but if he'd known that Common Market would morph into a federal state, he would of crossed the 'NO' box.

My entire family want out for varying reasons. I'm billy no mates in my family at the moment.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yeah, it'd make a great thread. I love random strangers telling me where I'm going wrong.

Oh you get used to it, it's no big deal.

[Kizzy]

Just why now, I don't get it while there is so much instability in the world...Is it really just about business?

[the truth]

The british public will be bullied and brainwashed by all the powerful people right from the monarchy to Cameron corbyn lib dems and their rich chums to stay in Europe or else Britain will fall into the English channel.....It's a load of rubbish. weve become enslaved to the EU to the point where were too scared to be without them and their vile wasteful corrupt eltitist money grabbing racket. its basically just like communism, they destroy the individual and national confidence to such a degree you are too scared to leave them. Or even a movie like the Truman show where Truman is controlled by an unscrupulous tv director to the point where he feels powerless to leave.

We are GREAT Britain we have been for centuries and our 4 home nations have been here for 1000s of years before that. We have our own laws, we invented the nhs, we invented parliamentary democracy, we invented the industrial revolution, we can build ships, we can fish, we can dredge our shores, we can build, we can produce our steel and coal and tin and copper , we can produce more of our own green energy, we can fight to get our production costs down.....We have and we can and we don't need any politician from Belgium france Bulgaria or Luxembourg or anywhere else to do it for us.....the entire structure of the EU is set up like pyramid selling where the first few in get all the perks the money the best deals and information...the rest are the suckers who throw in their money their jobs their resources and their sovereignty, in some cases even their currency and interest rates too......Guess what happened to those countries BANKRUPT BANKRUPT BANKRUPT BANKRUPT BANKRUPT ETC ETC again and again and again. In the case of Italy we have the horrifying spectacle of the German chancellor actually replacing the democratically elected Italian government and no one said a word?
UNBELIEVABLE

Those clowns who called us little Englanders and bigots because we didn't give in when they demanded we give up the pound 10 / 15 years ago . where are they now? if we listened to their demands we would really be sunk in the irish sea
endless nations bankrupted, no growth , in some cases 40% unemployment rates, youth unemployment at over 50% in some nations....and these nations ARE POWERLESS FOREVER TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT? THEY HAVE TO GO TO GERMANYS CHANCELLOR WITH A BEGGING BOWL? THE EU EVEN ENSLAVES US TO CORPORATIONS EVER MORE SO , AS SMALL BUSINESSES CANNOT AFFORD TO DEAL WITH THEIR INFINITE RED TAPE....(ALTHOUGH A CORPORATE BACKED COMPANY LIKE UBER CABS , WORTH Ł0 BILLION, IS ALLOWED TO MARCH THROUGH EUROPE UNREGULATED) COUNTRIES MUST HAVE AUTONOMY OVER THEIR OWN NATION, THEIR OWN LAWS, THEIR OWN RESOURCES, THEIR OWN MEANS OF PRODUCTION, THEIR OWN MINERALS AND RICHES, THEIR OWN TAXES, THEIR OWN EXPENDITURE, THEIR OWN CURRENCY, THEIR OWN INTEREST RATES...THATS WHAT A COUNTRY IS....WITHOUT THESE THINGS YOU ARE NOT A COUNTRY , YOURE MERELY A STATE RULED BY ANOTHER COUNTRY- GERMANY

Take a look at Greece and see how disastrous they've been hit......the biggest ship builders in Europe now barely making a tug boat, train prices more pricey than taxis, yet more weapons than almost every nation on earth, enforced upon them by merkels Germany and giving them monstrous debts at enormous interest rates that will go on forever...http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...eeve-episode-1

To those who succumb to the fear and bullying , remember this. The sun will still rise, the nation will not fall into the sea. Our jobs will not be lost. We can remain as a trading partner. In fact we will become more popular and more successful as our small and medium businesses will not be strangled by the 75000 word EU constitution of laws, rules and regulations. We will save ourselves Ł13 billion per annum for starters. Trust me the EU project will continue to fail anyway. The structure is designed to fail (except for Germany and Austria) even French unemployment has sky rocket to 11%. UK unemployment for all the tory hate, has almost halved to 5.1% and we have created more new jobs in the last 6 years than the rest of Europe put together (2.3 million). We can make cross country agreements, we can remain in the UN, NATO, THE G8, THE G20, THE CRUCIAL OECD (ORGANIZATION FOR ECONOMIC CO-OPERATION AND DEVELOPMENT) AND DOZENS MORE WORLDWIDE CROSS NATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS FOR THE ENVIRONMENT, THE FISHERIES, ARMS, MIGRATION ETC

The EU creates the fake illusion of a false sense of security, except its the exact opposite, it makes everyone big bloated , confused and powerless to change when you need to change, to move when you need to move, when a disaster falls upon you, you need to move fast, you don't need to run it by 30 countries, 500,000 people, 70,000 pages of laws, and 1000s of politicians.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

What Alex is saying, I think, is that as with the Scottish referendum, it simply won't be a loowed to happen. Such a major shift in global politics simply won't be left in the hands of the British public in any real or meaningful way.

I'm inclined to agree with him. It's a charade, its only purpose being to appease people who are (correctly) starting to feel powerless / controlled, and to take the question off the table for another 50 years.

I do sincerely hope Alex is right and the vote is to stay in.
I have made it clear I will vote to stay in.

However the difference,and big difference, between the Scots independence referendum and this one will be, there is a perception that the EU is to blame for the failure to control fully the immigration issue,it being presented as near all bad by those against immigration,by UKIP in particular, who blame it for all the UKs ills almost.

If people go out to vote with that in their heads then I can really see a narrow exit vote.
I have talked to so many people of all political persuasion, who really do seriously believe that the UK leaving the EU, will bring to an end all unwanted immigration.
That to me is extremely worrying that such a lie can be presented as fact and so many are taken in by it.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I do sincerely hope Alex is right and the vote is to stay in.
I have made it clear I will vote to stay in.

However the difference,and big difference, between the Scots independence referendum and this one will be, there is a perception that the EU is to blame for the failure to control fully the immigration issue,it being presented as near all bad by those against immigration,by UKIP in particular, who blame it for all the UKs ills almost.

If people go out to vote with that in their heads then I can really see a narrow exit vote.
I have talked to so many people of all political persuasion, who really do seriously believe that the UK leaving the EU, will bring to an end all unwanted immigration.
That to me is extremely worrying that such a lie can be presented as fact and so many are taken in by it.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who hears this over and over again. From what was said on here earlier, I had started to wonder if I'd imagined those conversations

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I do sincerely hope Alex is right and the vote is to stay in.
I have made it clear I will vote to stay in.

However the difference,and big difference, between the Scots independence referendum and this one will be, there is a perception that the EU is to blame for the failure to control fully the immigration issue,it being presented as near all bad by those against immigration,by UKIP in particular, who blame it for all the UKs ills almost.

If people go out to vote with that in their heads then I can really see a narrow exit vote.
I have talked to so many people of all political persuasion, who really do seriously believe that the UK leaving the EU, will bring to an end all unwanted immigration.
That to me is extremely worrying that such a lie can be presented as fact and so many are taken in by it.

I doubt anyone really believes that