[DemolitionRed]

Peers vote by 283 to 198 to send proposal back to Commons, in second welfare and work bill setback for the government this week.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jan/27/lord…

"There are things which can encourage disabled people into work ... cutting their benefits is not one of them". - Colin Low


I have no opinion on this topic but please carry on.

[Tom4784]

Loving the Lords shooting down the Tories every chance they get. Tories have done nothing but **** on the people that voted for them.

[DemolitionRed]

******************

[kirklancaster]

Welcoming news, and about a decision fairly arrived at under our Democratic Process to boot.

(I mean the Lord's Decision - NOT Dave Cam's plan. )

[joeysteele]

This is another disgraceful plan from IDS, I hope another scrapping of an obscene policy does come from the Lords defeat.

[Kizzy]

Fantastic news, The lovely JK Rowling put it best when she christened them 'death eaters' ...so true, the more unfortunates die the more powerful they become.

[Livia]

Good to see the system still works.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

Good to see the system still works.

Yep - It definitely works better than anarchist baying mobs trying to IMPOSE THEIR will upon the rest of us.

[joeysteele]

If some people. (like one of my Cousins for instance who is now part of a anarchist mob it appears as well as being an inbred moron), didn't make a great noise about the injustice of some rotten, heartless social policies from govts, just perhaps this might have slipped through the Lords.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

If some people. (like one of my Cousins for instance who is now part of a anarchist mob it appears as well as being an inbred moron), didn't make a great noise about the injustice of some rotten, heartless social policies from govts, just perhaps this might have slipped trough the Lords.

Fair point there Joey, nice to see the lords siding with those affected, as we have seen happening increasingly frequently Joey are things being rushed through this 'democratic' system without any impact assessment or forethought whatsoever.
And flabbers are agast when these policies are seen to create mayhem for those affected and their families.
Oh but they were voted on, they must be based on sound information?.....Um, no.

[DemolitionRed]

oops nothing to say here

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

If some people. (like one of my Cousins for instance who is now part of a anarchist mob it appears as well as being an inbred moron), didn't make a great noise about the injustice of some rotten, heartless social policies from govts, just perhaps this might have slipped through the Lords.

Is THAT incident THE only incident? And I will say it again - There is a VAST difference between lawful demonstrations or protests no matter how VOCAL, and baying anarchist mobs who are trying to impose their will by physical violence and intimidation.

Further, just because I oppose such mobs does not mean that I am in favour of what is being protested about, because I am not, and I have stated many times that this government's 'Austerity Measures' are wrong, and 'Hitting The Wrong Targets'.

A 'Social Conscience' and desire for 'Fair Play' is NOT exclusive to the Left Wing or Labourites on here, but some of us have the rationality to see that not everything Tory is evil and not everything Labour is good.

Baying anarchist and irascible mobs with an arrogant inclination towards unlawfulness are WRONG - no matter whether they are Left, Centre or Right in their politics.

[Kizzy]

Have there been any anarchic protests this year?...I can't think of any.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Is THAT incident THE only incident? And I will say it again - There is a VAST difference between lawful demonstrations or protests no matter how VOCAL, and baying anarchist mobs who are trying to impose their will by physical violence and intimidation.

Further, just because I oppose such mobs does not mean that I am in favour of what is being protested about, because I am not, and I have stated many times that this government's 'Austerity Measures' are wrong, and 'Hitting The Wrong Targets'.

A 'Social Conscience' and desire for 'Fair Play' is NOT exclusive to the Left Wing or Labourites on here, but some of us have the rationality to see that not everything Tory is evil and not everything Labour is good.

Baying anarchist and irascible mobs with an arrogant inclination towards unlawfulness are WRONG - no matter whether they are Left, Centre or Right in their politics.

Well what was unlawful about that incident with IDS then, was anyone arrested,charged, appearing in Court, punished.
No.

So what was unlawful about it?

Now,add to that this govt has had its policy declared illegal in a Court, perhaps the same gusto applied to that fact rather than insulting in full generalisation people,some who may have very genuine grievances would be more appropriate.
It certainly is for me.

Political history has had many instances where the,yes, even the law has had to be broken to win change at times.
It doesn't make those people 'bad' people.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

If some people. (like one of my Cousins for instance who is now part of a anarchist mob it appears as well as being an inbred moron), didn't make a great noise about the injustice of some rotten, heartless social policies from govts, just perhaps this might have slipped through the Lords.

If there's one thing I'm sure about it's that an anarchist mob has no relevance in what happens in the Lords. Suddenly it seems that everyone not on the left is a monster who needs an anarchist mob - of all people - to show them right from wrong, and that the left has the monopoly on owning a conscience.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

If there's one thing I'm sure about it's that an anarchist mob has no relevance in what happens in the Lords. Suddenly it seems that everyone not on the left is a monster who needs an anarchist mob - of all people - to show them right from wrong, and that the left has the monopoly on owning a conscience.

Actually with respect,I do have a conscience that has been formed very strongly from what I have gone out and found what was wrong and how people were suffering under this govt.

I am sad to see you being as selective as some and near condoning the terms of inbred morons and anarchist mobs.

My Cousin for one is not an anarchist or an inbred moron either, those are terms being used on here to describe people on the left as well as other unnecessary and inappropriate.
I don't know about anarchist mobs but the one ting I do know is IDS needs some extreme reaction when he dares show himself for the truly rotten way he is making people suffer who should be protected.
You may possibly admire his policy as to that but I certainly don't.

Wherever they got the energy from to vote this rotten policy down in the Lords, (you yourself mention and appear to endorse the term anarchist mob too in your post as the protesters),at least the Lords appear to have listened to someone or some groupings.
Which is a lot more than this rotten heartless Work and Pensions secretary will ever do for sure.

Just sometimes,people fed up with things have to raise their voices to get heard and should 'not',when people don't know them, be branded inbred morons or anarchists.
Had I been there I'd have joined any attempt to disrupt IDS day,he is ruining and disrupting the most vulnerable's days, every day of the week and not just the vulnerable but their families and people who look out for,help and care for them too.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

If there's one thing I'm sure about it's that an anarchist mob has no relevance in what happens in the Lords. Suddenly it seems that everyone not on the left is a monster who needs an anarchist mob - of all people - to show them right from wrong, and that the left has the monopoly on owning a conscience.

Hang on, at what point did the discussion take a turn left or right?

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Loving the Lords shooting down the Tories every chance they get. Tories have done nothing but **** on the people that voted for them.

What's even better is that some of the people that are dismissing them used to be Tories.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Actually with respect,I do have a conscience that has been formed very strongly from what I have gone out and found what was wrong and how people were suffering under this govt.

I am sad to see you being as selective as some and near condoning the terms of inbred morons and anarchist mobs.

My Cousin for one is not an anarchist or an inbred moron either, those are terms being used on here to describe people on the left as well as other unnecessary and inappropriate.
I don't know about anarchist mobs but the one ting I do know is IDS needs some extreme reaction when he dares show himself for the truly rotten way he is making people suffer who should be protected.
You may possibly admire his policy as to that but I certainly don't.

Wherever they got the energy from to vote this rotten policy down in the Lords, (you yourself mention and appear to endorse the term anarchist mob too in your post as the protesters),at least the Lords appear to have listened to someone or some groupings.
Which is a lot more than this rotten heartless Work and Pensions secretary will ever do for sure.

Just sometimes,people fed up with things have to raise their voices to get heard and should 'not',when people don't know them, be branded inbred morons or anarchists.
Had I been there I'd have joined any attempt to disrupt IDS day,he is ruining and disrupting the most vulnerable's days, every day of the week and not just the vulnerable but their families and people who look out for,help and care for them too.

WHY do you keep persisting in bringing up your cousin Joey?

I am no longer going to allow myself to be dragged into personal argument with anyone on these forums, but neither will I continue to allow misrepresentation to lie on here unchallenged for posterity.

HERE is what I wrote to you after you notified me that your cousin was one of the 'protesters' involved in the incident with IDS:

"First of all; I apologise for my terminology if your cousin was one of those taking part in this, but I hope that he was not one of the principals seen and heard in the video because:

This was NOT some 'peaceful protest' and the sheep-like bleating of 'Murderer' and the other cries WERE moronic.

These 'protesters' WERE right up against the car NOT '100 feet away'.

These 'protesters WERE intent in unlawfully preventing the car from leaving.

These 'protesters' WERE being threatening.

These 'protesters' were becoming increasing more volatile and if it were not for the police presence, this situation COULD and probably WOULD have escalated into some form of violence.

And NO - these 'protesters' would NOT have been 'hailed' by me had they been acting in the same undemocratic, intimidating manner against some 'Labour' politician.

And NO, Kizzy views have NOT made really good points all the way through - they have been countered and exposed and done more 'U turns' than Jeremy Corbyn.

This is supposed to be Serious Debates, but it is neither 'Serious' - when mere Left wing propaganda is not only trotted out without substantiation, but continues to be trotted out in the face of factual response to the contrary - nor is it 'Debate', when NOTHING is debated because the truth is ignored whenever that truth does not agree with wild Left Wing claims.

I did not vote Tory. I do not like IDS or agree with his policies, but neither do I agree with 'Mob Rule' or the attempt by ANY group to impose their will by threat and intimidation - against the laws of this country.

IDS has as much rights as anyone else to go about his lawful business without being accosted by ugly mobs - as did Farage when he was out with his family for a quiet lunch when another violent moronic mob invaded his privacy and jumped on his car - and I will reiterate just WHY I vehemently oppose these types of 'protests':

"We have a democratic process for expressing discontent with a political party, but more than that, we have a time-honoured tradition outside of that process for peaceful protest including heckling and jeering, and this being the GREAT DEMOCRACY it is, such peaceful protesters can exercise that tradition safe from being murdered or brutalised by the state - as in other countries.

These mobs are NOT peaceful protesters though - are they?"

Not everything bad in this country is the fault of the Tories, and the Labour Party and Left Wing are not some blameless paragons of virtue, but the ballot box and PEACEFUL orderly protest are the ways forward for anyone who disagrees with Government policy - NOT trying to impose their way by threat and intimidation."

And HERE is the actual video of the incident:

Youtube video

As can CLEARLY be HEARD; 8 seconds into the video - despite the male inbreed's incessant strangled cries of 'Murderer' - a female 'protester' screams more than once; "We don't want them getting out", and as can CLEARLY be SEEN, these 'peaceful' protesters' were AT THE CAR WINDOWS and surrounding the car.

Why is it deemed OK for you to be so passionate against Cameron, IDS and the Tories, but NOT OK for me to be so passionate against undemocratic anarchic 'protests' which involve threat and intimidation?

As for your cousin, does his presence in this 'protest' preclude it from being anarchic, undemocratic, intimidatory or threatening?

No one is saying that HE was DIRECTLY complicit in surrounding the car or baying that he "did not want the car to leave", and perhaps this DID start out as a legitimate protest but just as a lot of other intended 'peaceful' demonstrations and protests are 'hijacked' by anarchists and professional agitators resulting in lawlessness, threat and intimidation, this was certainly NOT simply a vociferous protest.

Some on here saw nothing wrong with those cretins who jumped all over Farage's car and terrified his family. Some saw nothing wrong with those cretins who defaced the War Memorial, so the problem seems to be one of perception and definition - as most 'arguments' are on here - your view and mine of what constitutes a 'peaceful' and 'legitimate' protest vastly differ.

I am afraid, it is one which we will never resolve, so I suggest we leave it here Joey.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

WHY do you keep persisting in bringing up your cousin Joey?

I am no longer going to allow myself to be dragged into personal argument with anyone on these forums, but neither will I continue to allow misrepresentation to lie on here unchallenged for posterity.

HERE is what I wrote to you after you notified me that your cousin was one of the 'protesters' involved in the incident with IDS:

"First of all; I apologise for my terminology if your cousin was one of those taking part in this, but I hope that he was not one of the principals seen and heard in the video because:

This was NOT some 'peaceful protest' and the sheep-like bleating of 'Murderer' and the other cries WERE moronic.

These 'protesters' WERE right up against the car NOT '100 feet away'.

These 'protesters WERE intent in unlawfully preventing the car from leaving.

These 'protesters' WERE being threatening.

These 'protesters' were becoming increasing more volatile and if it were not for the police presence, this situation COULD and probably WOULD have escalated into some form of violence.

And NO - these 'protesters' would NOT have been 'hailed' by me had they been acting in the same undemocratic, intimidating manner against some 'Labour' politician.

And NO, Kizzy views have NOT made really good points all the way through - they have been countered and exposed and done more 'U turns' than Jeremy Corbyn.

This is supposed to be Serious Debates, but it is neither 'Serious' - when mere Left wing propaganda is not only trotted out without substantiation, but continues to be trotted out in the face of factual response to the contrary - nor is it 'Debate', when NOTHING is debated because the truth is ignored whenever that truth does not agree with wild Left Wing claims.

I did not vote Tory. I do not like IDS or agree with his policies, but neither do I agree with 'Mob Rule' or the attempt by ANY group to impose their will by threat and intimidation - against the laws of this country.

IDS has as much rights as anyone else to go about his lawful business without being accosted by ugly mobs - as did Farage when he was out with his family for a quiet lunch when another violent moronic mob invaded his privacy and jumped on his car - and I will reiterate just WHY I vehemently oppose these types of 'protests':

"We have a democratic process for expressing discontent with a political party, but more than that, we have a time-honoured tradition outside of that process for peaceful protest including heckling and jeering, and this being the GREAT DEMOCRACY it is, such peaceful protesters can exercise that tradition safe from being murdered or brutalised by the state - as in other countries.

These mobs are NOT peaceful protesters though - are they?"

Not everything bad in this country is the fault of the Tories, and the Labour Party and Left Wing are not some blameless paragons of virtue, but the ballot box and PEACEFUL orderly protest are the ways forward for anyone who disagrees with Government policy - NOT trying to impose their way by threat and intimidation."

And HERE is the actual video of the incident:

Youtube video

As can CLEARLY be HEARD; 8 seconds into the video - despite the male inbreed's incessant strangled cries of 'Murderer' - a female 'protester' screams more than once; "We don't want them getting out", and as can CLEARLY be SEEN, these 'peaceful' protesters' were AT THE CAR WINDOWS and surrounding the car.

Why is it deemed OK for you to be so passionate against Cameron, IDS and the Tories, but NOT OK for me to be so passionate against undemocratic anarchic 'protests' which involve threat and intimidation?

As for your cousin, does his presence in this 'protest' preclude it from being anarchic, undemocratic, intimidatory or threatening?

No one is saying that HE was DIRECTLY complicit in surrounding the car or baying that he "did not want the car to leave", and perhaps this DID start out as a legitimate protest but just as a lot of other intended 'peaceful' demonstrations and protests are 'hijacked' by anarchists and professional agitators resulting in lawlessness, threat and intimidation, this was certainly NOT simply a vociferous protest.

Some on here saw nothing wrong with those cretins who jumped all over Farage's car and terrified his family. Some saw nothing wrong with those cretins who defaced the War Memorial, so the problem seems to be one of perception and definition - as most 'arguments' are on here - your view and mine of what constitutes a 'peaceful' and 'legitimate' protest vastly differ.

I am afraid, it is one which we will never resolve, so I suggest we leave it here Joey.

I think I responded to Livia when she mentioned your term anarchist mob,in relation to those who hijacked the visit of IDS.
One of my Cousins was one of those people,I take a lot of learning from my family and respect their opinions both ways, in agreement with me and not.
I avoid the use of 'generalising' when describing people I do not know,so I would not term all inbred morons,a highly offensive term in any capacity,nor would I assume all involved in any activity as anarchists either.

When you describe people such as in that hijacking,l I saw no word saying 'maybe some', the terminology was that all were inbred morons and anarchists, since you again raise it .


Since I know at least one person who was one of them, my own Cousin, it is very relevant for me, knowing such person to not be an inbred moron or anarchist, to again point that out, as I did in Livia's response to me.

If you are uncomfortable with respect, at me raising that point again,perhaps again with the greatest respect, generalising as to opinion of all people is not the best way to make an argument.

I know how I feel about IDS, you claim to feel the same almost, yet you would rather attack his attackers than make much attack as to him and his policies.
You also described the protest unlawful.
I asked you where there was any evidence of that,you have chosen not to submit any or cannot.

Yet avoiding the full fact that a court of law, has described this IDS policy on this thread as discriminatory and unlawful against those people in the cases raised in the court.

I bring up my Cousin because along with others he joined in with those disrupting IDS,as I would have had I been there too.
So I know completely one of the people who did join in that day, and I also know that person is NOT in any way an inbred moron or anarchist.

However, since asking for your evidence of anyone being prosecuted for any unlawful act that day, I have not responded to you directly and again did not do so today either, I answered Livia not you!
By the way I drag no one into arguments, I do not even set out to argue but your comments are posted for all to read unamended and therefore like mine are open to challenge and debate by others.

I made no response to you today, so with respect again,it is in fact you dragging yourself into the issue again by responding to a post I made to Livia which was in fact a response to a response she made to one of my posts.
Little to do with you but she used one of your generalised terms in her response to me.
.

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

WHY do you keep persisting in bringing up your cousin Joey?

I am no longer going to allow myself to be dragged into personal argument with anyone on these forums, but neither will I continue to allow misrepresentation to lie on here unchallenged for posterity.

HERE is what I wrote to you after you notified me that your cousin was one of the 'protesters' involved in the incident with IDS:

"First of all; I apologise for my terminology if your cousin was one of those taking part in this, but I hope that he was not one of the principals seen and heard in the video because:

This was NOT some 'peaceful protest' and the sheep-like bleating of 'Murderer' and the other cries WERE moronic.

These 'protesters' WERE right up against the car NOT '100 feet away'.

These 'protesters WERE intent in unlawfully preventing the car from leaving.

These 'protesters' WERE being threatening.

These 'protesters' were becoming increasing more volatile and if it were not for the police presence, this situation COULD and probably WOULD have escalated into some form of violence.

And NO - these 'protesters' would NOT have been 'hailed' by me had they been acting in the same undemocratic, intimidating manner against some 'Labour' politician.

And NO, Kizzy views have NOT made really good points all the way through - they have been countered and exposed and done more 'U turns' than Jeremy Corbyn.

This is supposed to be Serious Debates, but it is neither 'Serious' - when mere Left wing propaganda is not only trotted out without substantiation, but continues to be trotted out in the face of factual response to the contrary - nor is it 'Debate', when NOTHING is debated because the truth is ignored whenever that truth does not agree with wild Left Wing claims.

I did not vote Tory. I do not like IDS or agree with his policies, but neither do I agree with 'Mob Rule' or the attempt by ANY group to impose their will by threat and intimidation - against the laws of this country.

IDS has as much rights as anyone else to go about his lawful business without being accosted by ugly mobs - as did Farage when he was out with his family for a quiet lunch when another violent moronic mob invaded his privacy and jumped on his car - and I will reiterate just WHY I vehemently oppose these types of 'protests':

"We have a democratic process for expressing discontent with a political party, but more than that, we have a time-honoured tradition outside of that process for peaceful protest including heckling and jeering, and this being the GREAT DEMOCRACY it is, such peaceful protesters can exercise that tradition safe from being murdered or brutalised by the state - as in other countries.

These mobs are NOT peaceful protesters though - are they?"

Not everything bad in this country is the fault of the Tories, and the Labour Party and Left Wing are not some blameless paragons of virtue, but the ballot box and PEACEFUL orderly protest are the ways forward for anyone who disagrees with Government policy - NOT trying to impose their way by threat and intimidation."

And HERE is the actual video of the incident:

Youtube video

As can CLEARLY be HEARD; 8 seconds into the video - despite the male inbreed's incessant strangled cries of 'Murderer' - a female 'protester' screams more than once; "We don't want them getting out", and as can CLEARLY be SEEN, these 'peaceful' protesters' were AT THE CAR WINDOWS and surrounding the car.

Why is it deemed OK for you to be so passionate against Cameron, IDS and the Tories, but NOT OK for me to be so passionate against undemocratic anarchic 'protests' which involve threat and intimidation?

As for your cousin, does his presence in this 'protest' preclude it from being anarchic, undemocratic, intimidatory or threatening?

No one is saying that HE was DIRECTLY complicit in surrounding the car or baying that he "did not want the car to leave", and perhaps this DID start out as a legitimate protest but just as a lot of other intended 'peaceful' demonstrations and protests are 'hijacked' by anarchists and professional agitators resulting in lawlessness, threat and intimidation, this was certainly NOT simply a vociferous protest.

Some on here saw nothing wrong with those cretins who jumped all over Farage's car and terrified his family. Some saw nothing wrong with those cretins who defaced the War Memorial, so the problem seems to be one of perception and definition - as most 'arguments' are on here - your view and mine of what constitutes a 'peaceful' and 'legitimate' protest vastly differ.

I am afraid, it is one which we will never resolve, so I suggest we leave it here Joey.

A very honest and brilliant post Kirk. Sadly it will fall on deaf left wing ears as they play the same record over and over again too infinity whilst shouting down you and anyone else in here who's point of view does not match their own left wing agenda. But very well said none the less Kirk. Remember this Kirk, You cannot debate with the undebatables.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Loving the Lords shooting down the Tories every chance they get. Tories have done nothing but **** on the people that voted for them.

Absolutely right.

I hope the House of lords carries on with its new found sense of real and fair social justice as to its voting.

[King Gizzard]

Amount of peaceful protesters far outweigh anarchic thugs who join in just so they have an excuse/a cause. But you only hear about the protests when a small portion of them turn sour don't you? Not the hundreds of peaceful protests that go untouched by BBC amongst other media outlets

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Amount of peaceful protesters far outweigh anarchic thugs who join in just so they have an excuse/a cause. But you only hear about the protests when a small portion of them turn sour don't you? Not the hundreds of peaceful protests that go untouched by BBC amongst other media outlets

I agree, having been on more than one protest, including supporting the striking miners during the 80's, but the truth - that more and more 'peaceful' protests are now being hijacked and 'used' by subversive factions who have NO genuine interest in the original purpose or cause of such protests - cannot be denied.

When peaceful and legitimate protests, rallies, or demonstrations descend into looting, civil strife, arson or threat, intimidation and/or violence, it is ALWAYS going to be reported.

Even without infiltration by 'professional' subversives, the most sincere, peaceful, and law abiding of protesters cannot always control the angrier, more volatile and unstable elements among their group, and THAT is where an intended peaceful protest can also escalate into threatening behaviour, intimidation and violence.

This much is so well attested by newsreel footage and genuine reportage that it is - for me - irrefutable.

It is a shame, that 'Good News is No News' but that - alas - is the way it has always been, and these idiots who do create mayhem do not in fact do any favours to the protest cause, because it either marginalises it by overshadowing it, or actually creates opposition to it by inducing anger and irritation and resentment within great sections of society.

[Kizzy]

I totally understand Joey why defamatory insults would offend you regarding your cousin and his protesting, again personally I feel he was entirely justified.
The thread has been overshadowed and bares no relevance to the topic in discussion at the moment it seems which is a shame.
"There are things which can encourage disabled people into work ... cutting their benefits is not one of them"
This statement sums up how I feel about the proposed changes to ESA I really hope the govt take on board the weight of support from the lords and amend this rushed, ill thought out decision.