[kirklancaster]

DAVID CAMERON'S 'EU DEAL' IS AN UTTER FRAUD'

The 'Remain' camp use the 'Deal' as a crutch to support their non-argument;

"It is better to stay in the E.U. and change it from within".

"The E.U. is flawed, but we can only change it for the better if we remain in. Outside the E.U. we won't have any leverage." BUT:

DAVID CAMERON'S 'E.U. RENOGITATION DEAL' IS A WELL PLANNED COMPLEX CON AGAINST THE BRITISH PEOPLE WHICH IS LEGALLY INVALID AND NOT WORTH THE PAPER IT IS WRITTEN UPON.

THE 'DEAL' IS NOT LEGAL

Despite the views to the contrary by a MINORITY of pro-EU lawyers and others who have the same vested interests as Cameron, it is BEYOND DISPUTE that the 'Deal' was NOT made by the EUROPEAN COUNCIL but with the H.S.G's - the HEADS oF state of GOVERNMENTS who are NOT a legal institution of the EU, but a mere intergovernmental forum acting outside the EU treaty framework, and the H.S.G's do NOT have the authority to make treaties.

Although they were meeting WITHIN the European Council, they were NOT not acting AS the European Council.

Even the European Council does NOT have ANY authority to make treaties and because this WAS not an agreement made with ANY EU institution, Cameron's 'Deal' is totally INVALID and incapable of being LEGALLY BINDING under EU law.

The 'Deal' needs to be 'carried' by a vote of 751 MEPs in what is known as the 'co-decision' or 'ordinary legislative procedure' and needs the agreement of the EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT as well as the HSG's OFFICIALLY acting AS the EUROPEAN COUNCIL for it to be Legally Binding'.

Even GENUINE treaties are NOT legally binding until they have been ratified - and this IS NO LEGAL TREATY - but HERE, surely ANY intelligent citizen must ask themselves, as to WHY it is that the EU insisted that NO RATIFICATION will take place until AFTER the EU Referendum?

Not only that, but we are not being told just how quickly or even WHEN the 'non-Treaty' is being ratified - 2016? 2020? - How about NEVER once the UK has voted to remain and it is all too late, because THERE IS NO 'DEAL' TO RATIFY.

JUST LOOK AT WHAT THE EU 'BIGWIGS' THEMSELVES HAVE ADMITTED ABOUT CAMERON'S 'DEAL':

MARTIN SCHULTZ - THE PRESIDENT of THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT:

.
"David Cameron’s package of EU reforms cannot be made legally binding before the British public vote on it, and The European Parliament COULD AMEND ANY DEAL done at today’s summit and WOULD NOT NECESSARILY EVEN RUBBER STAMP IT AT ALL".

“NO GOVERNMENT can go to a parliament and ASK FOR A GUARANTEE ABOUT THE RESULT".
*
This threat is both a revelation and a far cry from Cameron's assurance that his deal was 'legally binding' but it is Schultz's unambiguous WARNING to us Brits which should ram home what I am saying, because he WARNED US THAT; "THERE WOULD BE NO TREATY CHANGE AS A RESULT OF THIS DEAL".

ALEXANDER GRAF LAMBSDORFF - THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE EUROPEAN UNION
‘Cameron’s deal is NOT binding. At the moment, the whole thing is nothing more than a deal that has been hammered out down the local bazaar. The European Union, however, is a community of law, in which there are regulated responsibilities. If the British are going to put all their eggs in one basket, in a promise made like this, which has not yet complied with our clean process of law, then, for me, this process of law is more important and preferable.’

If this does not convince that you are all being scammed, let us see what other EU noteables have had to say:

FRANCOIS HOLLANDE - PRESIDENT OF FRANCE
"The 'Deal' is NOT binding. There were NO deviation from the European rules” and “NO exception to the rules of the single market”.

Hollande is adamant that Cameron's (non) concessions do not even require changes to existing EU treaties, but could be included in them “WHEN THERE IS A TREATY REVISION PROCEDURE ONE DAY, BUT THERE ARE NO REVISION OF THE TREATIES PLANNED".

ANDREW DUFF - PRESIDENT OF THE EUROPEAN FEDERALISTS
(And a former Member of the European Parliament for the East of England region of the UK) - [/U]
"As the personnel at the summit changes, which they do fairly frequently, the deal will become less authoritative, and may be amended, reversed or ignored.’"

[U]DOMINIQUE RIQUET - GROUP OF THE ALLIANCE OF LIBERALS AND DEMOCRATS FOR EUROPE & M.E.P.[/U]

Riquet and his colleagues are HOPING for a Brexit because: "Britain is a problematic member that blocks more rapid integration and political unification"

His friend, the Vice President of The European Union, Alexander Graf Lambsdorff, had this to say of Riquet's comments:

"The UK is an incredibly laborious member state. In this respect I do understand where Riquet and others that want progress in European integration are coming from and I know that the UK has sometimes blocked progress in that regard.’

Now, if Riquet and Lambsdorff and their EU cronies ALREADY view the UK as trouble causers and a hindrance to the rest of the EU - in other words, the rest of the EU is opposed to the AIMS of the UK within the EU - BEFORE THE CHANGES IN CAMERON'S SUPPOSED 'DEAL', then it is PATENTLY obvious that even IF Cameron's 'deal' WAS genuine, that these MEP's WILL VETO EVERYTHING IN IT.

That 'IF' is redundant though, because THERE IS NO DEAL TO RATIFY or for the other Member States to veto any of the terms contained therein.

"The current Heads of State or Government cannot guarantee the passage of treaty amendments that this deal proposes to be implemented in an unspecified time in the future.

Even if the Heads of Government could guarantee the passage of the proposed amendments, they could not guarantee their ratification. The Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties Article 61 states:

"A party may invoke the impossibility of performing a treaty as a ground for terminating or withdrawing from it if the impossibility results from the permanent disappearance or destruction of an object indispensable for the execution of the treaty."

There is no proposal to ratify a treaty before the referendum, in-fact it is not clear when treaty revision will occur, it will likely be years away. We will then be dealing with different Heads of Government and State, and a different European Council, they will be under no obligation to honour the agreement struck by their predecessors.

YOU ARE BEING CONNED

[joeysteele]

The EU has said this is binding,I have made a long comment on your other thread on your similar line to this one.

I will only repeat here with the same full and unreserved respect for your passion Kirk on the UK leaving the EU,which I think the result will be anyway now.

However with the whole World, not only the EU watching what happens in this referendum in the UK and the promise of the ratification of it ,with the already set in stone agreement and will of the other 27 EU member Nations.

I cannot see any way the EU would, or even would want to, alter one bit of the deal and I believe it will be ratified in full,after a 'remain' result and very quickly too.
On that I do trust David Cameron,he has in my view worked really hard on this issue.

[Livia]

If we come out of the EU - and I hope to God we do - then other countries will follow. That's my prediction.

[Suze]

Originally Posted by Livia

If we come out of the EU - and I hope to God we do - then other countries will follow. That's my prediction.

Ditto to this.

[joeysteele]

I personally do not think others will follow us out although I concede that is a possible.
I however have the feeling the EU is more likely to prosper with other Nations of the World, not only lining up to join but also to trade more with the EU such as the USA.

I am not even sure the break up of the EU would be a positive thing for us in the long run,and it for sure would have strong negative effects on the UK too whether we are in or out.
As indeed would, were the EU to really prosper once we were out, and then leave us lagging behind outside,unable to benefit.

Quite what all that would leave for the UK and the young, who are the future of the UK is uncertain.
Still not a gamble I am prepared to take with their futures.

Always 2 sides to all scenarios of course, both with risks but the EU has been there for over 20 years now and quite frankly.
I think and predict probably the likely thinking of most of the other EU Nations, were the UK to vote to leave.
Would in the end be a relief to them, that this Nation that sends anti EU MPs to the European parliament,signs up to just about everything but then moans near all the time is finally gone.

They may just take the view of now let us really make the EU work far better,get the reforms needed for that, with us watching and out in the cold.
Yes admittedly, standing on our own feet but in effect going really nowhere and having lost influence.
Certainly and no doubt doing okay too once out, if doing okay should just be enough for the UK and its future generations.

Yes indeed,the EU may fall apart or it may, as I think it will, be determined to come closer together, as the Nations in it were determined for it to be and was, before we joined the EEC over 40 years ago.

The World has changed in over 40 years,that is why I cannot see any other EU Nations wanting to take the irreversible risk we may on June 23rd.
I still think David Cameron's deal has given us the opportunity for an even more unique positive position in the EU,with all its faults, than we had already.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Livia

If we come out of the EU - and I hope to God we do - then other countries will follow. That's my prediction.

I second this! We just need to lead the way, I really hope we do. The thought of staying in is horrendous. Governed by bureaucrat's in a club that doesn't listen to us and thinks we are whining little Englanders.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I personally do not think others will follow us out although I concede that is a possible.
I however have the feeling the EU is more likely to prosper with other Nations of the World, not only lining up to join but also to trade more with the EU such as the USA.

I am not even sure the break up of the EU would be a positive thing for us in the long run,and it for sure would have strong negative effects on the UK too whether we are in or out.
As indeed would, were the EU to really prosper once we were out, and then leave us lagging behind outside,unable to benefit.

Quite what all that would leave for the UK and the young, who are the future of the UK is uncertain.
Still not a gamble I am prepared to take with their futures.

Always 2 sides to all scenarios of course, both with risks but the EU has been there for over 20 years now and quite frankly.
I think and predict probably the likely thinking of most of the other EU Nations, were the UK to vote to leave.
Would in the end be a relief to them, that this Nation that sends anti EU MPs to the European parliament,signs up to just about everything but then moans near all the time is finally gone.

They may just take the view of now let us really make the EU work far better,get the reforms needed for that, with us watching and out in the cold.
Yes admittedly, standing on our own feet but in effect going really nowhere and having lost influence.
Certainly and no doubt doing okay too once out, if doing okay should just be enough for the UK and its future generations.

Yes indeed,the EU may fall apart or it may, as I think it will, be determined to come closer together, as the Nations in it were determined for it to be and was, before we joined the EEC over 40 years ago.

The World has changed in over 40 years,that is why I cannot see any other EU Nations wanting to take the irreversible risk we may on June 23rd.
I still think David Cameron's deal has given us the opportunity for an even more unique positive position in the EU,with all its faults, than we had already.

Do you really, genuinely want to be part of the United States of Europe run by Germany? Or are you toeing the party line as a loyal follower of a political party? I'm not having a go at you here, I'm just curious.

I just can't imagine why anyone would want that, why did we fight two world wars for our freedom to give it away?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Do you really, genuinely want to be part of the United States of Europe run by Germany? Or are you toeing the party line as a loyal follower of a political party? I'm not having a go at you here, I'm just curious.

I just can't imagine why anyone would want that, why did we fight two world wars for our freedom to give it away?

I do not see it as United States of Europe but I would prefer to be closer to Europe anyway even moreso than the USA.

I have throughout all my time on tibb and the years before I was on tibb too, been a supporter of the EU, I have never wanted to leave and even didn't particularly want a referendum.

I am not anti foreigners or anti immigration in any way,I believe in coming together not separation.

It wouldn't really matter what party I belonged to on this issue as to toeing the party line,with me wanting to stay in,unless I was a UKIP or DUP in Northern ireland supporter.
Since all the other parties in Parliament are recommending as a block remaining in.

My mind was made up in my early teens,I just have heard nothing at all,( in this shameful and dreadful campaign from both sides), of substance to convince me that being out, the UK would do better or indeed even achieve the same as it is now.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I do not see it as United States of Europe but I would prefer to be closer to Europe anyway even moreso than the USA.

I have throughout all my time on tibb and the years before I was on tibb too, been a supporter of the EU, I have never wanted to leave and even didn't particularly want a referendum.

I am not anti foreigners or anti immigration in any way,I believe in coming together not separation.

It wouldn't really matter what party I belonged to on this issue as to toeing the party line,with me wanting to stay in,unless I was a UKIP or DUP in Northern ireland supporter.
Since all the other parties in Parliament are recommending as a block remaining in.

My mind was made up in my early teens,I just have heard nothing at all,( in this shameful and dreadful campaign from both sides), of substance to convince me that being out, the UK would do better or indeed even achieve the same as it is now.

Thanks for answering! I know we disagree on what we'd like to happen but you've been a very polite debatee and it's interesting to read your point of view.

For what it's worth I don't have anything against 'foriegners' either. I just think we should have a bit more control over who comes to this country than we have with the EU. For instance I believe if you have committed a murder in another country you shouldn't be able to walk through our borders. It also seems to be unfair that people coming from the EU should be treated differently to someone who wants to come from Africa or Australia also, that's discrimination.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Thanks for answering! I know we disagree on what we'd like to happen but you've been a very polite debatee and it's interesting to read your point of view.

For what it's worth I don't have anything against 'foriegners' either. I just think we should have a bit more control over who comes to this country than we have with the EU. For instance I believe if you have committed a murder in another country you shouldn't be able to walk through our borders. It also seems to be unfair that people coming from the EU should be treated differently to someone who wants to come from Africa or Australia also, that's discrimination.

I agree with all that absolutely jaxie.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

[/B]

I agree with all that absolutely jaxie.

But people who have committed murder in Europe have come here, and tragically committed murder here.

Those coming from Africa or Australia have to go through a points system, people from the EU don't so how can we achieve equality without some restrictions to EU immigration?

[Wizard.]

Of course it is flawed and ****ing hell if Dodgy Dave had so much power in the EU then why does it have the problems that it has today?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jaxie

But people who have committed murder in Europe have come here, and tragically committed murder here.

Those coming from Africa or Australia have to go through a points system, people from the EU don't so how can we achieve equality without some restrictions to EU immigration?

We cannot but I do honestly believe that I doubt in the end we will be able to restrict EU migration anyway even when out.

I really think the EU and most of the EU Nations, will expect and demand as a starting point for any meaningful trading deal with the EU, that the UK accepts still, the free movement of EU citizens.

I also believe,the govt and whoever is doing the negotiations, will in the end accept that to get some deal done as quickly as possible.

So, maybe ill advisedly, I hope for reform of that from the UK staying in, rather than leaving.

You are right it is wrong, however successive govts, (and Labour,I would agree, were to blame for likely the start of this), have failed to really address immigration and even begin to do anything about it, until now.

I really think for anyone voting and truly believing, that voting to leave will bring an end to EU free movement of citizens, are in the end going to be sorely and rightly angrily disappointed.

[Johnnyuk123]

This article clearly explains why the UK will get a much better deal outside of the EU.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ss-to-the-sin/

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Johnnyuk123

This article clearly explains why the UK will get a much better deal outside of the EU.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ss-to-the-sin/

Norman Lamont, the chancellor that oversaw our fiasco when we tried the euro and had to quit after 3 days

Forgive me if I don't treat him seriously

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I really think for anyone voting and truly believing, that voting to leave will bring an end to EU free movement of citizens, are in the end going to be sorely and rightly angrily disappointed.

Whilst we may disagree on how we intend to vote in this referendum, I agree with this ^ Brexit would leave EU immigration entirely unaffected because we'd be leaving the EU, not the EEA.
Look carefully at what Boris is saying because he's certainly not saying he will deal with mass immigration.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Whilst we may disagree on how we intend to vote in this referendum, I agree with this ^ Brexit would leave EU immigration entirely unaffected because we'd be leaving the EU, not the EEA.
Look carefully at what Boris is saying because he's certainly not saying he will deal with mass immigration.

The thing really is for me DemRed, that in truth there is a crossover of a lot that annoys both those advocating out and those advocating remaining in.
Many of the same things annoy both sides and there is no doubt in my mind both want the best for the UK.

Maybe I and all on the remain side will be proven wrong if we stay in and no reform comes as to those issues that concern both sides which is our hope, for faster and better reform of the EU as it stands.
It is just, for me anyway, I think we have a pretty good setup in the EU as to the UK and so would rather take that chance and stay with what I know and have seen,with hopefully minimal change.

However,leaving could also bring benefits,if we got the right deals all over the place, with the EU and around the World.
I have my doubts as to that and those deals but if the UK votes to leave, I will love to be proven wrong.

It has been a horrendous campaign and in my view whatever the decision is, in or out, for probably most of the voters their votes will not have come from an informed or comfortable position for them.

This near state of Utopia hoped for by 'leave' is all based on ifs and don't knows.
However it can be argued, nothing ventured nothing gained,as the saying goes, so who knows if that scenario will be achieved or not.

This announcement of an emergency budget today from a clearly rattled and desperate Chancellor,will only serve to disillusion people further too.
This question was asked by people a few weeks back but is even more relevant today, if he is in any way right.
If any govt knew that such dangers and chaos are likely from a leave result, then why be so irresponsible to hold a referendum in the first place.

A week to go,what will be will be I guess now.
I will have admired and supported the rights and passion of all on the 'leave' side just as I have appreciated the support and passion I have had with those on the 'remain' side.
From listening to people,I am myself now expecting a narrow result to 'leave' but I hope for the opposite.

Everyone has made good points from their own perspectives, and as to how they have come to, and made, the decisions on voting they have in the end.

[empire]

of course its a fraud, dodgy dave, and merkel the ottoman puppet, have given into turkey over free visas, and in turn, the turks will do jack all about stopping the refugee problem, and the whole vote is rigged for a remain, I can smell it, they are pushing the people into the arms of the far right,