[the truth]

Originally Posted by AProducer'sWetDream

It's nightmarish. The NHS has done so much for my family, it's saved my life, and is the thing that makes me most proud to be British.

yeap we need rid of the trusts we need to rid ourselves of the nhs cover ups we saw under new labour we need rid of the useless chief execs and we need doctors to work 4 day on day off shift patterns like evryone else

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

the people leading this disgusting revolt which will result in the deaths of 1000s of innocent people just to get the millionare doctors even more cash and time off at weekends need to be replaced asap...they are scum

[AProducer'sWetDream]

I love it when people take the time and effort to read my posts.

[Vicky.]

Being a regular at our NHS hospital over the past 2 years, I dread to think what would happen to me without it tbh. I would be dead in a gutter somewhere by now I assume. Which would suit the Tories quite well given I am currently not a taxpayer and am simply as sponge on society what with my disability and all :S

Most doctors are not millionaires either.

I stand behind them in everything, I owe them my life.

[Kizzy]

You and me both Vicky Nothing makes me feel more wretched and hopeless than the thought of the demise of the NHS it truly would be the end of Britain as we know it and the dawn of UK PLC.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You and me both Vicky Nothing makes me feel more wretched and hopeless than the thought of the demise of the NHS it truly would be the end of Britain as we know it and the dawn of UK PLC.

I know. I have had my own issues with the NHS (as most on here know) but even with that..I cannot stress how much we NEED it. Yes mistakes happen, mostly because of underfunding. I was looked after mainly by consultants. I was taken in on a Sunday. I had my surgery on a Monday. I was nearly dead on the Wednesday while they were trying to free up my bed for some other poor sod who needed help. Yes I am bitter about my treatment that one time. But I know for damn sure that without the NHS and the endless appointments and such I have been given, I would be a lot worse off than I am now.

Funnily enough, with me being taken in on a Sunday, the fact that my operation went so wrong would have counted towards Hunts figures bent to makeout weekend care is so horrendous...despite my problems being through the week..

[the truth]

we pay a fortune for the nhs so it should be good....the weekend service is sub standard in many hospitals has been for decades...you can barely be scanned at weekends, in fact they dont even do swallow tests of oaps at weekends in many hospitals who are simply on the drip and not fed .......its not simply down to the money its the way they are run and the waste on these endless trust board staff...the nhs also fails to claim private insurance against many of its care bills. which is insane. if a patient has private care insurance to be cared for at home....that should cover as much as possible of the costs and the nhs should cover the rest. just common sense. this current strike is moronic too....the nhs should pump way more money into scanning people earlier, this would save way more saved costs on bed blocking and unnecessary pills and worsening health....scan immediately, get results straight away, diagnose quickly...then treat the problem. the nhs is run far more inefficiently than it need be...yes were all grateful it saves lives and does many great things, just as churches do many great things saving lives and feeidng the starving milllions. but that doesnt mean we should urgently address its failings, which are not all down to money. but more to do with commmon sense, organization, prioritizing....id draw up an nhs constitution too...to keep hearst and minds focused. at least the government and nhs seems to have gotten on top of the mrsa epidemic

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by AProducer'sWetDream

Pssst... they already do .

Put simply Hunt has promised the country that he will 'deliver a seven day NHS', meaning more non-emergency services will be available on the weekend. However, he wants to do this without spending any extra money. He's therefore decided to sretch the current resources more thinly over seven days rather than five, creating a situation where junior doctors (at the moment, other health professionals will likely be next) are overworked and overtired. This isn't safe. Tired doctors make mistakes, and unlike employees of other massive organisations, when doctors make mistakes, it costs lives.

Excellently put and well said.

This is it in a nutshell, it has always been the Junior Doctors arguments on this issue.
It is this govt that will 'not' listen seriously to their concerns on the matter.

I, from talking to my family who are Junior Doctors have said this many times on here too.
Sadly it does seem to be heading to the case where people and this govt would be happy to lose Doctors, otherwise they would be going all out to make sure 'all' of them were happy and to keep them.

If people now go against the Junior Doctors and then those Doctors leave the Country to work where they would be really appreciated, it will no good regretting that, if they are gone and this contract is wrongly imposed on the ones left in the English NHS,
Only the English NHS that is,as no new contracts are being imposed anywhere else in the UK.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Being a regular at our NHS hospital over the past 2 years, I dread to think what would happen to me without it tbh. I would be dead in a gutter somewhere by now I assume. Which would suit the Tories quite well given I am currently not a taxpayer and am simply as sponge on society what with my disability and all :S

Most doctors are not millionaires either.

I stand behind them in everything, I owe them my life.

I do too Vicky.
I also know how really hard they work too.

[bitontheslide]

this has everything to do with self entitlement, nothing to do with patient care

[Cherie]

One million cancelled outpatients appointments, 125,000 procedures cancelled, it's too extreme

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Cherie

One million cancelled outpatients appointments, 125,000 procedures cancelled, it's too extreme

Really Cherie I agree that sounds bad on paper,however there are a massive number of outpatients appointments not kept by the people they are given to too.
Which also creates a backlog, not just in catching up with those missed appointments by giving new ones but also for others waiting for appointments.
Doctors time being wasted on waiting for people who do not turn up.

I have to say for me for one, the only 'extreme' thing as to this whole issue is the govts stubborn intention to 'impose' this contract on the Junior Doctors.
At a single stroke, the threat of that being removed would end any intent of any action at all.

The govt actually should be working fully with 'all' Doctors and medical staff in England, as to plans for any needed improvements, not sitting there endlessly dictating to them.

[Livia]

I've had the misfortune to experience the NHS quite a lot this year, with my mother's run of ill-health. It's a shambles. And for those who say the NHS is 24/7, you are sadly mistaken. Don't expect to see a doctor or get ANY kind of decision from a doctor over the weekend because it won't happen. There are plenty of doctors in casualty but don't expect one on the wards over the weekend unless it's a dire emergency, even in a stroke ward. No Physios or Occupational Therapists are available over the weekend so all progress stops for two days. And since my mother has been home she'll be visited by a district nurse in the morning to do one procedure and another in the afternoon to do something else. They waste money hand over fist. Someone needs to get hold of the NHS and teach them how to budget because right now it is run by what seems to be a bunch of happy amateurs and it's a very sad state of affairs for such a brilliant institution.

The junior doctors need to think about how they are perceived now and how else they can get their message across. At the start of this they had public backing, but the series of strikes coming up will, I predict, end that support.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

I've had the misfortune to experience the NHS quite a lot this year, with my mother's run of ill-health. It's a shambles. And for those who say the NHS is 24/7, you are sadly mistaken. Don't expect to see a doctor or get ANY kind of decision from a doctor over the weekend because it won't happen. There are plenty of doctors in casualty but don't expect one on the wards over the weekend unless it's a dire emergency, even in a stroke ward. No Physios or Occupational Therapists are available over the weekend so all progress stops for two days. And since my mother has been home she'll be visited by a district nurse in the morning to do one procedure and another in the afternoon to do something else. They waste money hand over fist. Someone needs to get hold of the NHS and teach them how to budget because right now it is run by what seems to be a bunch of happy amateurs and it's a very sad state of affairs for such a brilliant institution.

The junior doctors need to think about how they are perceived now and how else they can get their message across. At the start of this they had public backing, but the series of strikes coming up will, I predict, end that support.

Well you are not going to get physios and OTs with this imposition of this contract and in fact, you once indicated you were against solidly the imposition of this contract, calling it as I recall another nail in the Tories coffin at the time then.
Now with some escalation of action and yet still the imposition of this atrocious contract, you say the Doctors may lose support.

All this contract is going to do is create 'more' tired Doctors, not really help at all, and the added anger at anything 'imposed' will make things worse.

I know of many people who have now had scans done on a Sunday morning and you even state in your own post,any emergency care is in fact there at weekends if needed by Doctors.

What is needed is more of the social care aspect where many who are in hospital can be at home, hospital really should only be for emergency and ongoing needed observed care.
The imposition of this contract will do nothing to address that issue of vitally needed care and support for those out of hospital who do not really need to be in hospital,nor will it as to physios or Occupational Therapists, this contract only applies to Junior Doctors, not those groups.

It is trust managers for me,who should be the ones looked at,with their seemingly endless number of 'clipboard' staff walking round the place, contributing not a thing to hands on care.

Any govt. imposing unwanted and considered dangerous contracts on to top professionals who already know their duty and are overworked now,never mind under this contract, will help nothing and cause more disillusionment and loss of good Doctors as to and in the NHS.

It is your govt that is insisting on the imposing of this contract and I repeat again, the threat of imposing it being removed would stop any future action being taken immediately by all Doctors.

It is time this Health secretary, (as well as his predecessor Lansley should have too),learned how to talk to people and not at them.
This PM by leaving Hunt in place left the confrontation door wide open again as to this issue.
His smug and dismissive attitude causing more problems than it will ever solve in my view.

If I were a junior Doctor, I would do what my Cousins have and are doing, just leave, then go where I would be treated with appreciation and not be dictated to.
If you think that is right and the Doctors should lose support for that stance, I think that's unfair.
Also just why should Doctors in England have a contract imposed on them, when elsewhere in the UK such is not being done.

The Junior Doctors never just had selective support from me,they had and still have all my support.
It is his govt that has brought the situation to this point not the Doctors because of its refusal to remove the imposing of this contract on them.

Preferring to dictate to Doctors rather than work with them. you may possibly find that admirable,I never will and I hope others do not too and stick with giving support to the Junior Doctors over this shocking and unnecessary govt. policy.

[smudgie]

So, I have to wonder why the doctors, or their union have backtracked on the 18th May agreement with ACAS..
They had agreed to this contract, could it possibly be that with a new PM at the helm they thought they would chance their arm? Quite mystifying really.
I also rely greatly on the NHS to keep me going, but I am afraid I am losing sympathy for the junior doctors that decided to strike, the way they are trying to hold the country to ransom, at the risk of their patients is disgusting.
I really do think it will do them more harm than good, it is the ones that haven't voted to strike that I feel sorry for.

[Toy Soldier]

The NHS will fall and the (let me be blunt) ****ing idiots who have bought into the Tory-designed orchestration of its demise will not only not care, they will cheer. Until they get cancer 30 years later, and their family ends up living in crippling debt at the hands of a US-style private healthcare system. If they can afford anything beyond the most basic treatment, at all. And then they'll rage into the sky, "This is wrong! Why is it like this?? Healthcare should be for everyone!" but it won't be and they will die.

The NHS is not destroying itself. Junior Doctors are not destroying the NHS. Nurses aren't. Patients aren't. Even the NHS bureaucrats (although yes there are too many penpushers) aren't destroying the NHS.

The Tories are deliberately and systematically sabotaging the NHS so that it can be dismantled for personal profit. And that is the whole story. This is obvious, there is abundant evidence (and no I'm not going to spoonfeed it to you, don't be ****ing lazy), and yet people still just aren't getting it. And won't get it, until it's too late. Or probably at all. They'll get their cancer in 30 years and say "Waaah we used to have the NHS but those Junior Doctors ruined everything!", because people will buy whatever bull**** is crammed into their slavering mush.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by smudgie

So, I have to wonder why the doctors, or their union have backtracked on the 18th May agreement with ACAS..
They had agreed to this contract, could it possibly be that with a new PM at the helm they thought they would chance their arm? Quite mystifying really.
I also rely greatly on the NHS to keep me going, but I am afraid I am losing sympathy for the junior doctors that decided to strike, the way they are trying to hold the country to ransom, at the risk of their patients is disgusting.
I really do think it will do them more harm than good, it is the ones that haven't voted to strike that I feel sorry for.

The BMA talking to the govt thought a way forward had been found, however in the vote afterwards the Junior Doctors themselves voted against this contract and its imposition.

Long before a new PM was in place or possibly likely.

So what should Junior Doctors do, the public have as a majority supported them saying this is wrong and the contract should not be imposed.
The leading medics say it is wrong.
Consultants say the imposition is wrong.

Most other Parties in Parliament think it is wrong, even UKIP said it should not be just imposed.

However this govt. says it should and that it will do so, listening to no one.
yet now some are not attacking the govt here, while at the same time saying the Junior Doctors are holding the Country to ransom.

When near all except the govt,are saying the same thing yet this govt refuses to listen and step back, only from the imposing of this contract forcibly.
What are the Junior Doctors to do, just carry on and say this contract is dangerous but lie back and take it.

No Doctor wants to withhold his or her care but if no one in govt is listening to them what do they do.
The only other option for them other than striking, is to actually leave the English NHS completely.
If people would prefer that to happen, then what kind of NHS would England have then.

If anyone is forcing this action and patients being disrupted, it is in fact the govt who have made a massive mess of this not only for years but even moreso now with its stubborn dictatorial attitude towards this contract.
How the govt and Hunt particularly are now getting any support is beyond me for their total ignorance.

If any Junior Doctor now asked me if I thought they were right to strike,I would say yes, adding at the same time but you would be better telling this govt what to do with its contract and give notice,go to other areas of the UK or other Nations where their work will be eagerly greeted and they will be fully appreciated for the skills they have.
Because public opinion here, ('not all' ),can be selective, fair weathered friend like only, from a good number and only when it suits them too.

[AProducer'sWetDream]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The NHS will fall and the (let me be blunt) ****ing idiots who have bought into the Tory-designed orchestration of its demise will not only not care, they will cheer. Until they get cancer 30 years later, and their family ends up living in crippling debt at the hands of a US-style private healthcare system. If they can afford anything beyond the most basic treatment, at all. And then they'll rage into the sky, "This is wrong! Why is it like this?? Healthcare should be for everyone!" but it won't be and they will die.

The NHS is not destroying itself. Junior Doctors are not destroying the NHS. Nurses aren't. Patients aren't. Even the NHS bureaucrats (although yes there are too many penpushers) aren't destroying the NHS.

The Tories are deliberately and systematically sabotaging the NHS so that it can be dismantled for personal profit. And that is the whole story. This is obvious, there is abundant evidence (and no I'm not going to spoonfeed it to you, don't be ****ing lazy), and yet people still just aren't getting it. And won't get it, until it's too late. Or probably at all. They'll get their cancer in 30 years and say "Waaah we used to have the NHS but those Junior Doctors ruined everything!", because people will buy whatever bull**** is crammed into their slavering mush.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6865306.html

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The NHS will fall and the (let me be blunt) ****ing idiots who have bought into the Tory-designed orchestration of its demise will not only not care, they will cheer. Until they get cancer 30 years later, and their family ends up living in crippling debt at the hands of a US-style private healthcare system. If they can afford anything beyond the most basic treatment, at all. And then they'll rage into the sky, "This is wrong! Why is it like this?? Healthcare should be for everyone!" but it won't be and they will die.

The NHS is not destroying itself. Junior Doctors are not destroying the NHS. Nurses aren't. Patients aren't. Even the NHS bureaucrats (although yes there are too many penpushers) aren't destroying the NHS.

The Tories are deliberately and systematically sabotaging the NHS so that it can be dismantled for personal profit. And that is the whole story. This is obvious, there is abundant evidence (and no I'm not going to spoonfeed it to you, don't be ****ing lazy), and yet people still just aren't getting it. And won't get it, until it's too late. Or probably at all. They'll get their cancer in 30 years and say "Waaah we used to have the NHS but those Junior Doctors ruined everything!", because people will buy whatever bull**** is crammed into their slavering mush.

Absolutely right TS.
It will be Junior Doctors who either leave or fail to make a success of this contract who will be blamed for all that goes wrong in the NHS after the imposing of this contract by some, never this rotten shameless govt.

The NHS staff are still struggling with coming to terms with the top down re-organisation done after 2011, that few wanted and Cameron and the Conservatives said was never going to take place.

The govt. getting away with that too.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Absolutely right TS.
It will be Junior Doctors who either leave or fail to make a success of this contract who will be blamed for all that goes wrong in the NHS after the imposing of this contract by some, never this rotten shameless govt.

The NHS staff are still struggling with coming to terms with the top down re-organisation done after 2011, that few wanted and Cameron and the Conservatives said was never going to take place.

The govt. getting away with that too.

So many don't take the time to peak beneath the curtain though Joey... All they see is the illusion that's created. For every one who sees it there are ten or more who never will... So it will sadly never change.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The NHS will fall and the (let me be blunt) ****ing idiots who have bought into the Tory-designed orchestration of its demise will not only not care, they will cheer. Until they get cancer 30 years later, and their family ends up living in crippling debt at the hands of a US-style private healthcare system. If they can afford anything beyond the most basic treatment, at all. And then they'll rage into the sky, "This is wrong! Why is it like this?? Healthcare should be for everyone!" but it won't be and they will die.

The NHS is not destroying itself. Junior Doctors are not destroying the NHS. Nurses aren't. Patients aren't. Even the NHS bureaucrats (although yes there are too many penpushers) aren't destroying the NHS.

The Tories are deliberately and systematically sabotaging the NHS so that it can be dismantled for personal profit. And that is the whole story. This is obvious, there is abundant evidence (and no I'm not going to spoonfeed it to you, don't be ****ing lazy), and yet people still just aren't getting it. And won't get it, until it's too late. Or probably at all. They'll get their cancer in 30 years and say "Waaah we used to have the NHS but those Junior Doctors ruined everything!", because people will buy whatever bull**** is crammed into their slavering mush.

[Cherie]

They will lose support if they carry on with 5 day strikes, this is playing right into the governments hands. I'm not sure how well supported these strikes will be even by the junior doctors themselves

[bitontheslide]

the junior doctors are effectively withholding care from patients, which is something that totally contradicts what being a doctor stands for. Just wait till the stories come out of all the affected patients, when no-one has any respect for them.

Disgusting behaviour by the doctors in my opinion.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

I've had the misfortune to experience the NHS quite a lot this year, with my mother's run of ill-health. It's a shambles. And for those who say the NHS is 24/7, you are sadly mistaken. Don't expect to see a doctor or get ANY kind of decision from a doctor over the weekend because it won't happen. There are plenty of doctors in casualty but don't expect one on the wards over the weekend unless it's a dire emergency, even in a stroke ward. No Physios or Occupational Therapists are available over the weekend so all progress stops for two days. And since my mother has been home she'll be visited by a district nurse in the morning to do one procedure and another in the afternoon to do something else. They waste money hand over fist. Someone needs to get hold of the NHS and teach them how to budget because right now it is run by what seems to be a bunch of happy amateurs and it's a very sad state of affairs for such a brilliant institution.

The junior doctors need to think about how they are perceived now and how else they can get their message across. At the start of this they had public backing, but the series of strikes coming up will, I predict, end that support.

How will ending the junior doctors strike provide physios or OTs on a weekend? Your mother receives two home visits a day that is a fantastic level of care of which many would be over the moon with.
I'm wondering if what she has done is something family could help with? it would free up a valuable visit.

[AProducer'sWetDream]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

the junior doctors are effectively withholding care from patients, which is something that totally contradicts what being a doctor stands for. Just wait till the stories come out of all the affected patients, when no-one has any respect for them.

Disgusting behaviour by the doctors in my opinion.

But they are protecting patients in the long run. If this contract is imposed, patients will be much less safe.