[bitontheslide]

I don't take notice of Miley unless it is for her acting or singing, at which point I judge her on her particular performance. Similarly, I wouldn't be interested in what a weather man had to say on the economy. One persons opinion or thoughts on a subject are just that, nothing more, nothing less

[Withano]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I am grossly offended by your uncalled for allegations that this thread perpetuates 'rape culture' AND your allusions that I am some 'menalist with an agenda' because there is NOTHING which I have written that would justify such disgusting comments.

You see Withano - your posts seem full of anger, perhaps because you detest Trump with a vengeance, but with blind hatred, objectivity is all too often lost.

You are NOT really addressing the points which I am ACTUALLY making in my posts, but more rather addressing what you THINK I am saying in my posts, and I believe that is because you have lost emotional detachment because of the subject matter.

You need to calm down, read and absorb what I am saying, and not allow your own prejudices to superimpose what you angrily feel I am saying onto my actual words.

I have NEVER posted to court popularity, only posted what I believe, and I have all too often been unfairly 'hung, drawn, and quartered' on here as a result.

But I am a great believer in ALL aspects of Freedom - Freedom Of Speech AND Freedom of Choice being two very important types.

I have the Freedom of Speech to open a thread on any subject I want to, and you have The Freedom of Choice NOT to subscribe to it.

I suggest Withano, if this thread upsets you so much, and you deem it so "fecking stupid" and "grim", then do not subscribe to it.

As it stands 100% of people posting here have taken an issue with or disregarded your words, perhaps you need to reread them and think about what message you're trying to convey and what message youve actually conveyed. My 'hatred' of Trump has little to do with your grim little thread regardless of how you try to defend it. (I dont care for him enough to hate him, he'll be irrelevant again by december)

[Jessica.]

I'm really disappointed in you, Kirk.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Withano

As it stands 100% of people posting here have taken an issue with or disregarded your words, perhaps you need to reread them and think about what message you're trying to convey and what message youve actually conveyed. My 'hatred' of Trump has little to do with your grim little thread regardless of how you try to defend it. (I dont care for him enough to hate him, he'll be irrelevant again by december)

This 'grim little thread' seems to have a great attraction for you though doesn't it? What is this, your 6th post on here?

I do not worry about how many members 'take issue' with what I write - that is their prerogative on a forum, and I have already stated that I do not falsely post B.S. to be popular, only what I BELIEVE to be true.

Perhaps others who may AGREE with my view dare not post for fear of losing 'friends' and becoming 'unpopular'?

It DOES happen quite regularly on here.

I REALLY could not give a toss about Donald Trump per se but I DO care about the unfairness and injustice in that big old real world, and I will post whenever I see deliberate and unfair forces at work in the US Presidential race - just the same as I have always done on other threads.

I saw an internet article last week about Yoko Ono supposedly owning up to having an affair with Hilary Clinton, but I did a little research and concluded that the article was politically motivated B.S to discredit Clinton.

I was about to post on that, but some other member beat me to it.

You think what you want, but stop getting so personal with me.

Oh, and better cut out of this 'grim' thread now before I continue posting on what I believe is more unfair politically motivated B.S. allegations against Trump.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

I'm really disappointed in you, Kirk.

I'm sorry Jessica, really I am, but I am only presenting what I see as the Truth.

There is a covert political campaign of lies and false allegations to discredit Trump, and NO Presidential or other election should be won in such a way.

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I'm sorry Jessica, really I am, but I am only presenting what I see as the Truth.

There is a covert political campaign of lies and false allegations to discredit Trump, and NO Presidential or other election should be won in such a way.

A person like that deserves every bit of backlash and truthful public allegation against him. If you can't see any reason for that then you're a lost cause.

[Maru]

Is this thread specifically about Miley Cyrus or sexual assault victims? Where is the comparison being made?

The very IDEA that some avaricious, fame-desperate women without morals will FREELY allow perverts to grope them and grab their pussies and breasts and private parts. It's 'sexual assault' whether those women were complicit or not.

If it's just this point, then I don't really agree. It's consensual contact akin to an exotic dancer imo.

[Mokka]

Originally Posted by Maru

Is this thread specifically about Miley Cyrus or sexual assault victims? Where is the comparison being made?

This

The next thing we will be hearing is that if Miley Cyrus did get sexually attacked by a fan... this is proof she asked for it

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Mokka

This

The next thing we will be hearing is that if Miley Cyrus did get sexually attacked by a fan... this is proof she asked for it

If this thread were about Madonna grabbing her fans tops on-stage and exposing bare breasts, we might have a topic, but I think in this case Miley Cyrus is pretty much as-advertised so no wrong no foul...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Maru

Is this thread specifically about Miley Cyrus or sexual assault victims? Where is the comparison being made?



If it's just this point, then I don't really agree. It's consensual contact akin to an exotic dancer imo.

Can you clarify just what part of my posts you are not agreeing with Maru please?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Mokka

This

The next thing we will be hearing is that if Miley Cyrus did get sexually attacked by a fan... this is proof she asked for it

I did not expect this from you Mokka, and nowhere in any thread ever, have I posted anything to warrant anyone posting such a comment.

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Can you clarify just what part of my posts you are not agreeing with Maru please?

So if you are not making any points for or against anyone, why did you make this thread? You clearly have some kind of bias against people who disagree with that disgusting man, so please make a point if you are so bothered by everyone making assumptions.

[Mokka]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Can you clarify just what part of my posts you are not agreeing with Maru please?

The premise Kirk....that there is any correlation between Miley's on stage dance routine.... and women who are coming forward to accuse Donald Trump of sexual assault.
Miley is a singer songwriter....not a presidential candidate. No one wants to see her running the country either.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Can you clarify just what part of my posts you are not agreeing with Maru please?

Aside from what I specifically quoted, I'm not sure what the point/where the comparison being made is. Are there alleged Trump victims who have come out to say that they consented to being touched? Were there even stories to suggest this may have been the case? (if even for part of the incident)

I'm totally on board with the idea that there are women in the professional world who send mixed signals (engage in idle flirtation) with male admirers in order to move up the chain... happens everyday, but I don't know where Miley Cyrus falls in that category. She is performing on-stage with thousands of people (and witnesses). She can't come back later and go "Well I didn't really want to be groped and actually, I didn't enjoy it either!"

[Ammi]

...(in fairness to Kirk..)...I actually think that I can see where you're coming from with this, Kirk...that if Miley would use sexual assault against females and what Trump said then where is her moral compass because she's just 'feeding' the same thing as Trump is and trivialising sexual assault...(which is what you believe that it was said to further a career and for personal attention..)...I just think it's a little off base to equate...Trumps whole position now is capitalising on his own celebrity and his own self gain in his controversy his celebrity has given him...I don't think for one moment that he would be where he is now and a strong contender for Presidency had he been guy on the street and unknown anti establishment....but he's fed so many negatives and prejudices, nurtured them and encouraged them for his own gain and his own power in that gain...

Originally Posted by Withano

As it stands 100% of people posting here have taken an issue with or disregarded your words, perhaps you need to reread them and think about what message you're trying to convey and what message youve actually conveyed. My 'hatred' of Trump has little to do with your grim little thread regardless of how you try to defend it. (I dont care for him enough to hate him, he'll be irrelevant again by december)

..I don't agree Withano..(sadly..)..I don't think that the prejudice and negative feelings through exploiting fears in people can just subside like that, it's not really how I see it works anyway....once surfaced, these things can't be controlled and don't just disappear...that's the difference with Trump...win or lose, he's left a legacy of intolerance and prejudice that won't just go with him (I fear..)...whereas if Hilary loses, then no more establishment ... for another 4 years anyway...the establishment legacy that she represents will diminish for at least a short term...his is far more far reaching in what's evoked in some through their fears and frustrations....

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't agree Withano..(sadly..)..I don't think that the prejudice and negative feelings through exploiting fears in people can just subside like that, it's not really how I see it works anyway....once surfaced, these things can't be controlled and don't just disappear...that's the difference with Trump...win or lose, he's left a legacy of intolerance and prejudice that won't just go with him (I fear..)...whereas if Hilary loses, then no more establishment ... for another 4 years anyway...the establishment legacy that she represents will diminish for at least a short term...his is far more far reaching in what's evoked in some through their fears and frustrations....

This I very much agree with. If Hilary wins this time round and the establishment don't learn their lesson, then its just storing up issues for the next election. As abhorrent as Trump is, it could be someone worse next time. The bottom line, ignore voters at your peril.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I'm sorry Jessica, really I am, but I am only presenting what I see as the Truth.

There is a covert political campaign of lies and false allegations to discredit Trump, and NO Presidential or other election should be won in such a way.

The campaign is no longer covert after Trump decided to mention Bill Clintons name and rape in he same sentence at the 2nd debate. What exactly did Trump expect after that? As for Lies and false allegation - where do we start with Trump? An interviewer recently said that during interviews with Trump they should stop the interview every 30 seconds and just say 'But Mr Trump you're lying' chances are he will be.

There is no comparison between these two scenarios.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...(in fairness to Kirk..)...I actually think that I can see where you're coming from with this, Kirk...that if Miley would use sexual assault against females and what Trump said then where is her moral compass because she's just 'feeding' the same thing as Trump is and trivialising sexual assault...(which is what you believe that it was said to further a career and for personal attention..)...I just think it's a little off base to equate...Trumps whole position no is capitalising on his on celebrity and his own self gain in his controversy his celebrity has given him...I don't think for one moment that he would be where he is now and a strong contender for Presidency had he been guy on the street and unknown anti establishment....but he's fed so many negatives and prejudices, nurtured them and encouraged them for his own gain and his own power in that gain...

Yeah, if there is a comparison to be made, it's between Miley and Trump. He fed into male stereotypes of male ego and popular chauvinistic attitudes and activities of the time to control those around him...

I don't approve of female celebrities grabbing onto other fans in a sexual manner--consensual or not--because as it were, a man grabbing onto a fan in that manner--consensual or not--would go over very poorly. I just don't think it sets a good example... I understand female empowerment and all that crap, but it's not right to hold a man to an elevated standard of decency and yet a woman is not held to the same standard... that's not equality.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Mokka

The premise Kirk....that there is any correlation between Miley's on stage dance routine.... and women who are coming forward to accuse Donald Trump of sexual assault.
Miley is a singer songwriter....not a presidential candidate. No one wants to see her running the country either.

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

This I very much agree with. If Hilary wins this time round and the establishment don't learn their lesson, then its just storing up issues for the next election. As abhorrent as Trump is, it could be someone worse next time. The bottom line, ignore voters at your peril.

[Mokka]

What my issue with this thread is...
Here is some footage of Miley doing something judged as inappropriate ... no one talked to the people who's hands were in the air to find out if they felt violated or not... and she has not been outwardly accused of sexual assault by her fans.

But because we have this footage....it discredits her opinion on Trump. That is why I said it equates to in a court, her past sexual conduct discrediting her testimony....as happens to many women of sexual assault.
I adore you as a person Kirk... but you and I will never see eye to eye on Trump. I disagree with 99% of your views on him.... but I have never said you aren't entitled to your opinion... and I wouldn't look through the history of your life to find dirt on you to suggest you aren't entitled to any opinion at all.

[kirklancaster]

I will respond to each and every one of you but it will take time, and I might as well continue what I started because no doubt, when I've done, I will have other outraged responses to answer too.

But first, I wish to clear up a few misunderstandings about EXACTLY what it is I am saying, and I'll start with Miley Cyrus.

Miley Cyrus is - in my opinion - is a 'Publicity *****' who will do or say ANYTHING which generates publicity, keeps her in the limelight and keep her Marquee Value up and those all important dollars rolling in.

I claim, that the outrageous things which she has done thus far off stage and on - in word and deed - have been done to shock, create notoriety and generate publicity for the above reasons.

I also claim, that she is cynically jumping on a 'bandwagon' in her anti-Trump stance for her own reasons, which is to increase her popularity by ingratiating herself with anti-Trump members of the public who aren't particularly fans of hers either, and to generate more publicity which keeps those dollars rolling in.

I claim the above, because of my perception of Miley Cyrus based upon what I have seen and read about her.

If you are a big fan of hers, you may see her differently, but I am not alone in my perceptions of her.

Perhaps, we should take a look, and let anyone who is NOT familiar with her, to judge for themselves whether she is just a singer performing a stage routine or if she is a cynical publicity hound, whose condemnation of Trump is genuine, or for the more cynical reasons which I claim:


"Miley Cyrus is undoubtedly one of the most talked about celebrities in Hollywood at the moment. The former Disney star has been making headlines for her strange behavior for the past year and a half. It all started when Miley discovered ‘twerking’ and decided she needed to show the world that she could twerk, over and over again. After that, Miley continued to shock everyone with her strange behavior and crazy antics. Each new Miley headline has seemingly been stranger than the last, and just when the world thinks, Ms. Cyrus couldn’t possibly shock anyone again, she does.

Here are some of the strangest things Miley Cyrus has done."

The Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky “Performance”

In February 2014, Miley Cyrus did the unthinkable to open up her Bangerz tour in Vancouver. The twenty-one year old, after performing ‘Party In the USA’ simulated giving oral sex to a backup dancer dressed up like Bill Clinton. The Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky scandal occurred in 1998, when Cyrus was only six years old. It’s not clear what point she was trying to make, or who even came up with the disturbing idea, but one thing is for sure; it was strange.

The Constant Crotch Grabs

Since the twenty-one year old kicked off her Bangerz tour on February 14th of this year, she has been photographed constantly grabbing her crotch. It appears the singer is trying to channel her ‘inner’ Michael Jackson and then some. The singer has also appeared to be masturbating during her performance of ‘Love, Party, Money.’ While sitting on the hood of a car, Cyrus rubbed her ‘hood’ – leaving the audience scratching their heads and wondering what exactly they were watching.

Her Wardrobe Choices

To go along with her strange behavior, Miley has paired many peculiar outfits with it. For her 2013 VMA performance, she started out wearing a Chucky Cheese-like-mouse costume. Partway through the performance, she removed it to reveal a matching, latex, nude underwear and bra – which was quite unflattering. The singer also wore a see through white mesh dress with black pasties and black underwear during another performance. No matter what she chooses to wear, one can expect it to be skimpy and that it’ll barely cover anything. This is a bit surprising considering Miley once stated in an interview with ELLE magazine, “A star is someone who doesn’t have to take her clothes off to be sexy, because you naturally have star power.” So, according to Miley, Miley isn’t a star?

The Katy Perry Kiss

In February 2014, when Miley was performing in Los Angeles, Katy Perry was sitting front row. Cyrus walked over to Katy and the two shared a kiss, that became very awkward, very fast. Perry seemingly went in for a peck, while Cyrus went in for much more, causing Katy to quickly pull away. While being interviewed on Australian TV about the kiss, Katy Perry explained how she was shocked when Miley offered up more than a peck, adding, “God knows where that tongue has been. We don’t know. That tongue is infamous!” Cyrus fired back at Katy via Twitter tweeting, “Girl if ur worried abt where tongues have been good thing ur ex boo is ur EX BOO cause we ALL know where THAT… been.” Ouch! The two continued to exchange insults and it doesn’t look like these girls are going to kiss and makeup anytime soon.

The Music Videos

‘We Can’t Stop’ was the first of Miley’s string of strange music videos. It was released on June of 2013 and was jam packed with weird moments, including: Miley making out with a Barbie, Miley wearing a grill, Miley twerking and Miley spanking other females. It was hard to tell if the video was artistic or not. The singer’s ‘Wrecking Ball’ music video was released in September of 2013 and the world couldn’t really make sense of it. The video featured the singer sitting naked on a wrecking ball swinging back and forth. Apparently, she’s just being Miley.

[CENTER]4) The Consumption of Fan’s Underwear

During her February 16th tour performance, a fan threw their thong up on stage, while Miley was singing. Instead of kicking it off stage or leaving it there, like any other person probably would have done. Miley did the inconceivable. She picked them up and put them in her mouth – Gross! It looks like Katy Perry got her answer on where Miley’s tongue has been.

The VMA Performance

When a person utters the words Miley Cyrus and VMA’s in the same sentence, everybody immediately thinks of her 2013 VMA performance with Robin Thicke. This performance was truly shocking and hard to watch. It was full of odd costumes, over the top sexual innuendo, a bizarre foam finger and twerking. Critics claim the young singer went beyond the realm of sexual suggestiveness and nearly entered the world of soft core porn. Miley made it perfectly clear that she cannot stop.

1) The Twerking

Twerking, an aggressive booty shaking dance that peaked in popularity in 2013 due to Miley Cyrus embracing it completely. A home video of Miley twerking in a Unicorn onesie went viral in March of 2013 and after that, the pop singer twerked her way all over the world. Cyrus twerked in her music videos, at the VMA’s, on tour, at Juicy J’s concert and anywhere else she had the room to bend over. Many have criticized Miley’s obsession with twerking, making comments on her “assets” and her race. Jay Z even dissed Cyrus in his song ‘SomeWhereInAmerica,’ when he rapped, “…they see I’m still putting work in, ’cause somewhereinamerica, Miley Cyrus is still twerkin’, ha! Twerk, twerk, twerk, twerk, twerk, Miley, Miley, twerk, twerk, twerk, Miley, Miley, Miley, twerk. Twerk, yeah, ugh-huh. Twerk, Miley, Miley, Miley — Only in America.” Apparently, Jay Z has 99 problems and Miley Cyrus twerking is one.

Now staying with Miley for now, I will claim:

1) Donald Trump by word - and allegedly now by deed - degrades women.

2) Donald Trump by some of his words and actions, is a person with a very low and warped sense of morality.

3) Miley Cyrus by word and deed degrades women.

4) Miley Cyrus by some of her words and deeds, is a person with a very low and warped sense of morality.

Trump is alleged to have committed 'sexual assault' on women though no evidence has yet been brought forward to substantiate these allegations.

Miley Cyrus DEFINITELY sexually assaulted Katy Perry by inserting her tongue into her mouth and throat without prior consent.

Miley Cyrus did not 'casually wander' into a fan's upraised hand during the video in my OP, she was static and the fan stroked Cyrus's crotch. According to the article, Cyrus also allowed fans to touch her breasts.

This is not deemed sexual assault if it was consensual.

According to Trump - if this was not just empty bragging on his part in front of the sycophantic Billy Bush - he was in the habit of kissing women and groping their private parts without their consent.

If this was a regular habit of his over the best part of half a century, given that he is 70 years old, and up to now, only 7 or 8 women have emerged to complain, then it would follow - in my logical mind - that in the case of those women who did not complain then, and have not complained now, then one must assume that there must be an awful lot of women who allowed Trump to kiss or grope them, thereby consenting by default, even allowing for any that may still be too timid to come forward.

In the case of any women who allowed Trump to grope them, or did not object after the fact, then it was consensual, and we need only concern ourselves with those who have come forward to complain.

Something which I hope to cover in the next post.

I any event, I do see correlation in Trump and Cyrus, and I do maintain that - unlike De Niro, Tom Hanks and others - Cyrus is cynically exploiting the Trump situation for her own ends.

[Jamie89]

If the thread is that Miley Cyrus is a publicity ***** then I couldn't agree more but where that all ties in with Trump is where I get confused as to the premise of the thread as well if I'm being honest Kirk. Because I don't see why that or anything else she's said or done would invalidate her opinion of him. If it's that you don't believe her opinion because she seems like a disingenuous person, and so all of her opinions are to be discredited, then that's one thing, and I'm all for a mass ignoring of her... but if it's that it's only sexual assault that she can't give an opinion on, then that's what's confusing because why specifically that? Because yes she promotes sexual contact but all of the examples of her are things that are consensual/have been staged so I'm not sure where the comparison is? I know you've stated in the thread that you're specifically talking about women who invite sexual contact but then that's really confusing too because that's not the issue Miley was talking about, it was Trumps attitude towards touching women who haven't given consent.

[Mokka]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

If the thread is that Miley Cyrus is a publicity ***** then I couldn't agree more but where that all ties in with Trump is where I get confused as to the premise of the thread as well if I'm being honest Kirk. Because I don't see why that or anything else she's said or done would invalidate her opinion of him. If it's that you don't believe her opinion because she seems like a disingenuous person, and so all of her opinions are to be discredited, then that's one thing, and I'm all for a mass ignoring of her... but if it's that it's only sexual assault that she can't give an opinion on, then that's what's confusing because why specifically that? Because yes she promotes sexual contact but all of the examples of her are things that are consensual/have been staged so I'm not sure where the comparison is? I know you've stated in the thread that you're specifically talking about women who invite sexual contact but then that's really confusing too because that's not the issue Miley was talking about, it was Trumps attitude towards touching women who haven't given consent.

Once again... Jamie articulates what I am thinking much better then I could. Thanks for that.

And... might I add... Kirk, you are making much more of a tweet from Miley than even her fans or people who actually follow her would. If you are saying that she has political pull over people based on her status as a celebrity... I will laugh for days. No one is taking her political views on as their own... at least no member of the voting US electorate... that actually plan on voting.

And I am actually becoming ashamed for this thread based on your last post Kirk, and will not be frequenting it again

[Shaun]

How embarrassing.

[Johnnyuk123]

From what i can see from reading Kirk's detailed post is this ....
Miley Cyrus is the last person to be jumping onto the we hate trump wagon. Why is she jumping on it? To get the media attention, a point which Kirk clearly made and a point that i completely agree with 100%. Should she be taken seriously? No she should not. Will many of her fans take her seriously, sadly yes many will. She has a responsibility to her young fans IMO. Is there a single parent on the face of this earth that would let their child leave the house dressed like miley cyrus? or twerk on the playground just like their pop idol that they so admire and aspire to be like? Hell no!
So for me miley (look at me me me i'm naked again) cyrus needs to shut up cover up and start showing some respect to those very impressionable young fans of hers first before targeting a 70yr old man to get some free airtime.

Great post Kirk!