[Pete.]

Miley ended Trump

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

If the thread is that Miley Cyrus is a publicity ***** then I couldn't agree more but where that all ties in with Trump is where I get confused as to the premise of the thread as well if I'm being honest Kirk. Because I don't see why that or anything else she's said or done would invalidate her opinion of him. If it's that you don't believe her opinion because she seems like a disingenuous person, and so all of her opinions are to be discredited, then that's one thing, and I'm all for a mass ignoring of her... but if it's that it's only sexual assault that she can't give an opinion on, then that's what's confusing because why specifically that? Because yes she promotes sexual contact but all of the examples of her are things that are consensual/have been staged so I'm not sure where the comparison is? I know you've stated in the thread that you're specifically talking about women who invite sexual contact but then that's really confusing too because that's not the issue Miley was talking about, it was Trumps attitude towards touching women who haven't given consent.

I really do not think that I could explain what I mean any more clearly Jamie.

Yes, Cyrus is a publicity hound, and yes, I do not believe her comments on Trump have been made for any other reason than those which I have expounded - basically self-promotion and to ingratiate herself with the anti-Trump lobby for the same reason.

I also believe that Cyrus loses any credibility she may have had, when commenting on Trumps ALLEGED and as yet UNPROVEN sexual assaults by her own sexual assault on Katy Perry, and her other highly questionable behaviour.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...'she allowed' herself to be touched by her fans, she invited it if that's what she did in her Wrecking Ball tour...sexual assault is all about non-consensual intimate touching ...there is no comparison at all to 'I don't even wait, I just grab them..'..non whatsoever because it's all about inferring non-consent in what he said he practised with females because he was a star...there is just no explanation that would make that a right thing to say and not very worrying....

All of this too for me, he was bragging about doing it without any invite or consent at all from whoever may be his selected targets.
Massive difference, in my view anyway.

[Johnnyuk123]

I am also of the opinion that if this pop artist was a man parading around a stage in such a sexual manner in front of millions of young kids like she does all the time then the opinions of many would be very very different ones.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

All of this too for me, he was bragging about doing it without any invite or consent at all from whoever may be his selected targets.
Massive difference, in my view anyway.

Why don't you expound on your view Joey - as a solicitor - I would be interested to know what you think to 'Trial by Media'? of someone who has yet to be charged with any of these alleged sexual assaults, and what you think to allegation without evidence?

[Johnnyuk123]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Why don't you expound on your view Joey - as a solicitor - I would be interested to know what you think to 'Trial by Media'? of someone who has yet to be charged with any of these alleged sexual assaults, and what you think to allegation without evidence?

Remember what they did to Cliff Richard? Guilty as charged until proven innocent apparently... is this the new standard these days?

[Tom4784]

Miley is allowed an opinion and desperate attempts of slut shaming her isn't going to make her opinion any less valid. Again, there's a difference between her consenting to being touched and speaking out against sexual abuse, the fact that you think the two are mutually exclusive is troubling to say the least. It's not exactly a bandwagon to hate Trump, everybody that isn't either a racist, bigoted in someway or supporting him as a joke as though he's a gimmick act in X Factor (or. as I suspect in your case, supporting him because your friends do judging from your sudden change of heart) is against Trump. There are no pros to the idea of him being president, only VAST amounts of cons.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Why don't you expound on your view Joey - as a solicitor - I would be interested to know what you think to 'Trial by Media'? of someone who has yet to be charged with any of these alleged sexual assaults, and what you think to allegation without evidence?

Donald Trump's campaign plans to go 'buck wild' and paint Bill Clinton 'as Bill Cosby'

I heard the same thing being said on media outlets just before the 2nd debate. It looks like Clinton team got there first and are just better at this kind of thing.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Why don't you expound on your view Joey - as a solicitor - I would be interested to know what you think to 'Trial by Media'? of someone who has yet to be charged with any of these alleged sexual assaults, and what you think to allegation without evidence?

Actually Kirk, and you should know this anyway from my anger at the treatment of Cliff Richard as to the media.

I hate trial by media and while you are right he has not been charged with anything, 'yet', and possibly may of course never be.
However we all heard he himself state in his own words that he has done this and acted this way, even towards married Women too, not that being married or single as any relevance
So by his own mouth he admits doing or showed intent on doing same.
As to evidence or lack of it, well he himself stated he did this,if he was being honest about that, little more as to more evidence other than victims coming forward are needed.

If he was only bragging to seem big and supposedly clever, then he has failed on both counts and only looks really disgusting for even publicly thinking that way and expressing same.
He also actually looks rather stupid too, if he was not being serious, again in my view.

The point still is, he claims to have done this without Womens consent or even knowledge,
A far cry from Miley Cyrus inviting it at a stage performance.

[LeatherTrumpet]

To think he actually grabbed a, woman by the pussy (as if you some how could) is as pathetic as the statement

[James]

Even if you think Miley Cyrus has double standards, that can't be used as a defence for Trump, because, ultimately Miley's (or any celebrity's) opinion is just one voice, and everyone can make up their own minds.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

To think he actually grabbed a, woman by the pussy (as if you some how could) is as pathetic as the statement

Depends. Is said pussy fat with lots of baggy folds?

[kirklancaster]

I have genuinely been 'taken aback' by some of the hostile and very personal reaction on here just because I am honestly proffering a different view - something which is the very purpose of a forum surely?

Perhaps, I should merely start posting statements which I do not believe but which I know will be popular?

Sorry, I cannot do that.

Nothing is Black and White in this world, and I find it greatly ironic, that some of those who are the most vociferous in decrying the Media when the target may be Corbyn or an appeal to the Electorate to vote for Brexit, are the first to succumb without question to the Media when its target is Trump -- a man whom they detest anyway.

Well, sorry, I cannot help questioning.

So while some of my former friends on here are digesting what I have already written, or vomiting because of it, I will move on to the real reason why I started this thread - the witnesses proper, or Plaintiffs as it soon may be.

Summer Zervos

Zervos was on the fifth season of the The Apprentice in 2006.

She appeared at a press conference in Los Angeles on Friday the 14th of October 2016, with her Attorney - Gloria Allred - and alleged that during her time on the Apprentice (2006), Trump had lured her to his bungalow and sexually assaulted her:

"He put me in an embrace and I tried to push him away. I pushed his chest to put space between us and I said, 'Come on man, get real.' He repeated my words back to me, 'Get real,' as he began thrusting his genitals."

Well, that is version 1 which has been reported.

Here's version 2. :

In this reported version, Zervos claimed at the press conference that Donald Trump groped her during an employment meeting in 2007.

Ms Zervos claims that she contacted Mr Trump regarding an employment opportunity and was denied a meeting over lunch. She was then asked to meet him at his hotel in Beverly Hills.

She says that when she arrived, he kissed her on the lips and he said he’d love to work with her. He asked her to lie down on the bed and that he began “thrusting his genitals." She says that she made it clear that she was turning down his advances and he eventually began discussing business with her.

“As I was about to leave, he again kissed me on the lips,” Ms Zervos explained. “This made me feel nervous and embarrassed this is not what I wanted or expected.”

One year apart, different locations and one sexual assault committed by Trump whilst she was voluntarily lying on the bed which Trump had asked her to do.

A strange request and even stranger compliance given that it was a 'business meeting' which she had attended for, and that Trump had already kissed her on the lips without permission.

Also very strange how Zervos allowed herself to be maneuvered into the bedroom after already being kissed by Trump without consent, for one would presume that a man like Trump does not reside in one room bedsit type hotel accommodation.

It must be borne in mind that this was no timid country girl fresh into the big city, Zervos was already then, bright and relatively sophisticated.

Q: Would you go into a bedroom with Trump when you were supposed to be having a 'Business Meeting', and meekly lie down on the bed when asked, after he had kissed you on your mouth without consent?

But, anyway:

No sooner had Ms Zervos made her press conference allegations, her own cousin - issued a statement saying that he was 'shocked' by her claims:

John Barry - who is said to be 'close to her' said:

"I am completely shocked and bewildered by my cousin, Summer Zervos, and her press conference today. Ever since she was on The Apprentice she has had nothing but glowing things to say about Mr. Trump,” the statement reads.

Barry said that Zervos frequently described Trump as kind and an inspiration to her professionally, and that she “converted her friends and our family to become Trump supporters.”

“That was until Summer invited Mr. Trump to her restaurant during the primary and he said no. I think Summer wishes she could still be on reality TV, and in an effort to get that back she’s saying all of these negative things about Mr. Trump,” the statement continued.

“That’s not how she talked about him before. I can only imagine that Summer’s actions today are nothing more than an attempt to regain the spotlight at Mr. Trump’s expense, and I don’t think it reflects well.”

Further research shows that Zervos did indeed voluntarily contact Trump TWICE after the alleged assault, because the Trump campaign released an email from Zervos to Trump's secretary dated April 14, 2016, in which Zervos talks about her California restaurant and says she hopes to reconnect with the GOP nominee.

“Mr. Trump has a great deal of support in Huntington Beach, Ca!” she wrote. “He has witnessed both my highs and lows operating a small business and I am pleased to report business is good.”

She then added: “I would greatly appreciate reconnecting at this time. He will know my intentions are genuine.”

Q: Would you voluntarily seek another 'Business Meeting' with Trump after he had already sexually assaulted you several times during your first 'Business Meeting'?

Q: Would you word your email in such a way as that above?

After Trump IGNORED her first email, on the 21st April 2016 - just one week after her first email, and hardly allowing time for such a busy high flier as Trump to respond - Zervos then sent a further email with a request that it be delivered DIRECTLY to Trump.

She wrote:

"In that email, I stated, 'Your interest in me as a potential employee meant the world to me. Your interest in me as anything more blew my mind, and I lost my footing.' I further said, 'I have been incredibly hurt by our previous interaction.' I ended by stating, 'I hope to hear from you and wish you continued success.”

Trump NEVER replied.

'Blew My Mind' and 'Lost My Footing' are really curious expressions to use in an email appeal to a man who has repeatedly sexually assaulted you to describe the effects on you of the assaults - far more curious than, say, 'Shocked and upset me' and 'I was afraid and bewildered'.

In fact the phrase; 'Blew my mind' can mean 'to mentally disturb', but the more common usage today is to describe being 'overwhelmed with excitement or pleasure'.

Similarly, the phrase 'Lost my footing' is often used by authors in descriptive passages concerning love and obsession. Lolita author Vladimir Nabokov was fond of the phrase and used it in his 'Letters to Véra' in a passage about very obsessional love.

Q: Would you use such phrases to describe the effects on you of the sexual assaults he perpetrated against you?

Now, I am not Donald trump or Ms Zervos, and I do not know what really transpired between them, but I do know when something is not quite as it is being sold to us by the Media, and apart from the fact that NOWHERE does Ms Zernos seem to have complained about Trump Sexually Assaulting her until now — a few short weeks before the Presidential Election - is the fact that she voluntarily sent to Trump TWO emails virtually begging him for another 'Business Meeting' just a few short months ago.

I also doubt that because of the above, Ms Zervos cannot claim that she was timid and too afraid to say anything but was bolstered by the other women coming forward.

So shoot me if you want for questioning beyond the headlines as I ALWAYS do, but I'm sorry - something about this particular case does not sit right with me.

Here is Trump's denial:

Q: Based on the current state-of-information, do you feel that if Zervos litigates against Trump, that she stads a good chance of winning?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Donald Trump's campaign plans to go 'buck wild' and paint Bill Clinton 'as Bill Cosby'

I heard the same thing being said on media outlets just before the 2nd debate. It looks like Clinton team got there first and are just better at this kind of thing.

I totally agree - THAT is EXACTLY what I think has happened.

But this does not alter the facts, that this is NOT how Presidential Elections should be fought.

And I do not think that the allegations so suddenly being made against Trump by these women are as 'cut and dried' as the Media would have us believe.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Actually Kirk, and you should know this anyway from my anger at the treatment of Cliff Richard as to the media.

I hate trial by media and while you are right he has not been charged with anything, 'yet', and possibly may of course never be.
However we all heard he himself state in his own words that he has done this and acted this way, even towards married Women too, not that being married or single as any relevance
So by his own mouth he admits doing or showed intent on doing same.
As to evidence or lack of it, well he himself stated he did this,if he was being honest about that, little more as to more evidence other than victims coming forward are needed.

If he was only bragging to seem big and supposedly clever, then he has failed on both counts and only looks really disgusting for even publicly thinking that way and expressing same.
He also actually looks rather stupid too, if he was not being serious, again in my view.

The point still is, he claims to have done this without Womens consent or even knowledge,
A far cry from Miley Cyrus inviting it at a stage performance.

I was not having a go at you Joey - your stance on the Cliff case was exactly as mine, which is why I asked you to expound on your differing view here.

I do not GENUINELY KNOW if Trump is guilty of being a sexual predator or not, but I just know when something is not right, and there is so much with this affair which does not sit right.

Thank you for responding and welcome back.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I totally agree - THAT is EXACTLY what I think has happened.

But this does not alter the facts, that this is NOT how Presidential Elections should be fought.

And I do not think that the allegations so suddenly being made against Trump by these women are as 'cut and dried' as the Media would have us believe.

Agree this is not how the election should go but I dont think Clinton is the one who got us where we are. The comments made by Trump in the two debates and thru out the primaries he had nicknames for all his opponents lying Ted, Little Marco, Low Energy Jeb this went along way to winning the nomination. In debates Trump insults and zingers were the only lines any one could remember. Trump directly insulted Ted Cruzs wife and Carly Fiorino's appearance. Now we come to the general in his campaign team he has two of the greatest hatchet merchants in American media in Roger Ailes and Steve Bannon and they tried the same tactics of insults and innuendoes but they found the Clinton machine is better funded and better organized. I feel it is Trump who bought us to this all time low in the election.

[Withano]

Once again, I'd just like to echo what every single person in this thread bar 2 are saying and I'd also like to add that I dont really think youre thinking it through if youre saying Cyrus is more likely to be jumping on an 'i hate trump bandwagon' than Cyrus is just simply hating Trump. Like fair enough you like him, clearly.. but atleast acknowledge one of the many reasons there are to hate this guy. Its less of a bandwagon and more of a fact-train. A lot of people hate Trump, its perfectly plausible that Cyrus, Hanks or any other celeb who publicly announce this does too, its just idiotic to presume that theyre doing it to increase their likability.
Also struggling to understand your point.. I think its Cyrus isnt allowed to hate Trump cos shes a slag
And thats obviously odd.
With a side note of 'nothing is black or white apart from this view i have about miley, no arguing here'
Also odd.

I dont think you really have a point if you cant even explain it to others' understanding in about 2000 words or three pages on a forum. Its more of a cluster**** of weird musings.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by James

Even if you think Miley Cyrus has double standards, that can't be used as a defence for Trump, because, ultimately Miley's (or any celebrity's) opinion is just one voice, and everyone can make up their own minds.

Oh, I'm not using that as any 'Defence' of Trump James - merely trying to point out just how weak and useless Cyrus would be in a Court of Law for character assassination purposes if the prosecution had her take the stand against Trump.

The Defence Attorney would destroy her credibility AND assassinate her character.

Not that this would ever happen in a court, but the same applies to her being touted in the Media as some sort of 'credible' spokesperson - in my opinion.

Which - admittedly - is NOT a very popular one on here.

Then again, I was lambasted for claiming that Obama was a Muslim not a Christian as he claimed.

I was lambasted for claiming DIRECT personal knowledge of a mother on benefits with 12 children who was in receipt of over Ł700 per week benefits NOT including Housing Benefits.

I was lambasted for stating that Jihadists were being smuggled into Europe by ISIL.

etc etc.

But I was NOT wrong.

[bitontheslide]

I definitely think that the media train has been mobilised to attack Trump, I also think that celebrities have jumped on a bandwagon to attack him, when they really had no reason whatsoever to go public with their opinions.

Are they entitled to an opinion - of course, is Trump a class A despicable character - it sure looks that way, and it was that way long before the recent allegations surfaced.

The problem really is with such one sided bias, it is puzzling why there is a need for such vociferous venom. We all know Clinton is no angel, she has a very dodgy character too, so why isn't the media train active in both directions?

Personally, i would prefer them to stick to policies, because by the time either of them gets to the Whitehouse, its policy that counts, not their behaviour.

A bit like the in/out battle, it all comes down to lies, speculation and half truths being the focus and not the genuine issues.

[rusticgal]

It's all hearsay and wild accusations...nothing proven. Clintons a self conceited crook...Trump fires from the hip...I'm with the underdog...sick to death of conformity and the same old promises from fake politicians out for their own gain. Let's see REAL people take charge and maybe we will see change.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Withano

Once again, I'd just like to echo what every single person in this thread bar 2 are saying and I'd also like to add that I dont really think youre thinking it through if youre saying Cyrus is more likely to be jumping on an 'i hate trump bandwagon' than Cyrus is just simply hating Trump. Like fair enough you like him, clearly.. but atleast acknowledge one of the many reasons there are to hate this guy. Its less of a bandwagon and more of a fact-train. A lot of people hate Trump, its perfectly plausible that Cyrus, Hanks or any other celeb who publicly announce this does too, its just idiotic to presume that theyre doing it to increase their likability.
Also struggling to understand your point.. I think its Cyrus isnt allowed to hate Trump cos shes a slag
And thats obviously odd.
With a side note of 'nothing is black or white apart from this view i have about miley, no arguing here'
Also odd.

I dont think you really have a point if you cant even explain it to others' understanding in about 2000 words or three pages on a forum. Its more of a cluster**** of weird musings.

Now you have resorted to misrepresenting me - I never said anywhere that Tom Hanks or De Niro or ANY other celebrity who has spoken out about Trump was doing it to increase their likeability.

Quite THE OPPOSITE.

I used De Niro and Tom Hanks as COMPARATORS for Cyrus. If you read what I wrote, ie - They are sincere in their denouncement of Trump.

I also never called Cyrus a 'slag' - that's your Freudian slip.

There is nothing wrong with my vocabulary or my writing ability, so I'm afraid that if anyone still cannot understand what I am saying - despite my very civil reiteration to assist - then that is THEIR problem, not mine.

Or would you have me write in fractured English?

It seems as though there is an attempt to 'bully' me, by sheer weight of opposing numbers, into stating what will suit them instead of what I believe, and now into 'dumbing down' my English, writing ability, and normal writing style, just to please others.

Sorry - No can do on either count

As for 3000 words or 3 pages - this is a very complex topic and one not capable of being addressed in a short little soundbyte or a few uncorroborated comments.

Wordy or not, it seems to have held your attention thus far.

You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine, but it is noted by me, that this is not the first and only thread where you have responded to my posts with - shall I say, extraordinary 'vigour'?

I just hope that I have helped put your mind at rest on some of the points you raise in your response.

[kirklancaster]

My sincere thanks to LT, Johnny, BOTS and RusticGal, because it has felt rather lonely on here.

Thank you for some balance.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by rusticgal

It's all hearsay and wild accusations...nothing proven. Clintons a self conceited crook...Trump fires from the hip...I'm with the underdog...sick to death of conformity and the same old promises from fake politicians out for their own gain. Let's see REAL people take charge and maybe we will see change.

Supporting Donald Trump for president because he isn't a politician is like wanting an Hospital Porter to operate on you because they aren't a surgeon.

Trump is a moron that lies far more than any typical politician, in fact he's brazen about it. He'll outright deny things he's said even when confronted with evidence. Calling him a real person is a bit of a stretch given how much of a liar he is, the fact that he refuses to show his tax returns is likely because he is lying about his wealth too.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

My sincere thanks to LT, Johnny, BOTS and RusticGal, because it has felt rather lonely on here.

Thank you for some balance.

People are allowed to disagree with you, I don't see you complaining about 'balance' when you're 'teaming up' with other members against Kizzy for example...

This is the debates section, Kirk. If you aren't willing to stand your ground and defend your point of view then it might not be the right section for you.

[Withano]

Nobody is trying to bully you. You cant call it bullying just because there are a large amount of people on the opposing side to you. Christ, people are just trying to decode your weird thread, which has caught my attention for all the wrong reasons - its genuinely completely insane. people dont only visit threads they completely agree with, discussions are usually formed by having 2 opposing opinions, you cant cry bully when people dont understand your obscure argument. Im not trying to dumb down what youve said, i genuinely have no idea what your argument is and assumed i was pretty close with my paraphrasing. Im certain its not actually a complex topic though. Its just you dismissing cyrus because of a three second video.