[Christmas Dynasnow]

President Donald Trump's administration on Wednesday revoked landmark guidance to public schools letting transgender students use the bathrooms of their choice, reversing a signature initiative of former Democratic President Barack Obama.

Reversing the Obama guidelines stands to inflame passions in the latest conflict in America between believers in traditional values and social progressives, and is likely to prompt more of the street protests that followed Trump's Nov. 8 election.

Obama had instructed public schools last May to let transgender students use the bathrooms matching their chosen gender identity, threatening to withhold funding for schools that did not comply. Transgender people hailed the step as victory for their civil rights.

Trump, a Republican who took office last month, rescinded those guidelines, even though they had been put on hold by a federal judge, arguing that states and public schools should have the authority to make their own decisions without federal interference.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us...-idUSKBN161243

The White House said President Donald Trump believes the issue is for the states to decide without federal involvement.

The White House released a statement in January which said: "President Donald J Trump is determined to protect the rights of all Americans, including the LGBTQ community.

"President Trump continues to be respectful and supportive of LGBTQ rights, just as he was throughout the election."


http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world...-a3473786.html

Donald getting rid of Big Government interference and giving powers back to the people.

Thoughts?

[Vicky.]

Bloody hell, something he does that I agree with 100%

Loos, changing rooms, etc are separated by SEX, not gender...which amounts to not much more than dress sense and ones personality. And should remain so. Fair enough once someone has had a 'sex change' but before that and on self identification only..a whole world of nope.

Schools should not be forced to let boys into girl changing rooms. We are having issues with my stepdaughters school and this at the moment despite our laws not saying schools have to. Basically a pervy lad has decided he is now a girl and as such is let in the girls areas. the girls are up in arms as this lad has form for basically..being a perv. And the school are just enabling it. A group of girls are currently changing in the small staff room as they refuse to change infront of him. This same group are being called transphobic by a small group of young liberals. Its a bit of a mess tbh

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Bloody hell, something he does that I agree with 100%

Exactly what I was going to say. It's a bit of a shocker, really...

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Exactly what I was going to say. It's a bit of a shocker, really...

This was one of the issues that I was polar opposite with Obama on. I do not think 'gender' (which is dress sense, personality, and a 'feeling' in ones head) should trump sex ever. Its just nonsensical. Why have separate areas for males and females, when its not in all cases?! Why not have everything communal?

I mean, in this country we have violent male prisoners, hell male prisoners who are in prison for/have raped females put in with the females because...feelings. **** that.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

This was one of the issues that I was polar opposite with Obama on. I do not think 'gender' (which is dress sense, personality, and a 'feeling' in ones head) should trump sex ever. Its just nonsensical. Why have separate areas for males and females, when its not in all cases?! Why not have everything communal?

I mean, in this country we have violent male prisoners, hell male prisoners who are in prison for/have raped females put in with the females because...feelings. **** that.

At work the toilets are non-gender specific. If I go to a gay club with my friends, the toilets are non-gender specific, certainly in 'Heaven'... everyone seems to be able to get on with it without the sky falling down.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Livia

At work the toilets are non-gender specific. If I go to a gay club with my friends, the toilets are non-gender specific, certainly in 'Heaven'... everyone seems to be able to get on with it without the sky falling down.

Yeah our toilets here are non gender specific but they're individual rooms

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Livia

At work the toilets are non-gender specific. If I go to a gay club with my friends, the toilets are non-gender specific, certainly in 'Heaven'... everyone seems to be able to get on with it without the sky falling down.

Well yes, this is the point. Either get rid of 'sex' separated loos...or don't. But it makes not a bit of sense to keep sex segregation...but not in some cases? Personally I would prefer mixed loos, less queues tbh

The loos aren't really the issue for me. Its more, changing rooms and places like prisons, crisis centres and that.

Also in schools...loos ARE an issue. IMO anyway. I can remember being a teenager/younger. I would have been mortified starting my period and trying to sort that out with a boy looking over the cubicle at me I was mortified even without that

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Bloody hell, something he does that I agree with 100%

Loos, changing rooms, etc are separated by SEX, not gender...which amounts to not much more than dress sense and ones personality. And should remain so. Fair enough once someone has had a 'sex change' but before that and on self identification only..a whole world of nope.

Schools should not be forced to let boys into girl changing rooms. We are having issues with my stepdaughters school and this at the moment despite our laws not saying schools have to. Basically a pervy lad has decided he is now a girl and as such is let in the girls areas. the girls are up in arms as this lad has form for basically..being a perv. And the school are just enabling it. A group of girls are currently changing in the small staff room as they refuse to change infront of him. This same group are being called transphobic by a small group of young liberals. Its a bit of a mess tbh

Omg that's crazy.Tbf many lads at school when i was there would've tried that on.The school should have more sense than to pander to it.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Bloody hell, something he does that I agree with 100%

Loos, changing rooms, etc are separated by SEX, not gender...which amounts to not much more than dress sense and ones personality. And should remain so. Fair enough once someone has had a 'sex change' but before that and on self identification only..a whole world of nope.

Schools should not be forced to let boys into girl changing rooms. We are having issues with my stepdaughters school and this at the moment despite our laws not saying schools have to. Basically a pervy lad has decided he is now a girl and as such is let in the girls areas. the girls are up in arms as this lad has form for basically..being a perv. And the school are just enabling it. A group of girls are currently changing in the small staff room as they refuse to change infront of him. This same group are being called transphobic by a small group of young liberals. Its a bit of a mess tbh

I agree entirely - always thought it was a terrible idea.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Bloody hell, something he does that I agree with 100%

Loos, changing rooms, etc are separated by SEX, not gender...which amounts to not much more than dress sense and ones personality. And should remain so. Fair enough once someone has had a 'sex change' but before that and on self identification only..a whole world of nope.

Schools should not be forced to let boys into girl changing rooms. We are having issues with my stepdaughters school and this at the moment despite our laws not saying schools have to. Basically a pervy lad has decided he is now a girl and as such is let in the girls areas. the girls are up in arms as this lad has form for basically..being a perv. And the school are just enabling it. A group of girls are currently changing in the small staff room as they refuse to change infront of him. This same group are being called transphobic by a small group of young liberals. Its a bit of a mess tbh

The problem I have with this is that there are so many cases of transgender people who aren't allowed to complete their sex reassignment surgery so it's not always as simple as that. I think I've mentioned before my friend who is female to male transgender, he underwent hormone treatment, was given the surgery to have his breasts removed, but he was denied his final surgery (for complicated reasons that I don't fully understand tbh and I haven't really asked him for the specific details lol, it's pretty upsetting for him to talk about, but it was something to do with failing part of a psychological assessment near the end of the process I think), but because of that his 'sex' is technically still female but he's absolutely a man and if you met him you wouldn't think otherwise. In fact if he used a female bathroom he'd probably be reported


I understand what some people are saying about how some men may use laws like this to perv on women etc but every single system/institution/law in the world has examples of abuses within it and I don't think we should rule on whether a system should be in place because of those people. We deal with those people and those situations when they happen but have the systems in place to benefit the majority who are just decent people who want to live their lives.

All that needs to happen with something like this is that if a non transgender student tries to abuse the system to use the wrong bathroom, they get punished. I don't understand why girls would feel uncomfortable if there are male to female transgender students using the female bathroom, unless the discomfort is to do with transgender people, but it's steps like the Obama policy that help things like that seem more 'normal' and less of an issue/something to feel uncomfortable about, it happens over time though. And yes there's examples like the pervy boy using the girls changing room and I completely understand those fears but I honestly think that rather than situations like that growing and getting worse, the opposite will be true because the closer society gets to normalising transgenderism, people will see it less as something to pretend to be and more as something that people just are. And if I'm wrong and it turned out that hordes of male students were using it to be perverts, and 'fake transgenderism' became a major problem, then the order can be rescinded.

But it's like when gay rights were a big issue and laws were changing there were a lot of fears about the 'promotion' of being gay, that more people would decide to be gay, that gay people would be more dangerous to society because of their lifestyles etc etc, and there will have been odd examples to back up those fears, but things were changed regardless and life for gay people is dramatically better today than it was say 20 or 30 years ago, and the fears turned out to be unfounded. I know it's not exactly the same but there's fears when anything big like this changes, the way I see it though is there's huge potential benefits in terms of making big changes in society's attitudes and for the lives of transgender people, (and something does need to change considering the shocking suicide rate) the majority of who are just decent ordinary people who shouldn't be punished because some people (just as in any 'group' of people) are bad.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

The problem I have with this is that there are so many cases of transgender people who aren't allowed to complete their sex reassignment surgery so it's not always as simple as that. I think I've mentioned before my friend who is female to male transgender, he underwent hormone treatment, was given the surgery to have his breasts removed, but he was denied his final surgery (for complicated reasons that I don't fully understand tbh and I haven't really asked him for the specific details lol, it's pretty upsetting for him to talk about, but it was something to do with failing part of a psychological assessment near the end of the process I think), but because of that his 'sex' is technically still female but he's absolutely a man and if you met him you wouldn't think otherwise. In fact if he used a female bathroom he'd probably be reported


I understand what some people are saying about how some men may use laws like this to perv on women etc but every single system/institution/law in the world has examples of abuses within it and I don't think we should rule on whether a system should be in place because of those people. We deal with those people and those situations when they happen but have the systems in place to benefit the majority who are just decent people who want to live their lives.

All that needs to happen with something like this is that if a non transgender student tries to abuse the system to use the wrong bathroom, they get punished. I don't understand why girls would feel uncomfortable if there are male to female transgender students using the female bathroom, unless the discomfort is to do with transgender people, but it's steps like the Obama policy that help things like that seem more 'normal' and less of an issue/something to feel uncomfortable about, it happens over time though. And yes there's examples like the pervy boy using the girls changing room and I completely understand those fears but I honestly think that rather than situations like that growing and getting worse, the opposite will be true because the closer society gets to normalising transgenderism, people will see it less as something to pretend to be and more as something that people just are. And if I'm wrong and it turned out that hordes of male students were using it to be perverts, and 'fake transgenderism' became a major problem, then the order can be rescinded.

But it's like when gay rights were a big issue and laws were changing there were a lot of fears about the 'promotion' of being gay, that more people would decide to be gay, that gay people would be more dangerous to society because of their lifestyles etc etc, and there will have been odd examples to back up those fears, but things were changed regardless and life for gay people is dramatically better today than it was say 20 or 30 years ago, and the fears turned out to be unfounded. I know it's not exactly the same but there's fears when anything big like this changes, the way I see it though is there's huge potential benefits in terms of making big changes in society's attitudes and for the lives of transgender people, (and something does need to change considering the shocking suicide rate) the majority of who are just decent ordinary people who shouldn't be punished because some people (just as in any 'group' of people) are bad.

See..how I think on this is that people like your friend will have been using their preferred sex areas for years and noone will have been any the wiser. if you 'pass', noone will bat an eyelid. People like your friend do not need laws passed that allow basically anyone access to the opposite sex areas. This push for self identification I just don't understand. 'Genuine' transfolk...they do not need these laws as they are just quietly getting on with their lives, not shouting on about how unfair everything is. So who exactly do these laws help? I know 2 transwomen who are disgusted at the way some have been going on recently and feel that the way this is going is going to harm them in the long run...as they have never had any issues, never been 'called out' or anything, probably as they do 'pass', or one definitely does, the other you may do a bit of a double take but realistically, noone is going to say anything about a masculine looking woman in the loo/changing area as you do get masculine looking females...so unless (if she still had a dick) she was swinging a penis around or something, again it wouldn't be an issue. So basically, IMO the only people these self-identification laws will help, are those who wish to abuse it.

So if there has to be a blanket rule so to speak..I would go for post-srs is fine. But before all of the transactivists started bleating on about self identification and gender trumping sex...everything was ticking along pretty nicely. Its kind of an honour system...genuine transgender people will use where ever they feel they fit in best. A law is not needed for this. A law only allows pervs to take advantage

Obviously this wouldn't be the case in schools as everyone in the school would know what sex the kid actually was unless they started transitioning as a toddler (which is ****ing wrong) but I don't really see a way around this except for having a further option for 'transkids' or letting them use staff facilities if they don't want to use the ones for their own sex. The answer definitely is NOT to remove funding for schools who refuse to let kids into either loos/changing areas. That was a ridiculously stupid move on Obamas part.

I also really dislike when gay rights are brought up in relation to this issue. Mainly as...gay people were not wanting the rights of others taken away, they simply wanted to be treat as equals. Noone else had to lose protections and such. Also so many aspects of the whole transgender thing are homophobic...so many of my friends on facebook are up in arms about it and most do not even understand why T was added onto LGB given they have nothing in common and the first 3 are sexualities where transgender is not. To explain this further...the push for 'transing' children and getting them onto (dangerous) puberty blockers...if left alone to develop the huge majority of those who are dysphoric as kids/teens will simply grow up to be gay/bi adults, not trans at all. But once on blockers 100% of people go on to 'transition' as adults. So effectively, while the transactivists push for puberty blockers and such in young people, this is little more than conversion therapy. Secondly, the treatment of lesbians by 'lesbian' transwomen (aka...straight males...) is horrendous. I personally know 3 lesbians who have had issues with this, one of those was seriously assaulted for being so 'transphobic' as to refuse to shag someone with a penis (who did not mention said penis until it was...unveiled so to speak). Apparently being a lesbian is transphobic in itself, and should be known as vagina fetishism. Cuckoo or what :S There are hundreds of stories online from lesbians of similar treatment, so I would wager a guess that this is NOT rare, its not a 'couple of crazies' and that it seems to be the current mainstream thinking among transwomen, unless its the same couple of crazies moving up and down the country and to other countries constantly treating lesbian women this way, which I doubt. It would be amusing to see a transman trying to tell gay men that they should be shagging people with vaginas otherwise they are horrible bigots...I wonder how that would go down

I actually think the problem is with those who are 'transgender' not 'transsexual'. The second are those who actually suffer crippling dysphoria and deserve sympathy and respect, those who truly do feel 'trapped in the wrong body'. The first lot, are the ones who claim there is such thing as 'lady dick' and harass lesbians for not liking penis. The second lot appear to be those pushing for access to female areas. The first have been welcome there for years...

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

See..how I think on this is that people like your friend will have been using their preferred sex areas for years and noone will have been any the wiser. if you 'pass', noone will bat an eyelid. People like your friend do not need laws passed that allow basically anyone access to the opposite sex areas. This push for self identification I just don't understand. 'Genuine' transfolk...they do not need these laws as they are just quietly getting on with their lives, not shouting on about how unfair everything is. So who exactly do these laws help? I know 2 transwomen who are disgusted at the way some have been going on recently and feel that the way this is going is going to harm them in the long run...as they have never had any issues, never been 'called out' or anything, probably as they do 'pass', or one definitely does, the other you may do a bit of a double take but realistically, noone is going to say anything about a masculine looking woman in the loo/changing area as you do get masculine looking females...so unless (if she still had a dick) she was swinging a penis around or something, again it wouldn't be an issue. So basically, IMO the only people these self-identification laws will help, are those who wish to abuse it.

So if there has to be a blanket rule so to speak..I would go for post-srs is fine. But before all of the transactivists started bleating on about self identification and gender trumping sex...everything was ticking along pretty nicely. Its kind of an honour system...genuine transgender people will use where ever they feel they fit in best. A law is not needed for this. A law only allows pervs to take advantage

Obviously this wouldn't be the case in schools as everyone in the school would know what sex the kid actually was unless they started transitioning as a toddler (which is ****ing wrong) but I don't really see a way around this except for having a further option for 'transkids' or letting them use staff facilities if they don't want to use the ones for their own sex. The answer definitely is NOT to remove funding for schools who refuse to let kids into either loos/changing areas. That was a ridiculously stupid move on Obamas part.

I also really dislike when gay rights are brought up in relation to this issue. Mainly as...gay people were not wanting the rights of others taken away, they simply wanted to be treat as equals. Noone else had to lose protections and such. Also so many aspects of the whole transgender thing are homophobic...so many of my friends on facebook are up in arms about it and most do not even understand why T was added onto LGB given they have nothing in common and the first 3 are sexualities where transgender is not. To explain this further...the push for 'transing' children and getting them onto (dangerous) puberty blockers...if left alone to develop the huge majority of those who are dysphoric as kids/teens will simply grow up to be gay/bi adults, not trans at all. But once on blockers 100% of people go on to 'transition' as adults. So effectively, while the transactivists push for puberty blockers and such in young people, this is little more than conversion therapy. Secondly, the treatment of lesbians by 'lesbian' transwomen (aka...straight males...) is horrendous. I personally know 3 lesbians who have had issues with this, one of those was seriously assaulted for being so 'transphobic' as to refuse to shag someone with a penis (who did not mention said penis until it was...unveiled so to speak). Apparently being a lesbian is transphobic in itself, and should be known as vagina fetishism. Cuckoo or what :S There are hundreds of stories online from lesbians of similar treatment, so I would wager a guess that this is NOT rare, its not a 'couple of crazies' and that it seems to be the current mainstream thinking among transwomen, unless its the same couple of crazies moving up and down the country and to other countries constantly treating lesbian women this way, which I doubt. It would be amusing to see a transman trying to tell gay men that they should be shagging people with vaginas otherwise they are horrible bigots...I wonder how that would go down

I actually think the problem is with those who are 'transgender' not 'transsexual'. The second are those who actually suffer crippling dysphoria and deserve sympathy and respect, those who truly do feel 'trapped in the wrong body'. The first lot, are the ones who claim there is such thing as 'lady dick' and harass lesbians for not liking penis. The second lot appear to be those pushing for access to female areas. The first have been welcome there for years...

I get that trans issues are different to gay issues in that sexuality isn't the issue for trans people, but in a social respect they're interlinked and I'd guess that's to do with them feeling more welcomed in and a part of the 'gay community', and I think that's because there are a lot of similarities in terms of experiences. Trans people face a lot of similar struggles to gay people such as coming out, rejection from family and friends, workplace issues etc, so since a lot of gay people also have experience of those things they can empathise in a way that straight people might not be able to. Or at least historically gay people faced those things a lot, it's obviously much better now. But yeah I've heard the "they shouldn't be included they're not like us" thing from gay people before too but in my opinion that attitude goes against the whole idea of what LGBT should be about which is just a group of people who find an affinity in each other because of similar things they've been through and are supportive of each other, not necessarily having to be limited to strict definitions of sex/gender/sexuality but like I mentioned, societal issues too. So I think comparisons are fine if there's a comparison to be made, it's not taking away from anything else or taking away from gay people, or using gay people or anything like that, and I don't think they're looking for rights to be taken away from anyone. There's a lot of things I don't really know a lot about or disagree with such as puberty blockers and transing children, but on the whole I think trans people just want to be accepted, yes there'll be groups and individuals who push for things that they probably shouldn't, but the majority are just normal people who want better lives and treatment from society. The examples you've given about lesbians' experiences and 'vagina fetishism' etc all sound awful but I'd still argue that those people aren't representative of ordinary trans people and I would be shocked if it was the mainstream thinking amongst trans people, they're just normal people and on the whole they don't think differently to you or me. It's the crazies and the perverts who attract the attention though, but they're in every walk of life and examples could be made against gay people, straight people, any group of people. I would imagine however that many trans people suffer from psychological issues and this is just me guessing but just from looking at the suicide rates there's obviously something wrong there, so maybe something like that could go some way to explaining the 'crazies', I don't know I'm just thinking out loud. Basically though I think that if we had a more trans accepting society there'd be less psychological issues amongst trans people and we'd see less examples like those not more.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I get that trans issues are different to gay issues in that sexuality isn't the issue for trans people, but in a social respect they're interlinked and I'd guess that's to do with them feeling more welcomed in and a part of the 'gay community', and I think that's because there are a lot of similarities in terms of experiences. Trans people face a lot of similar struggles to gay people such as coming out, rejection from family and friends, workplace issues etc, so since a lot of gay people also have experience of those things they can empathise in a way that straight people might not be able to. Or at least historically gay people faced those things a lot, it's obviously much better now. But yeah I've heard the "they shouldn't be included they're not like us" thing from gay people before too but in my opinion that attitude goes against the whole idea of what LGBT should be about which is just a group of people who find an affinity in each other because of similar things they've been through and are supportive of each other, not necessarily having to be limited to strict definitions of sex/gender/sexuality but like I mentioned, societal issues too. So I think comparisons are fine if there's a comparison to be made, it's not taking away from anything else or taking away from gay people, or using gay people or anything like that, and I don't think they're looking for rights to be taken away from anyone. There's a lot of things I don't really know a lot about or disagree with such as puberty blockers and transing children, but on the whole I think trans people just want to be accepted, yes there'll be groups and individuals who push for things that they probably shouldn't, but the majority are just normal people who want better lives and treatment from society. The examples you've given about lesbians' experiences and 'vagina fetishism' etc all sound awful but I'd still argue that those people aren't representative of ordinary trans people and I would be shocked if it was the mainstream thinking amongst trans people, they're just normal people and on the whole they don't think differently to you or me. It's the crazies and the perverts who attract the attention though, but they're in every walk of life and examples could be made against gay people, straight people, any group of people. I would imagine however that many trans people suffer from psychological issues and this is just me guessing but just from looking at the suicide rates there's obviously something wrong there, so maybe something like that could go some way to explaining the 'crazies', I don't know I'm just thinking out loud. Basically though I think that if we had a more trans accepting society there'd be less psychological issues amongst trans people and we'd see less examples like those not more.

It depends on your definition of trans. Do you go 'old school' and think trans means sex dysphoric folk who were born in the wrong body?

Or todays meaning that includes males who expect people to just accept their say so that they are 'women deep down' and those who say it is transphobic to think sex dysphoria is (obviously) a requirement for being trans and bleat on about how penises can be female and so on?

If the first group, I would agree and probably say that someone who is actually transsexual harassing a lesbian for sex would be very rare. The issues (as I said on the end of my ridiculously long post) are with those who claim to be trans but have no dysphoria, shout on to get their own way, make a huge fuss about entering female areas, and attempt to bully lesbian women into sleeping with males, and more specifically, males with a penis. These males are self entitled horrible little ****s and I do not think they should be lumped in with those who actually are sex dysphoric...and sadly, it seems that these people outnumber the 'transsexual' people.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Bloody hell, something he does that I agree with 100%

Loos, changing rooms, etc are separated by SEX, not gender...which amounts to not much more than dress sense and ones personality. And should remain so. Fair enough once someone has had a 'sex change' but before that and on self identification only..a whole world of nope.

Schools should not be forced to let boys into girl changing rooms. We are having issues with my stepdaughters school and this at the moment despite our laws not saying schools have to. Basically a pervy lad has decided he is now a girl and as such is let in the girls areas. the girls are up in arms as this lad has form for basically..being a perv. And the school are just enabling it. A group of girls are currently changing in the small staff room as they refuse to change infront of him. This same group are being called transphobic by a small group of young liberals. Its a bit of a mess tbh

Yes Vicky it was a Mess
Trump sorts out a mess,

[ChristmasNeeve]

I actually agreed with it for a while but Vicky changed my mind on it when she went deeper into the potential issues with it that I hadn't really considered before. I'm all for protecting transgenders rights but not at the expense of womens rights/right to feel safe.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I actually agreed with it for a while but Vicky changed my mind on it when she went deeper into the potential issues with it that I hadn't really considered before. I'm all for protecting transgenders rights but not at the expense of womens rights/right to feel safe.

and men would be put into a difficult situation too

[Cal.]

They should just have unisex ones where everyone goes together.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Cal.

They should just have unisex ones where everyone goes together.

For adults, I 100% agree. For teens though, not so much.

[Glenn-C]

Originally Posted by Cal.

They should just have unisex ones where everyone goes together.

.

[Greg!]

Originally Posted by Cal.

They should just have unisex ones where everyone goes together.

This

[Denver]

Originally Posted by Cal.

They should just have unisex ones where everyone goes together.

perverts would love that

[Livia]

Not sure I feel the same about transgenders in prison, I think that's a whole new discussion. I think there should be provision made for them... not sure whether they should altomatically be able to use their chosen toilet. It's a minefield I know...

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Livia

Not sure I feel the same about transgenders in prison, I think that's a whole new discussion. I think there should be provision made for them... not sure whether they should altomatically be able to use their chosen toilet. It's a minefield I know...

It is a minefield, I'm all for equality and am very sympathetic to transgenders, it most be very hard for them but we also have to consider womens rights and their right to feel safe. I think someone pointed this out in another thread already but you never ever hear of a transgender woman wanting to be moved into a mens prison ........

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Not sure I feel the same about transgenders in prison, I think that's a whole new discussion. I think there should be provision made for them... not sure whether they should altomatically be able to use their chosen toilet. It's a minefield I know...

There are enough transgender prisoners (or who claim they are transgender) to have a separate wing in a couple of prisons up and down the country I am sure. This seems the only option. I do not think females should be thrown under the bus on this issue, which seems to be whats happening and with no resistance.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

There are enough transgender prisoners (or who claim they are transgender) to have a separate wing in a couple of prisons up and down the country I am sure. This seems the only option. I do not think females should be thrown under the bus on this issue, which seems to be whats happening and with no resistance.

Beat me